Bigger Tie Rods + Tie Rod Flip - Ford Bronco Forum
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post #1 of 51 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 09:25 PM Thread Starter
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Bigger Tie Rods + Tie Rod Flip

Im sure quite a few of us had problems with bending tierods. Ive bent mine on my truck when i still had only 2" of lift, but now that i have a 6" lift i figuered it was time to do a tie rod end flip. Quite a few of us have done the TRE flip already but still use stock everythnig else. I found a thread awhile ago about upgrading to bigger tie rods and nobody seems to be aware of. So i thought i would do a write up on me doing mine.

Here are the tierod parts i used (by Moog part number):

Long Inner Tie Rod (Passenger Side): DS1073
Short Inner Tie Rod (Driver Side): DS1072
Right Tie Rod End (Passenger Side): ES2396R
Left Tie Rod End (Driver Side): ES3203L
Right Adjsuting Sleeve (Passenger Side): ES2012S
Left Adjsuting Sleeve (Driver Side): ES2079S

REFER TO SECOND POST FOR OTHER BRAND PART NUMBERS

For the TRE Flip i used a reamer i bought on ebay for 70$. it needs to be a 1-1/2" taper AKA 7.15* taper. Its kind of expensive of a one use tool but it is needed to do the TRE Flip. Also it really helps to buy the Knuckle conversion sleeves to prevent from houglassing the hole after reaming. They can be bought at JBG HERE.
For the actuall TRE Flip instructions, this thread pretty much explains it better than i could. http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/show...light=TRE+Flip.


Stock steering after 6" lift. The long passenger side inner tie rod was slightly bent but not easily seen in the picture, I wanted to do a Tie Rod End flip to help straighten my steering out, Tie Rods were worn out. Figuered it was a perfect time to upgrade the steering. On the floor is the new bigger tie rods. they definatly are quite ticker than stock so they shouldnt bend nearly as easy.

I wont cover how to remove the tie rods. Its pretty easy jsut to bang them out with a hammer once the nut is removed. The stud going into the pitman arm can be very difficult and best bet is a pickel fork.Ii didnt have a one with me so i used a big adjsutable wrench as one



Comparision of the short (driver side) Inner Tie Rods with Tie rod ends attached. The new ones were perfect length, left alot of adjsutment in the sleeves for in and out. Try and keep both sides of the sleeves with an equal amount of threads. The picture doesnt really show but the new rods are defenitly stronger looking.


Comparison of thickness of the driver side Inner Tie Rods. The wrench shows the thickness of the new rod over the old. The new rod has a thinkness of about 7/8 of an inch compared to the stock wehich was about 3/4 of an inch. It doesnt sound like much more but it should help alot in strength.


Comparision of the long (passenger side) Inner Tie Rods with Tie Rod Ends attached. The new ones were perfect length also, left alot of adjsutment in the sleeves for in and out. Try and keep both sides of the sleeves with an equal amount of threads. The picture somewhat shows that the new rods are defenitly stronger looking. Might also be able to see that the stock rod was slightly bent in some areas



Comparison of thickness of the passenger side Inner Tie Rods. The wrench shows the thickness of the new rod over the old. The new rod has a thinkness of about 1-1/4 inchs compared to the stock which was about 1 inch. It should help alot in strength.



This was for doing my Tie Rod End Flip. It places the TREs on the top of the knuckle instead of the bottom which raises them about 3" and can really help the strenght of your steering if you have a lift but no drop pitman arm. If you arn't doing the TRE Flip you can ignore the next few pictures.

Using a Reamer with 1-1/2" Taper AKA 7.15* Degree Taper, you ream the top of the hole till you can fit the TRE Conversion Sleeves all the way in. I bought the reamer on ebay for about 60$ shipping and i bought the conversion sleaves from JBG. Use cutting oil when reaming to prevent burning it up and go slowly.



The hole after reaming and putting in the conversion sleeve.



The conversion sleeve in. I reamed alittle too much on this side but it shouldnt have any problems. The point of the sleeves are to prevent making the hole into an hourglass shape which can make the TRE not stay in place as good.



Put the Tie Rod End in and tighten the nut and put the cotter pin in.



Do the other side. I went ahead and also put the Tie Rod on the pitman arm.



Put the driver side tie rod on the passenger side, put the nut on and tighten up. The hole for my cotter pin was too far away from the nut to catch it. I put another nut on backwardsso i can put the cotter pin in and it would prevent the first nut from backing loose.



Finished. The TRE Flip really helped out weither you can see or not. The angle of the tie rods is significantly less which should help in strenght and turning. Everything worked out perfectly.

I did a quick DIY alignment using a tape measure to the center of the tires and got them as close as i could. It pulled alittle but should hold me over till i go get a real alignment.


it is a bit of an expensive upgrade. Probably best for when your exsiting is worn or bad. The joint studs are all the same size as stock. This can make it possible to do one side before the other if for some reason it was needed. This is a great upgrade weither you do the TRE Flip or not.


-----96 5.0 E4OD--------------88 5.8 C6--------------96 5.8 E4OD------
---------KIA-------------------Mud/Trail---------------Daily Driver------
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post #2 of 51 (permalink) Old 10-27-2012, 06:51 PM Thread Starter
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Here are some part numbers for different brands and there price incase Moog parts are unavalible, you want to save money or other reasons. If you find an alternative you want me to add leave a comment.

Inner Right Tie Rod
NAPA Chassis Parts #NCP 2696053 $154 (at Napa)
Master Ride Chassis #MRC DS1073 $75 (at Napa)
Driveworks #DW-DS1073 $65 (at Advance Auto Parts)
MasterPro #DS1073 $63 (at O'Reilly)
Carquest RED #RDS1073 $73 (at CarQuest)
Raybestos #410-1032 $141 (at CarQuest)
Motorcraft #MDOE-12 $152 (Ford Dealer prices)
Duralast #DS1073 $63 (Autozone)


Inner Left Tie Rod
NAPA Chassis Parts #NCP 2695094 $74 (at Napa)
Master Ride Chassis #MRC DS1072 $35 (at Napa)
Driveworks #DW-DS1072 $31 (at Advance Auto Parts)
MasterPro #DS1072 $30 (at O'Reilly)
Carquest RED #RDS1072 $38 (at CarQuest)
Raybestos #405-1041 $64 (at CarQuest)
Motorcraft #MDS-1072 $127 (Ford Dealer prices)
Duralast #DS1072 $29 (Autozone)


Outter Right Tie Rod End
NAPA Chassis Parts #NCP 2692724 $98 (at Napa)
Master Ride Chassis #MRC ES2396 $32 (at Napa)
Driveworks #DW-ES2396R $28 (at Advance Auto Parts)
MasterPro #ES2396R $27 (at O'Reilly)
Carquest RED #RES2396R $33 (at CarQuest)
Raybestos #401-1418 $93 (at CarQuest)
Motorcraft #MEOE-132 $113 (Ford Dealer prices)
Duralast #ES2396R $27 (Autozone)


Outter Left Tie Rod End
NAPA Chassis Parts #NCP 2692839 $57 (at Napa)
Master Ride Chassis #MRC ES3203L $21 (at Napa)
Driveworks #DW-ES3203L $17 (at Advance Auto Parts)
MasterPro #ES3203L $17 (at O'Reilly)
Carquest RED #RES3203L $30 (at CarQuest)
Raybestos #401-1521 $54 (at CarQuest)
Motorcraft #MES-3203L $69 (Ford Dealer prices)
Duralast #ES3203L $28 (Autozone)


Right Adjusting Sleeve Passenger Side
NAPA Chassis Parts #NCP 2691123 $32 (at Napa)
Master Ride Chassis #MRC ES2012S $15 (at Napa)
Driveworks #DW-ES2012S $11 (at Advance Auto Parts)
MasterPro #ES2012S $11 (at O'Reilly)
Carquest RED #RES2012S $14 (at CarQuest)
Raybestos #425-1011 $29 (at CarQuest)
Motorcraft #MEOE-51 $37 (Ford Dealer prices)
Duralast #ES2012S $16 (Autozone)


Left Adjusting Sleeve Driver Side
NAPA Chassis Parts #NCP 2691134 $28 (at Napa)
Master Ride Chassis #MRC ES2079S $15 (at Napa)
Driveworks #DW-ES2079S $13 (at Advance Auto Parts)
MasterPro #ES2079S $13 (at O'Reilly)
Carquest RED #RES2079S $18 (at CarQuest)
Raybestos #425-1018 $28 (at CarQuest)
Motorcraft #MEOE-54 $39 (Ford Dealer prices)
Duralast #ES2079S $22 (Autozone)


Edit: These part numbers are not 100% confirmed. if you find a problem, contact me about it

These parts are from numerous types of vehicles to get the most strengths possible. Some parts are from different years, different models, different drivetrains and even different editions.

EDIT 2:

here is the Moog website links for each part. these will display applications of which vehicles used them

http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/moog-ds1073
93-96 F250 2WD
85-97 F350 2WD

http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/moog-ds1072
85-94 F250 4WD

http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/moog-es2396r
89-97 F350 2WD
85-97 F350 2WD

http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/moog-es3203l
92-05 E-150
92-06 E-250
92-05 E-350

http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/moog-es2012s
Many and models makes used
93-96 2WD or 95-96 4WD F250 (left side)
85-97 F350 (right side)

http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/moog-es2079s
Can be reused from stock right side
80-96 Bronco or F150 (right)
80-96 2WD (right) or 80-94 4WD (left) F250
80-97 2WD F350 (right)


-----96 5.0 E4OD--------------88 5.8 C6--------------96 5.8 E4OD------
---------KIA-------------------Mud/Trail---------------Daily Driver------
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post #3 of 51 (permalink) Old 10-31-2012, 08:21 PM
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Good info! Question, Would the stock outer tre's fit on the thicker inner rods? (are the left/right couplers the same? Reason I ask is, I dont think the outers would bend and all my stuff is tight. But maybe I would benifit from changing just the long rods. I have often wondered if my rods bow sometimes when my big tires go over uneven pavement.
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post #4 of 51 (permalink) Old 10-31-2012, 08:51 PM
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If the rods bent they would STAY bent. These kinds of parts don't bend and come back. they are either straight, or fawked up.

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post #5 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-01-2012, 12:03 PM
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Is there any good reason to or not to do a TRE flip with stock height. It would be nice to get them a little higher off the ground. When I replaced them this year the rt inner (long arm) was just about rubbing on the crossmember

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post #6 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-01-2012, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helirich View Post
Good info! Question, Would the stock outer tre's fit on the thicker inner rods? (are the left/right couplers the same? Reason I ask is, I dont think the outers would bend and all my stuff is tight. But maybe I would benifit from changing just the long rods. I have often wondered if my rods bow sometimes when my big tires go over uneven pavement.
no the stock outters will not work with the new inners. if you repalce an inner, you also have to repalce the sleeve and outter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wileec View Post
Is there any good reason to or not to do a TRE flip with stock height. It would be nice to get them a little higher off the ground. When I replaced them this year the rt inner (long arm) was just about rubbing on the crossmember
since i dont have a stock height truck and dont remeber how the stearing looked back when, i cant say much. id have to see a picture. i dont imagine the angle of tie rods would be very much so the true advantage of the TRE flip wouldnt happen. its really for 4" lifts. but if can eyeball the angle with the rods on the top and see it isnt too bad of an angle you could do it.


-----96 5.0 E4OD--------------88 5.8 C6--------------96 5.8 E4OD------
---------KIA-------------------Mud/Trail---------------Daily Driver------
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post #7 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-02-2012, 05:17 PM
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My 2 cent, hope this helps. I have reamed four sets of knuckles, 2 TTB, SAS D44, and SAS D60. Best to go slow and frequently check the depth after you have wiped out the hole, and then test fit the TRE with the insert (for D44). The reamer also cuts best at slow speed with very little pressure so it doesn't grab. A variable speed 1/2 drill with handle is best. I use bearing grease to keep it from grabbing. It works better than cutting oil, but the grease holds the cuttings and must be wiped down a few times.

I reamed one of the first TTB knuckles a bit too deep and was able to use a thick, hardened washer to take-up the slack. I ran it like that for several years with no problems.

It's all about trying to get the steering rods parallel with the TTB arms. While it would be nice to move the steering up out of the way without a lift, a 4" lift minimum is required to do this, any less and the steering angles will be off. I did it with 6" lift and had to get a pitman arm with less drop. It seems to be just about perfect with a 4" lift and stock pitman arm.
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post #8 of 51 (permalink) Old 12-03-2012, 07:44 PM
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The only thing I would add is that the JBG inserts are garbage. They are thin pieces of metal and require the knuckle to be perfectly reamed to achieve the correct depth so that the knuckle doesn't suck the sleeve inside. They are the first ones I tried using and worked for a while but the rods loosened up and the TRE's started to wiggle a lot.
The RuffStuff inserts require nothing more than a 7/8ths hole drilled from the top down, and then the sleeve which has a slit down the entire side is inserted. Since the sleeve is slightly larger it adjusts down to the size of the hole perfectly and has a ridge at the top which stops it at the correct depth. All you do is tap it in till it stops and they are ten times stronger than the JBG's ones. You can tell just by looking at them!
I did the TRE-Flip on my 2.5" lift with the stock pitman arm and it lined up the rods and drag-link perfectly. Now with my 4" lift I used a drop pitman arm and it still lines up straight across..... -Kevin-

http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/.../INSSTEER.html
http://broncograveyard.com/bronco/i-...n-sleeves.html


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post #9 of 51 (permalink) Old 12-06-2012, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNBELOWBRONCO View Post
The only thing I would add is that the JBG inserts are garbage. They are thin pieces of metal and require the knuckle to be perfectly reamed to achieve the correct depth so that the knuckle doesn't suck the sleeve inside. They are the first ones I tried using and worked for a while but the rods loosened up and the TRE's started to wiggle a lot.
The JBG inserts are not garbage. They are meant to be used only to take-up some space, allowing you to ream through the knuckle, eliminate the hourglass shape, and allow for full contact between the TRE & knuckle. If you can ream the knuckle correctly and get the TRE's tight, they work well. I have done three sets with no problems. They were the only thing available for some time.

I appreciate your posting the ones available through Ruff Stuff. They offer the advantage on not buying a reamer, but you still got to borrow a buy a 7/8" bit. They look stronger, but if you can't drill a good round hole and keep the TRE's tight, you can bet they will allow the TRE to wallow around and ruin the knuckle.

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post #10 of 51 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swat View Post
The JBG inserts are not garbage. They are meant to be used only to take-up some space, allowing you to ream through the knuckle, eliminate the hourglass shape, and allow for full contact between the TRE & knuckle. If you can ream the knuckle correctly and get the TRE's tight, they work well. I have done three sets with no problems. They were the only thing available for some time.

I appreciate your posting the ones available through Ruff Stuff. They offer the advantage on not buying a reamer, but you still got to borrow a buy a 7/8" bit. They look stronger, but if you can't drill a good round hole and keep the TRE's tight, you can bet they will allow the TRE to wallow around and ruin the knuckle.
Well actually "garbage" might be a little strong of a description...lol. I drilled the knuckles without a reamer the first time and it held up okay as far as I could tell, just a little wallowing and wiggling over time, I think. You're right though back when I did mine, almost 6 yrs ago, these were what everyone was using here on FSB. With these, just drilling a 7/8ths hole enabled me to drill from the bottom up and the top down to remove any hour glass effects that may have developed since then. I used a "step drill" back then and this time too because it enabled me to push slowly and evenly and feel every level as it cut through which was much easier to drill straight because the steps are smaller than a normal drill bit. Plus, the step drill bits are great for drilling the frame and for drilling/removing factory rivets so they are a very acceptable investment and Harbor Freight has them on sale all the time. I spent a little more and bought mine at Home Depot because it is a high speed one so it lasts much longer and can withstand the heat better and took about 3-4 mins to drill each knuckle per side. The largest size was the 7/8ths so it made it easy because I could push the bit as far into the knuckle as possible from the top then just switch and drill it from the other end and it made a perfect 7/8ths hole all the way through!! -Kevin-

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post #11 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-22-2013, 08:33 AM Thread Starter
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cant say that is the best idea. i htink the threads are quite different. i can see it causing problems whenever you want to readjsut them in hte future. but i guess id rather spend the little extra for the cheapest brand ones and do stuff right rather than halfass stuff


-----96 5.0 E4OD--------------88 5.8 C6--------------96 5.8 E4OD------
---------KIA-------------------Mud/Trail---------------Daily Driver------
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post #12 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-22-2013, 03:57 PM
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...measured the tie-rod threads on a '91 F150 and '90 F250 >8500#

20mm vs 22mm

Both had 1.5mm threads = ~19 threads per inch.

390, did you have to spread the collar just a little?

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Last edited by Alvin in AZ; 01-22-2013 at 04:46 PM. Reason: Snipped out the stupid stuff. :)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helirich View Post
a) As I said, the threads were 1/8" larger.

b) I can't see prying that sleeve apart.

c) I don't think the threads would line up perfect even if they were
the same TPI. You must have had the bigger ones already.
a) 2.0mm = .079" = ~5/64" = Way closer to a 1/16" than 1/8". ;)

b) Ehhh... it won't be the weak spot, so why the fuss? ;)

c) They would line up good enough to adjust it and then line up
better/perfectly after the sleeve was clamped down hard. LOL :)

c = pi x d

20mm = ~63mm
22mm = ~69mm

Gap spread {increase needed} = ~6mm = .236" = slightly < 1/4"

I'm not -for- doing it 390's way, ok?
It's just that it's not hurting anything.

I bet a 22mm sleeve from the rust-belt is weaker than a rust-free
20mm sleeve that's been spread 6mm. ;)

see "hydrogen embrittlement"

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post #14 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-17-2013, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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As requested from somebody, I added OEM Motorcraft part numbers incase somebody wanted to use OEM Ford parts. Prices are based from Fords official parts site. I did the best I can finding part numbers and appear to be correct but I don't have 100% confirmation. If someone can confirm them to be correct, that would be great. If they are correct then I would highly recommend ordering them from other online sources as they would be much cheaper. Local Ford dealers might also have different prices than their online site


As an update, I have yet to experience any problems and the steering is in very good shape with almost no wear or damage. It has survived me jumping my truck on a motocross track several times with my 35s. Im confident they could handle bigger tires far better than the TTB could be capable of handling.


-----96 5.0 E4OD--------------88 5.8 C6--------------96 5.8 E4OD------
---------KIA-------------------Mud/Trail---------------Daily Driver------
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post #15 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-17-2013, 10:01 PM
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I thought I would post a link to a thred I started concerning this subject. If you read this far, you'll want to read it.

Not sure I know how to do this. Here goes.

New steering discovery
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post #16 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-21-2013, 09:09 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy View Post
Is this worth doing on a d44 straight with coils?

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The tierods arnt designed for straight axle, only TTB. the TRE flip however should be fine

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacked77 View Post
I'm doing the flip soon & if it helps, here's what I found out. Using all Moog parts (from RockAuto) the total comes out to $192.67. That's not including tax/shipping or the reamer.
its great that you found it cheaper. always better to save money when possible. only problem with online orders is warranty which is specifically why I choose Moog. I can walk into the parts store and get something warrantied (which I did a couple weeks ago on the entire driver side tierod). Other than warranty im not very impressed with Moog so if you order online I would recommend Motorcraft. If you do go Moog id keep the boxes because some part stores will warranty them without receipt if you still have the box. just depends on who you know


-----96 5.0 E4OD--------------88 5.8 C6--------------96 5.8 E4OD------
---------KIA-------------------Mud/Trail---------------Daily Driver------
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post #17 of 51 (permalink) Old 06-04-2014, 08:05 PM
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Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I purchased my bronco with the knuckle under TRE flip already done. The steering is pretty sloppy so I was figuring I would replace the TRE's. Since I don't know if the orignal owner installed the JBG inserts can they be added when I do the install now? If they were added, do you reuse them or replace them too? Thank you,
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all I can say is take one apart and find out. if the PO didn't use a sleeve of any kind, then that's probably the cause of loose steering as the hole is now hourglassed shape allowing it to rock. that's the point of the sleeves is to prevent this.

you can add them but u will probably have to use a reamer to make the whole deeper so it will fit all the way in.

yes the sleeves are reusable. unless somehow they got damaged that is

if you can find someone to move the steering wheel back and forth while you look, that would be the best way to find out why its loose. can bee anything


-----96 5.0 E4OD--------------88 5.8 C6--------------96 5.8 E4OD------
---------KIA-------------------Mud/Trail---------------Daily Driver------
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post #19 of 51 (permalink) Old 06-04-2014, 08:25 PM
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Kingfish999, thank you for getting back to me. If the knuckle is hour glassed, could I just drill it out to the 7/8" hole and use the other sleeves from ruffstuff to fix the problem?
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post #20 of 51 (permalink) Old 06-04-2014, 08:33 PM Thread Starter
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Palm Harbor FL
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Bronco Info: 96 Bronco (5.8 DD E4OD), 88 Bronco Mudder (Engineless), 90 F250 (Explorer 5.0 4R70W)
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ya or u can use the reamer and do the JBG. ive heard somewhere that ruffstuff stopped making there sleeves. i know a lot of people are also getting the chevy TRE sleeves mixed up also


-----96 5.0 E4OD--------------88 5.8 C6--------------96 5.8 E4OD------
---------KIA-------------------Mud/Trail---------------Daily Driver------
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  Ford Bronco Forum > Bronco Discussions > Technical Write Ups

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