All About Lockers - Page 2 - Ford Bronco Forum
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post #21 of 205 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peteyg

As I have always understood it, the wheel off the ground is generating no torque. The instant it has traction it will have torque, but when it's in the air it's just turning. All of the torque is on the other wheel. It has to have something to turn against in order to generate torque. Perhaps we're just splitting hairs here. Would you be happier if I said both wheels have equal power, but the one with more traction is doing more work?
LOL, Yes, I torwue =load, you are correct there, transmitting power equally would be a better term

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post #22 of 205 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 02:25 PM
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Great writeup and info, Mark.

Is it possible to install a mini spool in a 9" without pulling the carrier and having to set up the diff again?
I don't have the tools/expertise to set up diffs, but was wondering if I could install a mini spool on my own...
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post #23 of 205 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy351
and how many "readers rides" have you seen just sitting in a driveway or yard....

there is so much opinion being presented as fact here that it hurts my head....
I was only refering to the ones that actually wheel, not trailer queens...

BTW, I almost forgot...


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post #24 of 205 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peteyg
I have been trying really hard to present the info as straight as possible, based on what I know through real-world experience, as well as what I have seen in a wide variety of applications through the last 6 years of ever increasingly hard core wheeling. I have opinions on certain ways of doing things, and where I am presenting my opinion, I have tried to make sure I stated that it was my opinion. Some "facts" are subjective, of course, and there will always be the exception that proves the rule.

Where I have been wrong or missed things, I have added or corrected, and given credit where due. I think that's fair.
i wasn't necessarily addressing it to you, more to everyone. including myself.

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post #25 of 205 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFullSize
IBTW, I almost forgot...


HTH!!
thanks for reminding me...
heres one for you

then take 2 of these and post tomorrow


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post #26 of 205 (permalink) Old 07-29-2004, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy351

Is this a limited slip???? . . .

then take 2 of these and post tomorrow



Is this the friction modifier? . . . or are you trying to say your Bronco is on the rag . . .

In all seriousness guys, this is a pretty good thread and lets keep it that way.

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post #27 of 205 (permalink) Old 08-17-2004, 05:16 PM
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I just want to clear up the comments on the "Detroit Truetrac". I installed one in the front of my Bronco less than a month ago. It is a limited slip. It is gear based, not clutch based. If one tire is in the air getting no resistance then the tire with traction will receive no power. The information sent with the Truetrac tells you this. It says to overcome this you should lightly apply the brakes. When the tire in the air gets some resistance it will start applying torque to the wheel with traction. I go to Moab a couple times a year. I just got back. The Truetrac did help tremendously, but when one front tire was in the air it worked like an open differential.

One side note. I overheated my power steering and boiled it over while I was down there. I was suprised that even though it is a limited slip there was always a slight resistance when the wheel was turned. It always wanted to go straight. My power steering pump really whined while I was down there, and I have a power steering cooler with electric fan installed.

Detroit locker in the rear and Truetrac up front.
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post #28 of 205 (permalink) Old 02-26-2005, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Lonestar_Bronco
You might add the Detroit Truetrac, as it is a geared LSD with no clutches.
DON'T DO IT!! I had the true-trac (true trash) IMO. I had it in the rear and run 33's I blasted the 1st one in less than a year. Then got that replace under warranty. 2nd one lasted 14 months w/limited use and it was shot. It sucked

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post #29 of 205 (permalink) Old 02-27-2005, 12:08 AM
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I have a 77 f-150 w/ a 351m and running 35x15.5x15 tsl/sx's, after getting stuck a few times, I looked into getting a locker. btw, I'm a cheap bastard, I found a good deal on a powertrax lock-right (richmond gear) and had summit price match it 'cause they are closer to vegas. long story short after the install, i figured that it would break......not true so far it's been about a year and let me tell you I am very hard on my truck -not at first- just add full tank of gas, a pack of cigs and a 12 pack of keystone and a full kitchen pass from the wife, and at the end of the day "hey I think I can make that" becomes a common saying. hill climbs are always my weak spot so 45 degrees++ becomes real tempting. anyway after hitting rocks, sand mud, and everything in between, the only thing to break has been u-joints shelling out, axle shaft end yokes sheering and a mile marker supreme hub shattering....oh yea, the front driveshaft broke. so I have nothing but good things to say about powertrax lock-right lockers

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post #30 of 205 (permalink) Old 02-27-2005, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1977351
. . . the only thing to break has been u-joints shelling out, axle shaft end yokes sheering and a mile marker supreme hub shattering....oh yea, the front driveshaft broke. so I have nothing but good things to say about powertrax lock-right lockers
That all? Put in a minispool then!

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post #31 of 205 (permalink) Old 03-24-2005, 12:17 AM
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so anyone got anythign on them auburn lockers?

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post #32 of 205 (permalink) Old 04-20-2005, 08:53 PM
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I had a lock right in the front of another brand of 4x4. I also had a set of warn auto-lock hubs. these hubs made the locker drive real nice. What they are,for those who have never heard of them is a set of manual hubs. But your limited to chose between auto or locked operation. In auto they will let the axle turn slower than the wheel but not other way around. so when I was on the gas it would let the outside hub unlock and it streered better than locked hubs. I wish these hubs were available for our bronc's. If I find some good (robust looking) auto hubs for my 80 bronc I may weld my spiders together or get another lockright.
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post #33 of 205 (permalink) Old 04-21-2005, 02:16 PM
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This is a great thread. I wish I'd read it earlier, though -- the descriptions of power transfer in the basic descriptions for open, limited slip, and locked differentials are incorrect, however. These are common misconceptions, but wrong nonetheless. I work in terms of force and torque all day (structural engineer), so hopefully I can contribute a little more accurate explanation. I may change the order to make things a little easier to understand -- a limited slip actually makes more sense once you explain a locker, since it falls between an open and locked diff in operation.

An OPEN differential is a differential with no restriction to prevent the two wheels from turning at different speeds. An open differential always applies exactly the same torque to both axles. It is a common misconception that an open differential only supplies torque to the wheel with the least traction, but this simply isn't true. Both wheels will get the same amount of torque, and that torque will be limited by the least amount of traction available to either wheel. In other words, to provide a couple of examples:
  • If you have one wheel on ice with a traction capacity of 50 lb-ft, and one on clean pavement with a traction capacity of 1000 lb-ft, both axles will get 50 lb-ft of torque, which probably won't be enough to move the vehicle. The wheel with traction is getting torque, just not enough. At 100 lb-ft of total torque applied at the differential, you get wheelspin on the wheel on ice, and you cannot apply any more torque to the axle.
  • If you have one wheel in the air, both axles will get ZERO ft-lb of torque, since this is the traction capacity of the wheel in the air. You can apply NO torque to the axle, and obviously cannot move the vehicle.

A LOCKER locks the axles together, permitting NO difference in wheel speed between the two wheels. With a locker, each axle gets torque proportional to available traction, up to the total limit of traction. For example:
  • First, we take our previous ice example, with a traction capacity of 50 lb-ft for the wheel on ice, and 1000 lb-ft for the wheel on pavement. If you apply 500 lb-ft total to the differential, 50 lb-ft will go to the wheel on ice, and the remaining 450 lb-ft will go to the wheel on clean pavement. You can keep applying more torque to the axle, and it will continue sending that extra torque to the wheel on pavement, which will propel the vehicle forward until you reach the limit of traction on the good wheel. At the traction limit, you have 50 lb-ft on the icy tire and 1000 lb-ft on the good tire, giving you 1050 lb-ft to move the vehicle. Add more torque and the good tire just spins.
  • Try our example with the bad-traction tire lifted into the air again. Now, you have ZERO torque capacity on one wheel, and 1000 lb-ft on the other. The locker will transfer all axle torque to the good tire, giving you 1000 lb-ft to move the vehicle before the good wheel starts to spin too.

Open differentials and lockers are simple to describe. LIMITED SLIP DIFFERENTIALS are a little more complex. In operation, they fall partway between an open diff and a locker. The two important things to know about an LSD are bias ratio and preload.

Bias Ratio is the measure of the maximum amount of torque the differential can transfer to the good wheel compared to the bad wheel. For most limited slip differentials, this is somewhere around 3:1 to 6:1, meaning the good wheel can get three to six times the torque as the wheel with bad traction. Open and locked differentials have a bias ratio too -- an open differential has a bias ratio of 1:1, meaning both axles must have equal traction, and a locker has a bias ratio of infinity:1, since you can transfer as much torque as you want to the good tire, even with zero torque on the bad wheel. Some front wheel drive LSD's (not that most folks here would care) are designed with much lower bias ratios on the order of 1.5:1 or 2:1, to prevent harsh engagement that would jerk the steering wheel around on varying terrain.

Preload is the measure of a limited slip differential's ability to transfer torque to the good tire when there is NO traction on the bad tire. Not all LSD's have preload, as it is a feature that must be designed in, and the amount of torque that can be transferred by preload only is very small compared to the torque transfer in a locker. For instance, I measured the preload in the 31 spline Trac-Loc differential in my Bronco at just over 100 lb-ft. The 28 spline Trac-Loc in my Mustang only has around 40 lb-ft when it's working properly, and is currently at around 20 lb-ft (worn out).

Now, on to our examples. We'll have to compare two different LSD's -- one with preload, and one without -- in order to illustrate how bias ratio and preload work together. We will assume a 5:1 bias ratio and 100 lb-ft of preload.
  • First, an LSD with no preload on ice. Again, 50 lb-ft of traction on the ice, and 1000 lb-ft on the dry pavement side. In this case, you can apply a total traction of 300 lb-ft to the axle. You get 50 lb-ft on the bad wheel, and the 5:1 bias ratio lets you put 250 lb-ft on the good wheel. After that point, the LSD can't transfer any more torque (without proper LSD driving techniques I'll explain later), and any further attempts at applying the go-pedal just spins the wheel on ice and cooks the diff. You do, however, get 300 lb-ft to move the vehicle, which is three times better than you get with an open diff. You can get more than that if you know how to drive it, but I'll get there later.
  • Same icy road, but with 100 lb-ft of preload. You can now transfer five times the torque on the bad wheel, plus the preload, to the good wheel. Hence, now you get 50 lb-ft on the bad wheel, and 250+100 lb-ft or 350 lb-ft on the good wheel. That's 400 lb-ft to move the vehicle, or four times better than the open diff.
  • No preload, one wheel in the air. If you don't know what you're doing, you get zero traction -- the non-preloaded limited slip can't transfer torque without some resistance on one side. Five times zero is still zero. See the section on how to drive a limited slip diff to get around this.
  • Preload, one wheel in the air. With no resistance on one wheel, the maximum torque you can transfer is equal to the preload, or 100 lb-ft. 100 lb-ft isn't impressive, but mathematically it's infinitely better than zero.

HOW TO DRIVE WITH AN LSD
You can work around the limit of the differential's bias ratio with a little skill. Let's simplify this example and say we're only working with a rear limited slip differential. No preload, 5:1 bias ratio ... and one wheel in the air. You're stuck. What do you do?

Well, you lightly apply the emergency brake. What? I'm stuck and you want me to put the brakes on? Are you nuts? Well, that's exactly what you do. You can accomplish the same thing with the foot brake while you're moving, but sometimes when you're stuck stuck, the e-brake works better because it doesn't increase drag at the front wheel.

Look at the basic physics of the situation. Assume you lightly apply the e-brake and get 200 lb-ft of resistance per side to turning the wheel, at both wheels (your brakes are capable of a LOT more than this). You now have a 200 ft-lb resistance on the wheel in the air. That means the diff can now transfer 5*200 or 1000 lb-ft to the axle for the wheel with good traction! Now, that wheel has 200 lb-ft of brakes on it too, so you lose a little, but you still have 800 lb-ft of traction on that one wheel to move the vehicle. Note that this requires an INPUT torque to the axle of 1200 lb-ft to overcome the drag from the brakes, but it gets you off the rock. You just don't want to do this all day, or you'll cook your brakes, and possibly other things.

This trick works for all limited differentials, including gear-type diffs like the True Trac, with the possible exception of viscous diffs. I'm not certain about the viscous diffs either, it may work there too. Besides, who the heck wants to use a viscous diff off-road?

If you learn to drive your LSD, rather than just hammering down the skinny pedal and praying you get there, you'll find they're not nearly as bad as some people claim. They're a LOT better than an open diff, and while they're not as good as a locker offroad, they're a very good compromise for those of us who have to drive our trucks on the street too. They're also a lot more friendly (and useful) on ice.

___________________
What remains is the mostly a copy from a post of mine on another board explaining the types of limited slip differential. If you want to include this information, feel free to copy, chop, or modify its format to suit this post -- so long, of course, as the information itself remains intact. I don't have much time to do any editing of this this afternoon (spent all my free time above), so I'm just gonna fire away.
___________________

There are many different varieties of differential that could be called "gear driven," and some of them are very different. The Torsen diff is a worm-type differential, which means it counts on the fact that worm gears typically transfer torque better in one direction than the other. Most differentials do not use worm gears, which sets this type off into a class of its own. Other gear-type examples include the True Trac and Quaiffe.

Most typical limited slip differentials are a variation of the Salisbury type, with or without ramps, and using either one or more cones or clutches for lockup. The basic principle of the Salisbury is that transmitting the torque from the pinion gears (on the cross shaft) to the side gears (splined to the axles) causes a spreading force on the side gears, and if you put some sort of clutch between the side gear and the housing, you can use this spreading force to restrain the movement of the side gear relative to the housing (hence, limiting slip). If you add ramps, you can magnify the spreading force, and set it up to vary so that you have a higher interlock (bias ratio) under acceleration than under deceleration. If you add a spring between the side gears to ensure there is always some clutch lock-up force, you get preload, too.

Functionally nearly identical variations of the Salisbury include the Ford/Dana Trac-Lok, the Eaton Posi used by GM, the Auburn, and a number of others. The Dana Powr-Lok used in the D60 and D70 is an example of a Salisbury with ramps.
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post #34 of 205 (permalink) Old 07-13-2005, 04:26 AM
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"Air Lockers:

The biggest player is ARB, and they are the Gold Standard of selectable lockers. ARB lockers require additional air system plumbing and compressors to operate, and they cannot be installed in a driveway by shade-tree mechanics. ARB installation is very complex, and unless you've done it before, it is a job best left to a shop."

I installed the ARB in the rear of my 89 and it really wasnt that bad. Light wiring and air pluming but the kit came with everything. The only part that made me nervous was drilling my case and routing the hard line inside other than that its like installing a stereo system and some air shocks.
Great write up by the way
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post #35 of 205 (permalink) Old 07-13-2005, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildbroncobill
"Air Lockers:

The biggest player is ARB, and they are the Gold Standard of selectable lockers. ARB lockers require additional air system plumbing and compressors to operate, and they cannot be installed in a driveway by shade-tree mechanics. ARB installation is very complex, and unless you've done it before, it is a job best left to a shop."

I installed the ARB in the rear of my 89 and it really wasnt that bad. Light wiring and air pluming but the kit came with everything. The only part that made me nervous was drilling my case and routing the hard line inside other than that its like installing a stereo system and some air shocks.
Great write up by the way
Gotta agree. It's no more difficult installing an ARB than it is any other diff except to deal with the seal housing, and that isn't a significant issue.
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post #36 of 205 (permalink) Old 07-13-2005, 09:30 PM
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What about for daily drivers? I know selectable is something I should really be looking at for front and rear but is it advisable for one's without?

I drive a lot and don't mind changing my driving style but is it a safety issue?


Thanks Mike

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post #37 of 205 (permalink) Old 07-13-2005, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildbroncobill
"Air Lockers:

The biggest player is ARB, and they are the Gold Standard of selectable lockers. ARB lockers require additional air system plumbing and compressors to operate, and they cannot be installed in a driveway by shade-tree mechanics. ARB installation is very complex, and unless you've done it before, it is a job best left to a shop."

I installed the ARB in the rear of my 89 and it really wasnt that bad. Light wiring and air pluming but the kit came with everything. The only part that made me nervous was drilling my case and routing the hard line inside other than that its like installing a stereo system and some air shocks.
Great write up by the way
I will not argue in this thread
The ARB is as easy to install as a normal carrier ...period...
If you can set-up gears and drill a straight hole, you can set-up an ARB.
Only drawback to an ARB is the tubing can and will get cut at some point in time.

Just my $.02
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post #38 of 205 (permalink) Old 09-12-2005, 01:17 PM
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ok everybody talks about limited slip and lock rights what about spools???? i have a 78 bronco with a 9" rear. i was told i have an open 9" when the 4.56 gears were installed. i don't want to weld the spiders but i would like to install a spool. the bronco does not drive on the road. this rig is for off-road use only. do you guys think it would be alright??? i have a lock right in the front rear(dana44) and had them in other trucks. i've had and no problems. i just don't have any experience with spools. any help would be great... thanks.... david
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post #39 of 205 (permalink) Old 09-12-2005, 01:53 PM Thread Starter
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People with spools in the rear will tell you that they are very predictable. You will always know how it's going to behave. If it's not going to see much street time, then you won't be unhappy with it. It will be a little harder on the axles, and it will be somewhat annoying if you drive it on pavement or other hard surface (like granite rock faces, etc.), but overall, for a trail-only rig, you should be ok.

I'm Bronco-less again, but it was For A Good Cause
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post #40 of 205 (permalink) Old 09-22-2005, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkwalt
What about for daily drivers? I know selectable is something I should really be looking at for front and rear but is it advisable for one's without?

I drive a lot and don't mind changing my driving style but is it a safety issue?


Thanks Mike
I also do alot of DD with my F150, and I would like to know which locker (Dana 60 front / planning Dana 70 rear) I would need to keep good on-road drivablity, as well as great mild off-roadability.
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