SAS decision making, wife isn't helping - Ford Bronco Forum
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 08:58 PM Thread Starter
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SAS decision making, wife isn't helping

Hey guys,

Just got back from yet another deployment. Since getting my 96 I've been agonizing over whether to do a SAS or a cut and turn. Well, since I'm sufficiently busy with life and making enough money to pay for labor, and since I've lifted vehicles by myself, I am going to have a shop do the work. I don't live in CA where cut and turns are popular, and I don't want to saddle my guy with doing work he isn't familiar with, and I live in WA, so a SAS makes more sense.

So I hit my local guy up to see what axles he found for me while I was gone. He has a fully built D60 for the front...like full on, holy shit hub to hub rebuild, $1800 housing, lockers, etc. And the same with a GM 14 bolt rear, disc conversion, etc. Diff covers and all the fixins.

He will give me the axles for 4k or so. I think this is a great deal, so I told him write up the quote so I can get him half up front.

They are his personal axles, so they weren't in the quote.

Quote came out to just over $12,000. It includes a 4" lift kit for 1600, 3600 in labor (this is 40 hours, he told me they can probably do it in 10-15, but put 40 on the quote as a worst case), new drivelines for 800, fab work in front for 450, wheels and tires for 3200 (realistically I'll spend 2k on this, not sure what size he's imagining I'm looking for lol) 600 for gears/install kits (says he should be able to just swap gears out of the axles since they are new) + various partsd for steering/axle etc. Total including tax is 12k, plus 4k to him for the axles. He gave me 10% off for military as well.

I talked to him, had a bit of sticker shock, and he assured me he built the quote for worst case scenario, and that he will try to save wherever he can. Right off the bat he told me it'll likely be a couple grand less just from labor and a few parts. Also, the truck has brand new 35 MTRs and wheels on it (he's just going to sell them in his store front, should get 1500 at least), I was planning on doing a D44 SAS so I'd keep the rear end the same. I can still go that route, but he just happened to have these insanely built axles at his shop. Essentially this will be a complete rebuild of the bottom of my truck, which I wasn't planning on at all, but its an opportunity I suppose. he's also got random axle and steering budgets in there, guessing for fab work or additional parts needed.

Any thoughts on if this is a terrible move or not?

If I do it, I'm thinking of having him limit his budget to this:
4k for axles
2k labor (like 22 hours or something)
500 wheels/tires (should be 2k, but subtract the 35" mtr kevlars and wheels)
1k for lift parts (as far as I can tell, on a SAS lift it should end up just being coils/shocks in front and leafs/shackles in rear right?)
2k for random other parts, drive shafts etc.

So my total including axles is about 10k.

Here's the actual quote:

Code:
Item/Labor	#	Price
4" Skyjacker Lift Kit
Discount: '10% Off' (-$180.00)	1	$1620.00
Labor
Discount: '10% Off' (-$400.00)	1	$3600.00
Front and Rear Drivelines
Discount: '10% Off' (-$90.00)	1	$810.00
Brackets for Front end
Discount: '10% Off' (-$50.00)	1	$450.00
Tires and wheels (price depending on style of wheel size and tires)
Discount: '10% Off' (-$350.00)	1	$3150.00
Tire Rack Powder Coat
Discount: '10% Off' (-$10.00)	1	$90.00
Nitro 4.88 gears with master installation kits
Discount: '10% Off' (-$70.00)	1	$629.99
Detroit GM 14 bolt
Discount: '10% Off' (-$50.00)	1	$449.99
Steering
Discount: '10% Off' (-$50.00)	1	$450.00
Labor	$4000.00
Parts	$8499.98
Discounts	$-1250.00
Tax	$967.50
Total	$12217.48
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 09:01 PM Thread Starter
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So for the TL;DR,

Is 10-15k way too much for a D60 and a GM 14 bolt with all the bells and whistles and all the labor and parts to throw them under my truck and lift it 4"?

And, should I just be doing a D44 in the front and leave the rear alone?
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 09:07 PM Thread Starter
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In my mind I was planning on spending about 15k to get the truck totally where I want, and that included this stuff:

SAS and lift
Possible 4BT or engine work on the 351
Some interior stuff, seats or upholstery
Paint job on the outside
Soft top
Fiberglass hood, maybe bedsides too
-----------------------------------------
Plan was to finish up the 96, then look for an EB or wait for the 2020 to come out.

Am I way out of line on my 15K target?
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 09:57 PM
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You are way out of line! That is 25-30k in work at least. There will be lots of shade tree mechanics that will say they could do it all for 5k, but they are lying and you are not getting quotes from them.

4BT? For real?


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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 10:06 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by deathmobile2 View Post
You are way out of line! That is 25-30k in work at least. There will be lots of shade tree mechanics that will say they could do it all for 5k, but they are lying and you are not getting quotes from them.

4BT? For real?


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Possibly a 6BT lol, with the 1 ton axles under it if I get them o.0

My biggest concern is I am 30 now, and on my second bronco. On the first truck I did all the work myself, cut all the corners, ghetto rigged where I could and needed to, etc. Now I've got a good job, no kids leeching my dollars away yet, working on double pensions (so no real need to build my own nest egg) and want to do everything the right way. As my Daily driver I can't really afford to take months doing this by myself in my garage.

So 10-15k isn't ridiculous for the SAS then? I just thought it was weird he quoted me 40 hours labor and told me after it would likely only be 10 or 15 maybe. I don't want to OK the quote and have him work on it ten hours and charge me 30 ya know.
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 10:47 PM
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I certainly would have a few questions. It does sound low but it depends on the details. It shouldn't be $25-$30K though unless you are doing custom link coilover suspension front and rear. Even then I wouldn't see it getting to the $25K mark. But that leads to my questions.
1. What are the details of the axles? I assume the 60 is a Ford (driver drop)? What version is it? Were the axles professionally built? What lockers do they have? Looks like the rear does not have a locker as there is a seperate line item for the 14 bolt Detroit. What gears? New axle shafts and/or u-joints? New Hubs (Warn Premiums)? None of these are overly important or expensive with the exception of the locker/gears.
3. What is the plan for relocating the VSS sensor from your 8.8 to the 14 bolt?
3. What lift kit is he planning on using? Looks like a Skyjacker? But for what? Is it an F350 lift that he is going to make work on your Bronco? If so it's going to be a leaf suspension and not a coil. That is certainly do able, but I do think you would be closer to 40hrs than 15 to get it all 100% done and done correctly. More details are needed on this. Also, 4" of lift when using a Dana 60 is tough to do. You won't have much up-travel.
4. What is the line item for "brackets for front end"?
The rest seems a bit on the low side but not unheard of. Over all I honestly don't think it's that bad. The suspension is a big question mark but otherwise it seems reasonable. The real question is does this shop have a good reputation and do they do this type of custom work a lot? If they are good and you trust them then I would say go ahead.

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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
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So questions:

1. I think the 60 is a Ford, I'm going in tomorrow to look at them. Its all brand new professionally built by very reputable shop in my area. Only shop honestly, but he's got 30k+ custom jobs in there constantly. Detroit lockers, new diff housings and covers, all that jazz. I think he has 3.56 gears in them now, but the axles haven't been used so he's just going to pull them and return for 4.88s. He mentioned the diff housing alone was 1,800 but I should be able to tell if they're custom jobs when I see them tomorrow.

2. No clue on the VSS, I'll check on that. Don't want the engine lights on from that stupid thing.

3. That's one of my main issues with the quote, there's nothing he needs out of a lift kit except coils maybe, then he's wasting the rest of it. Better to order springs of JBG imo. I'm bringing it up tomorrow. He wants to do coil overs in front honestly. so I should do a 6" with the D60?

4. Front end brackets = radius arms, aluminum and heims. The front office girl is a off road groupie lol.

Shop is the only one in my area, its called Black Diamond 4x4, and the guy does real nice work. He did a bumper for me, quoted me in the beginning and tried to charge double (which was more in line with what I thought it'd cost anyway) but I didn't back down and made him stick close to his original quote. So he may be doing this to f with me a little lol.

Should I just go all the way and do coilovers? Honestly, money isn't such an issue at the moment, I just want to make absolute sure I'm not getting ripped off.
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 07:22 AM
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he is crazy, the cost of the lift and labor to install as well as tires / wheels are way to high! unless west coast costs that much more?
unless wheels you are wanting are full race beadlocks that is crazy high. but hey its your money.

the other costs seem somewhat reasonable.

just my opinion
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 07:42 PM Thread Starter
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So. Finally got the wife to give me her opinion on the matter.

I'm now doing coilovers on all four sides and a four link setup, plus some other goodies. Axles are D60 front with all 35spline upgrades, new beefy housings, drilled rotors, big ass calipers that don't fit behind anything smaller than a 17" wheel. Rear is a 14 bolt similarly built. Gears are 4.88, going with 37" tires. Going with elockers, as well, grabbing a steering setup from broncoair and anything else that comes up.
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 08:06 PM
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hey there thought I would just chime in to help you.

1) Because you have a 1996 you are going to have to find a way to supplement the vss. Reason being is the tranny will not shift right with out one. This lead me to put a 10.25 sterling in the back of my 1994 which has the same plug and sensor.

2) You are going to have an abs light on because the front 60 wont have spots for the wheel sensors. I personally zipped tied mine in the engine bay and live with the light.

3) Do you plan on driving this on the street much? The Reason I ask is that you will more than likely need a 3.0 coilover with remote resi to keep down the heat. Also it will have some nice body roll effect kind of like a lifted jeep tj.

If I had this type of budget I would get a kingpin 60 and 10.25 sterling. Take them to an axle shop and have them built to your desire. Then get the bronco air sas kit and a simple shackle flip in the rear.

Not trying to change your mind just simply trying to help.
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 10:34 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 1 dirty bronco View Post
hey there thought I would just chime in to help you.

1) Because you have a 1996 you are going to have to find a way to supplement the vss. Reason being is the tranny will not shift right with out one. This lead me to put a 10.25 sterling in the back of my 1994 which has the same plug and sensor.

2) You are going to have an abs light on because the front 60 wont have spots for the wheel sensors. I personally zipped tied mine in the engine bay and live with the light.

3) Do you plan on driving this on the street much? The Reason I ask is that you will more than likely need a 3.0 coilover with remote resi to keep down the heat. Also it will have some nice body roll effect kind of like a lifted jeep tj.

If I had this type of budget I would get a kingpin 60 and 10.25 sterling. Take them to an axle shop and have them built to your desire. Then get the bronco air sas kit and a simple shackle flip in the rear.

Not trying to change your mind just simply trying to help.
-eric
So for the VSS we'll drill a hole in the top of the axle and put a spicer tone ring in the dif on the locker. Like here: vss?

The front 60 definitely has spots for ABS, its build specifically for it, and as far as I can tell most modern hubs are.

We picked out some 2.5s with remote res, and the 4-link geometry should eliminate excess body roll. All this stuff is definitely subject to change, but the guy knows his stuff. I came back into his shop today to finalize everything and he had picked out a bunch of specific bronco parts and had been doing research all night. I know he's planning on messing with the computer as well, so he may do some re-programming in spots.

He's going to try to keep it under 15, but I'm prepared to hit 20
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 11:40 PM
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Sounds like all your ducks are in a row. I'm definetly going to watch this build.
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 06:54 AM
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That is a huge budget and with someone else doing the work, it looks like your going to loss about a third of it to labor. With that budget, I would suggest you go with a bolt on kit you can do yourself. Bronco Air's kit would be that bolt on kit. You would use some one tons from that era and could have it done in a weeks worth of leave. Having the sterling in the rear would take care of the vvs issue without using a relocation kit. The only thing you would have to think/worry about is the abs, modify the axle with abs or get rid of the pump/wires and jump the computer to think its still there. There are tons of threads on how to do that.
What size rims and tires do you plan on running?

The other thing I don't like in your quote is that labor is taxed. In other states, labor is separate from retail and is not taxed. That ends up eating more of the budget there.
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 10:40 AM
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Im really excited about this front 4 link and what he's going to do with the engine crossmember. You don't see many, if not any, front four links around hear because of the upper triangle and crossmember. It should definetly be bad to the bone and hopefully one of the nicest broncos around.
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 02:16 PM Thread Starter
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That is a huge budget and with someone else doing the work, it looks like your going to loss about a third of it to labor. With that budget, I would suggest you go with a bolt on kit you can do yourself. Bronco Air's kit would be that bolt on kit. You would use some one tons from that era and could have it done in a weeks worth of leave. Having the sterling in the rear would take care of the vvs issue without using a relocation kit. The only thing you would have to think/worry about is the abs, modify the axle with abs or get rid of the pump/wires and jump the computer to think its still there. There are tons of threads on how to do that.
What size rims and tires do you plan on running?

The other thing I don't like in your quote is that labor is taxed. In other states, labor is separate from retail and is not taxed. That ends up eating more of the budget there.
Yeah, I should do it myself, but honestly, I've made enough money the past couple years and don't have anything I want to spend it on. Doesn't do any good sitting around, and I'm deploying again next week. While I could spend a week yelling at my truck and buying new tools I'd only use once, I'd rather spend it with my wife and family and friends. And lets be honest, I'd still have the truck half apart if I was doing this myself o.0

With the deal I'm getting on the Axles, I'm actually breaking even / making a bit up even with the labor. The axles are basically rock jocks, worth well over 10k together. They aren't just 40-50 year old rebuilds with fresh paint, they are beefy as hell 35 spline chromoly 4 wheel abs/disc etc. I'd be looking at over 7K for what I need from Broncoair, plus what, 6-7k minimum to fully build those axles. I'm basically at 15k and 1000 busted knuckles.

I've thought it out, and it'll likely take the shop 2k or so (20 hours) to do the work. I'm more than willing to part with a couple grand to save me the pain in the butt of doing all this work.

plus, custom > bolt-on
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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 05:36 PM
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Yeah, I should do it myself, but honestly, I've made enough money the past couple years and don't have anything I want to spend it on. Doesn't do any good sitting around, and I'm deploying again next week. While I could spend a week yelling at my truck and buying new tools I'd only use once, I'd rather spend it with my wife and family and friends. And lets be honest, I'd still have the truck half apart if I was doing this myself o.0

With the deal I'm getting on the Axles, I'm actually breaking even / making a bit up even with the labor. The axles are basically rock jocks, worth well over 10k together. They aren't just 40-50 year old rebuilds with fresh paint, they are beefy as hell 35 spline chromoly 4 wheel abs/disc etc. I'd be looking at over 7K for what I need from Broncoair, plus what, 6-7k minimum to fully build those axles. I'm basically at 15k and 1000 busted knuckles.

I've thought it out, and it'll likely take the shop 2k or so (20 hours) to do the work. I'm more than willing to part with a couple grand to save me the pain in the butt of doing all this work.

plus, custom > bolt-on
How much are you going to be wheeling and difficulty of trails?

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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 06:50 PM Thread Starter
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Trail difficulty will stay on the easier end if things. Not going to be hitting black diamonds or anything yet, but we have juniper dunes here just near my house.

Truck is going to be my daily driver until the new bronco comes out, and if it sucks it'll remain my daily driver.

The shop that's doing the work is a jeep shop, this will be the first bronco they've done and they asked me today if they could use it for their portfolio $$
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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2017, 05:24 PM
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Sounds like you have a good shop working with you. That's the key. What kind of 4 link are you doing and is it front and rear? Depending on that it does still sound cheap. Doing a custom parallel 4 link is not overly complicated, but still not cheap. Doing a triangulated or double triangulated 4 link is very complicated and very expensive. I would ask what kind of links he's planning on using for that price. If you are doing front and rear 4 link your looking at a minimum of 8 joints. For a good joint your looking at about $90 each. So right there your around $700.
I'm guessing you've made your decision to go this route. It's going to be fun to watch. Be sure to post up a few pics of the work here and there. Really interested to see the front come together as that cross-member is a bitch. Price still seems low to me but it depends on the details.

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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 01:08 PM
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in my opinion, quote seems high. plus Id go with a sterling like said before. the rear driveshaft shouldn't need to be changed, and Ive done as much as a 10' lift without modifying a front driveshaft. just seems to me that if your not wheeling the crap out of it, you'd be better off to go with a dana 44 swap up front, and do the swap yourself in a weekend for way less money. for the budget your going with, you could add chromoly shafts and bad ass joints to make a dana 44 strong as hell. $90 an hour really isn't too bad on labor, and I think 40 hours is actually fair.
For 4K, you could find one tons with 4.88 gears already installed. 4k for 3.55 stock axles seems way high, unless stuff actually cost that much more on the west coast. I could find and do a superduty axle swap for way less than 12k.
I didn't see coil overs and 4 link in the quote. there is no way he's planning on a coil over setup for 1600 bucks. there would be more than that in parts. honestly, you could do a leaf spring swap using sky parts for way less than that guy is quoting you.
Sorry, just seems like way to high of a quote. In my opinion.

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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-08-2017, 03:07 AM Thread Starter
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So I am deployed again, I've texted the shop to send me progress pictures, hopefully he gets back to me today. 10 hour time change.

I paid them 10k up front, told him I can do 20 total, but would like to keep it under 15 if possible.

He can do the ring in the 14 bolt, and has programming capability so he can adjust the computer and transmission if need be. E lockers front and rear, hes mounting up a bunch of crap I had in my garage, OBA being most notable. I'll likely ship him a new hood, mines been used as a tool table too much. He's doing custom slider/steps, making some adjustments to the bumper, the radius arms will be aluminum, getting method beadlock wheels, 37" tires, the 4 link will be custom as well, don't know if hes doing parallel or triangulated, I'll find out from the pictures. He's incredibly talented with Jeeps, and has a lot of happy customers, so I'm not worried. He's using nice Heims on all joints.

I wanted a D44 first, but I see too many people going from a 44 sas to a 60 anyway, may as well save the money and go all out up front.

I'm excited to see what he comes up with, and like I mentioned, he ask me to use it in his portfolio as his first bronco job, so I'm very confident he'll put extra care and time into everything and likely won't be charging me as much as I'm expecting. If he does that's fine. It's still cheaper than buying a new truck, and it'll end up far better.

I wish I was doing it myself, but honestly, I'm set to deploy again next year to Kosovo, I'm trying to put a baby in my wife, and we are shopping for homes. I don't see myself having the time to take on a project of this magnitude myself for a few years, and I'm murican, so instant gratification for the win :)
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