Help with sluggish response - Ford Bronco Forum
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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 07:58 AM Thread Starter
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Help with sluggish response

Alright, appealing to the masses for some ideas. I've had it the shop with no luck. Symptoms were wanting to stall at WOT, engine revs and tachs to 3K but does not accelerate, sluggish overall performance. I was getting P0174 and P0171.

Here is what I've done (some general maint. not all related to this issue) - fuel filter, fuel pump, plugs, cleaned TB, new PCV, cleaned MAF, checked distributor. No luck.

Took it to the shop, they found and fixed a vacuum leak and told me the cats were plugged. Had both forward and rear cats replaced. Codes are now gone but still not running right. Almost feels as if the tranny isn't kicking down and I'm getting some hard shifts but without any codes now, I'm not sure where to start.

Suggestions?

1996 Black XLT Sport - 351W, Borla Exhaust, 4'' Dick Cepek Lift, Skyjacker Coils, Bilsteins, 35'' BFG's, Warn Manual Hubs, K&N Intake, Hella Black Magic Lights, Mythical Signal Mirrors
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 08:40 AM
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I would start with a fuel press ck. Also recheck the MAF and timing. I would lean towards the MAF or fuel pressure.
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 09:11 AM
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yo kaised,

E4OD Limp Mode; "...If all the shifts are hard, the computer is going into limp mode which causes the trans to shift hard because the pressures are increased. The computer goes into limp mode when it senses an error in the transmission shifting or electrical system. The most common cause for this is the Manual Lever Position/Transmission Range (MLPS/TR) Sensor.
This is the sensor that is bolted to the drivers side of the transmission case with the shift lever arm going through the center of the sensor. Try disconnecting the battery for 15 minutes with the headlamps on. This should clear the limp mode and return the transmission to normal shift strategy. If it does then the problem is intermittent. If it still shifts hard then the fault is continuously occurring. It is possible that there is another input/output signal problem, but 99% of the time it is the range sensor especially if it clears limp mode proving the problem is intermittent..."

"E4OD Nagging Neutral Nonsense & Pinpoint Test, Manual Lever Position (MLPS) also called Transmission Range (TR) Sensor. "...One of the most-difficult problems to diagnose on a Ford car or truck is a sudden neutral condition while the vehicle is cruising in 4th gear. Now this can have a number of causes, depending on which transmission is in the car or truck, but the cause we are going to discuss here is that #(~! *&A% Manual Lever Position Sensor – that’s right, the old MLPS. This sensor is responsible for more malfunctions than any other sensor in the system, and the kicker is that it seldom stores a code
See Diagrams & instructions
Source: by Pete L at http://www.transonline.com/transdige...ers/index.html


and fyi, more on this;
Description & Operation ifrom 1996 F-Series and Bronco Equipped with E4OD and 4R70W Transmissions Workshop Manual; E4OD, 4R70W, Diagnosis & Testing, Removal & Installation, Adjustments, Wiring Diagram, Specifications & Special Service Tools & Equipment; Symptoms: Engine Will Not Crank in Either PARK or NEUTRAL, Engine Cranks with Transmission Range Selector Lever in Ranges Other Than PARK or NEUTRAL, Backup Lamps Inoperative, Harsh Shifts, Firm Engagements, Improper Shift
Harsh Shifts, Firm Engagements, Improper Shift
Harness connector not seated properly; harness damaged, corroded.
INSPECT for damage. SERVICE as required.

TR sensor misadjusted, damaged.
ADJUST TR sensor. REFER to Transmission Range (TR) Sensor in the Adjustments portion of this section. PERFORM On-Board Diagnostics. PERFORM Pinpoint Test A. SERVICE as required.

Instead, this is easier to do; Testing w/Connector Pin-Out Diagram
Source: by SeattleFSB (Seattle FSB) at http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/863652

===========

P0171 - System to Lean (Bank 1) The Adaptive Fuel Strategy continuously monitors fuel delivery hardware. The test fails when the adaptive fuel tables reach a rich calibrated limit. For lean and rich DTCs:
Fuel system
Excessive fuel pressure.
Leaking/contaminated fuel injectors.
Leaking fuel pressure regulator (pull vac line to FPR, any gas or gas aroma means diaphram ruptured; replace).
Low fuel pressure or running out of fuel.
Vapor recovery system.
Induction system:
Air leaks after the MAF.
Vacuum Leaks.
PCV system.
Improperly seated engine oil dipstick.
EGR system:
Leaking gasket.
Stuck EGR valve.
Leaking diaphragm or EVR.
Base Engine:
Oil overfill.
Cam timing.
Cylinder compression.
Exhaust leaks in the exhaust manifold or gasket or mating gasket before or near the heated oxygen sensor(s) (HO2S)
.


P0174 - System to Lean (Bank 2) The Adaptive Fuel Strategy continuously monitors the fuel delivery hardware. The test fails when the adaptive fuel tables reach a rich calibrated limit. See Possible Causes for DTC P0171.

96 XL 5.0 E4OD, Man Xfer/Hubs
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THANKS to ALL WHO SERVE!

my broncolinks.com was "disturbed"; but some sections are archived @ [url]http://web.archive.org/web/20121009110424/http://www.broncolinks.com/index.php
select a LINK, Right Click & Hit Properties; copy the second HTTP address; paste in a new browser window or Tab to see original page


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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 09:35 AM Thread Starter
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Great - thank you, gives me a couple of places to start. Miesk - cannot tell you how much info I've got through your links site - appreciate the years of help!

1996 Black XLT Sport - 351W, Borla Exhaust, 4'' Dick Cepek Lift, Skyjacker Coils, Bilsteins, 35'' BFG's, Warn Manual Hubs, K&N Intake, Hella Black Magic Lights, Mythical Signal Mirrors
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-10-2012, 10:09 AM
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yo KAISED,
TY & GL!
It's been an adventure, right?

btw, dad and grandad had a farm in Union. All info on location was lost when mom moved and movers lost a few boxes of photo albums, and bith certs, etc.

96 XL 5.0 E4OD, Man Xfer/Hubs
USN & DoD Planner (ret)
THANKS to ALL WHO SERVE!

my broncolinks.com was "disturbed"; but some sections are archived @ [url]http://web.archive.org/web/20121009110424/http://www.broncolinks.com/index.php
select a LINK, Right Click & Hit Properties; copy the second HTTP address; paste in a new browser window or Tab to see original page


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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-10-2012, 04:04 PM Thread Starter
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Ouch, no replacing family history, that sucks. Beautiful area though...

Replaced the MLPS today (not a big fan of throwing parts at a problem but it was fairly cheap) - no dice, same symptoms and no CEL or codes. Going to try and test the MAF tomorrow but think that would throw a code if bad. Also need to find a fuel pressure gauge. I'll nail it down eventually.

1996 Black XLT Sport - 351W, Borla Exhaust, 4'' Dick Cepek Lift, Skyjacker Coils, Bilsteins, 35'' BFG's, Warn Manual Hubs, K&N Intake, Hella Black Magic Lights, Mythical Signal Mirrors
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 01:31 PM Thread Starter
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OK, back to the top with this one. I've tested the MAF with a multimeter, seems to be functioning properly, signal increases with RPM, drops when off the gas. Tested the fuel pressure, also up to spec. Whether in or out of gear, it bogs at high rpm, but when in gear/under load it is much more apparent. Any other suggestions? Cap and rotor are cheap so I'm going to replace that but otherwise running out of ideas...

1996 Black XLT Sport - 351W, Borla Exhaust, 4'' Dick Cepek Lift, Skyjacker Coils, Bilsteins, 35'' BFG's, Warn Manual Hubs, K&N Intake, Hella Black Magic Lights, Mythical Signal Mirrors
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaised View Post
Tested the fuel pressure, also up to spec.
What did you get? KOEO, and KOER?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaised View Post
in or out of gear, it bogs at high rpm, but when in gear/under load it is much more apparent. Any other suggestions? Cap and rotor are cheap so I'm going to replace that but otherwise running out of ideas...
When was the last time the ignitions wires were changed?
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 02:56 PM Thread Starter
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KOEO was 36 with no bleed down, KOER was 30. High revving dropped it to around 20.

Wires have been replaced in the past few years and are quality ford racing wires.

I've been searching more and am thinking maybe TPS? I do not have a digital multimeter though so testing is out for now.

1996 Black XLT Sport - 351W, Borla Exhaust, 4'' Dick Cepek Lift, Skyjacker Coils, Bilsteins, 35'' BFG's, Warn Manual Hubs, K&N Intake, Hella Black Magic Lights, Mythical Signal Mirrors
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
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KOEO was 36 with no bleed down, KOER was 30. High revving dropped it to around 20.
There's your problem.....
Should be about 40 KOEO, and about 32 or higher with the engine running. And when it's revved, it should GO UP.

Did you pull the vacuum line off the pressure regulator while it was running?
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 04:23 PM Thread Starter
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First off, appreciate the help here.

Vacuum line off, just double checked my readings: KOEO 37/38, running 39/40, still drops to 20 when revved hard. First set of readings were with the vac line on. Mind you all of this is revving in park, which at the high end of this, is where I start getting the bogging, more so when under heavy load driving.

1996 Black XLT Sport - 351W, Borla Exhaust, 4'' Dick Cepek Lift, Skyjacker Coils, Bilsteins, 35'' BFG's, Warn Manual Hubs, K&N Intake, Hella Black Magic Lights, Mythical Signal Mirrors
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 04:30 PM
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Well, your fuel pump is either bad, or the filter is clogged. You said you replaced the fuel pump, did you do it yourself and when?
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 04:37 PM Thread Starter
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Filter was just swapped a week or two ago, early in the stages of trying to fix this. I did replace the fuel pump myself - prob 2 years ago. Could this be the FPR? Just trying to understand why that would not be a possible culprit?

1996 Black XLT Sport - 351W, Borla Exhaust, 4'' Dick Cepek Lift, Skyjacker Coils, Bilsteins, 35'' BFG's, Warn Manual Hubs, K&N Intake, Hella Black Magic Lights, Mythical Signal Mirrors
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaised View Post
Filter was just swapped a week or two ago, early in the stages of trying to fix this. I did replace the fuel pump myself - prob 2 years ago. Could this be the FPR? Just trying to understand why that would not be a possible culprit?
Yes it could be a possible culprit, but usually when they go bad, they'll spit gas once the line is pulled.
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 04:59 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, no gas spat, vacuum line looked dry. Guess I will start with the fuel pump. Thanks again.

1996 Black XLT Sport - 351W, Borla Exhaust, 4'' Dick Cepek Lift, Skyjacker Coils, Bilsteins, 35'' BFG's, Warn Manual Hubs, K&N Intake, Hella Black Magic Lights, Mythical Signal Mirrors
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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 05:02 PM
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Two years is relatively short life span. Do you run your truck close to empty a lot?
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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaised View Post
Filter was just swapped a week or two ago, early in the stages of trying to fix this. I did replace the fuel pump myself - prob 2 years ago. Could this be the FPR? Just trying to understand why that would not be a possible culprit?
Have you pulled the vacuum line off the FPR and smelled for gas? I just followed Seattles link for testing and cleaning the IAC valve, cleaned it before but forgot it's been awhile and it was dirty inside, and now when I hit WOT it takes off without the "hesitation" and the big noise little performance issue it had previously. I want to test the TPS sensor next and even though I have the non-adjustable type I want to check the readings and possibly elongate the stock hole in the sensor like Seattle did to hit the sweet spot because he said it also got rid of the bad idle and sluggishness he was experiencing..... -Kevin-

Oh, what about the plastic line going to the EGR & the FPR, are they in good shape?

http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/show...t=tps+cleaning

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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 05:12 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, rarely has more than a 1/4 tank - it's a toy, not a DD so I usually just gas up before taking it anywhere. And it sat for quite a while close to empty, but when I first started running it after about a year of sitting, it ran like a champ. Just recently did it start having this issue.

1996 Black XLT Sport - 351W, Borla Exhaust, 4'' Dick Cepek Lift, Skyjacker Coils, Bilsteins, 35'' BFG's, Warn Manual Hubs, K&N Intake, Hella Black Magic Lights, Mythical Signal Mirrors
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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 05:19 PM
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Well, definitely look into the fuel pump. I'm certain thats where your issue is.

Test your voltage to the pump you drop the tank. Make sure the pump is getting a full 12 volts.
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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-22-2013, 07:30 PM Thread Starter
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Back to working on this after a break this winter - fuel pump replaced - no luck. It will rev all the way to 6k under partial throttle but if you mash the pedal, WOT, it will bog and not go past 2.5/3k and start hesitating. Symptoms of a bad TPS maybe? Any other thoughts?

1996 Black XLT Sport - 351W, Borla Exhaust, 4'' Dick Cepek Lift, Skyjacker Coils, Bilsteins, 35'' BFG's, Warn Manual Hubs, K&N Intake, Hella Black Magic Lights, Mythical Signal Mirrors
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