351W Timing Chain/Gear Drive - Ford Bronco Forum
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2010, 01:41 PM Thread Starter
LS SWAP EVERYTHING!
 
Red91XLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Biloxi, Mississippi
Posts: 26,251
Bronco Info: half a bronco
351W Timing Chain/Gear Drive

Okay, I have a 1994+ 351W in my 1991 with a bad timing chain. I am considering replacing it with a Gear Drive instead of a double roller. I have heard the arguments over the noise that it makes (Remember the last thread on this, Gacknar's "WRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR" ... lol) and I'm willing to live with it.

The only thing that's making me hesitant to just go ahead & buy one is this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SummitRacing
Our SummitŪ gear drives are great for you folks who want better timing and a choice of "noisy" or "quiet" operation. Their dual-idler design has CNC-machined components and they are easy to install. Each set comes with a pressed-in Torrington bearing or an SAE 660 bronze thrust washer (varies by application), as well as a cam gear that allows for timing adjustments in two-degree increments. These drives fit under your stock timing cover and come complete with instructions. Minor machining is required on models with the bronze thrust washer.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G6711-Q/


Does anyone know if my engine is (or probably does) have a bronze timing gear? Is there any way to tell without pulling the timing cover off? I'd rather not have to tear into it until I have replacement parts, but I may have to.

Also, what kind of Machining is necessary if I do have a bronze thrust washer? What kind of money am I looking at spending, and would I have to pull the engine to have it machined (I'm almost positive I would)?


'91 XLT-totaled
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gacknar View Post
This is not a Democracy, it is a Broncocracy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwagon View Post
You do realize that you just reported the new owner of FSB?
-James
Red91XLT is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2010, 01:59 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Splendora Texas
Posts: 472
Bronco Info: 1989 4X4 351W C-6 3.54/3.55
If your engine is wore to the point that it needs a new timing chain set, you got's bigger fish to fry that what type of cam drive to use. Save your money for upcoming repairs, install a Clowes True Roller chain set and be done with it.

Just my 02 .

DGW

1989 Bronco 4X4 351W EFI C-6 3.54/3.55 Gears.
DGW1949 is offline  
post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2010, 02:08 PM Thread Starter
LS SWAP EVERYTHING!
 
Red91XLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Biloxi, Mississippi
Posts: 26,251
Bronco Info: half a bronco
If I go with a double roller chain, it will be a Cloyes true roller. The 1994+ 351W are Hydraulic Roller Cam engines and require a steel dizzy drive gear as the the camshaft is made of a harder tool steel. My truck has destroyed two cast iron dizzy gears and it's been due to timing chain slack. Engine still runs damn strong for having a bad timing chain, but it needs to be replaced.


'91 XLT-totaled
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gacknar View Post
This is not a Democracy, it is a Broncocracy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwagon View Post
You do realize that you just reported the new owner of FSB?
-James
Red91XLT is offline  
post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2010, 02:15 PM
"Addicted"
 
sackman9975's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The "D"
Posts: 8,321
Bronco Info: 1995 Eddie Bauer 357w, E303 cam on S/D, 3 inch exhaust with flowmaster 40, Flex-A-Lite
Garage
James, save your money and just get another chain and gear set.
sackman9975 is offline  
post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2010, 02:20 PM Thread Starter
LS SWAP EVERYTHING!
 
Red91XLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Biloxi, Mississippi
Posts: 26,251
Bronco Info: half a bronco
Think so, Scott? I guess you know best


'91 XLT-totaled
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gacknar View Post
This is not a Democracy, it is a Broncocracy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwagon View Post
You do realize that you just reported the new owner of FSB?
-James
Red91XLT is offline  
post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2010, 02:29 PM
"Addicted"
 
sackman9975's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The "D"
Posts: 8,321
Bronco Info: 1995 Eddie Bauer 357w, E303 cam on S/D, 3 inch exhaust with flowmaster 40, Flex-A-Lite
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red91XLT View Post
Think so, Scott? I guess you know best
Yes. A new chain will go another 150k plus. You honestly think the motor will hold up that long? It just might, but save that money to make it better. A gear drive isn't gonna give you any more power than the chain. It'll be more accurate later in life, but really, save the cash. The chain went tired, the motor will too someday.
sackman9975 is offline  
post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2010, 02:36 PM Thread Starter
LS SWAP EVERYTHING!
 
Red91XLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Biloxi, Mississippi
Posts: 26,251
Bronco Info: half a bronco
I know I need a rebuild, but you know me... money's always an issue LOL... Hopefully, I'll find higher paying work in the spring and make enough to start the rebuild and lift process.

Any particular chain & gear set you recommend?

I was looking at this one: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-3535X9/


'91 XLT-totaled
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gacknar View Post
This is not a Democracy, it is a Broncocracy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwagon View Post
You do realize that you just reported the new owner of FSB?
-James
Red91XLT is offline  
post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2010, 02:54 PM
"Addicted"
 
sackman9975's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The "D"
Posts: 8,321
Bronco Info: 1995 Eddie Bauer 357w, E303 cam on S/D, 3 inch exhaust with flowmaster 40, Flex-A-Lite
Garage
Clowes true rollers are nice, but honestly I'd go to O'rielys or Napa and just pick up a double roller chain. I wouldn't even worried about it being a "true" roller. Last one I bought was like $40 (O'rielys). That will suite you just fine.

Now, make sure when your scraping your gaskets off the block to stuff some rags into the oil pan opening to catch debris from causing a major meltdown after its all back together. Use a shop vac to suck all the debris off the rags before removing the rags.
sackman9975 is offline  
post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2010, 03:00 PM Thread Starter
LS SWAP EVERYTHING!
 
Red91XLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Biloxi, Mississippi
Posts: 26,251
Bronco Info: half a bronco
I'd like to go with a Billet Steel cam gear if it all possible, but I have nothing against Napa parts. Stranger things have happened to me and I may not be able to afford a rebuild when I like, so I'd really want to insure maximum life of the timing chain and gears. Wonder if napa carries one with a billet steel cam gear?


'91 XLT-totaled
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gacknar View Post
This is not a Democracy, it is a Broncocracy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwagon View Post
You do realize that you just reported the new owner of FSB?
-James
Red91XLT is offline  
post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2010, 08:32 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 935
Bronco Info: 1995 5.8 E4OD. Rancho 4in.Ext. Radius Arms. 35x12.5 BFG Muds. Resi Shocks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red91XLT View Post
I'd like to go with a Billet Steel cam gear if it all possible
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-C3057K/
Cloyes Brand - Check
Double Roller - Check
Billet Steel - Check
Affordable? - Damn Straight

Same on I'm putting in my rebuild and was recommended to me by two seprate engine builders with a combined 60 years experience.
BB33's is offline  
post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2010, 10:43 PM Thread Starter
LS SWAP EVERYTHING!
 
Red91XLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Biloxi, Mississippi
Posts: 26,251
Bronco Info: half a bronco
I saw that one, it was first choice, but cam sprocket's cast iron.


'91 XLT-totaled
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gacknar View Post
This is not a Democracy, it is a Broncocracy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwagon View Post
You do realize that you just reported the new owner of FSB?
-James
Red91XLT is offline  
post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2010, 10:52 PM
Satyr of the Midwest
 
SigEpBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ida & Grand Rapids, Michigan, a.k.a The Unemployment Capital of America
Posts: 17,754
Bronco Info: 1993 EB, 5.8L, BIO0 MAF, GT40Ps, Mustang cam, GT40 Intake, Custom Headers, Moates QuarterHorse
I like the Sealed Power stuff myself. OE quality, easy to find.

SigEpBlue
Wheelin' across Michigan from Ida to Grand Rapids, baby!
Quote:
Nemo nisi per amicitiam cognoscitur -- No one learns except by friendship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adlai Stevenson
Isn't it conceivable to you that an intelligent person could harbor two opposing ideas in his mind?
SigEpBlue is offline  
post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-13-2010, 07:35 PM
Fullsize Member
 
95F1504x4EB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 471
Bronco Info: 1995, F150, MAF 5.0L, 4R70W, BW 1356, 3.31 gears, 31x10.50s, 130A 3G, Saginaw, Eddie Bauer Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red91XLT View Post
I saw that one, it was first choice, but cam sprocket's cast iron.
I was just on Cloyes website and they say "Sprockets Are Made From High Alloy Steel". Do we "have" to have a steel cam sprocket on the roller engines?

I am gonna be replacing my timing chain when I go in to replace the leaking timing cover gasket on my 95. I was also thinking about getting the OE replacement Cloyes C3057K double roller set.

I've been reading some old threads and some have said that the "true" roller chains stretch too fast. Does this apply to the OE replacement chain above?

Would there be any advantage in going with the Cloyes C3206 silent type chain, or is it garbage?

My engine is stock and will be for a while. Thanks.
95F1504x4EB is offline  
post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-13-2010, 09:01 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,649
Bronco Info: 87FSB, 302 020 over ,3g alt, GT40 heads, Exp intake , Bassani Exhaust and 24" Magnaflow muffler
I perfer the edelbrock street legal setup. Cost form summit is around $45-50 dollars.
broncoflorida is offline  
post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-13-2010, 09:38 PM
Satyr of the Midwest
 
SigEpBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ida & Grand Rapids, Michigan, a.k.a The Unemployment Capital of America
Posts: 17,754
Bronco Info: 1993 EB, 5.8L, BIO0 MAF, GT40Ps, Mustang cam, GT40 Intake, Custom Headers, Moates QuarterHorse
Quote:
Originally Posted by 95F1504x4EB View Post
Would there be any advantage in going with the Cloyes C3206 silent type chain, or is it garbage?
This is the old-style Morse chain link. They're preferred on a daily driver, for durability and noise reasons, IME.

SigEpBlue
Wheelin' across Michigan from Ida to Grand Rapids, baby!
Quote:
Nemo nisi per amicitiam cognoscitur -- No one learns except by friendship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adlai Stevenson
Isn't it conceivable to you that an intelligent person could harbor two opposing ideas in his mind?
SigEpBlue is offline  
post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-15-2010, 03:25 AM
Ex Navy Nuke
 
RLKBOB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Petersburg, MI
Posts: 5,784
Bronco Info: 1990 EB, 357, E4OD
Don't put gears on, stick with a chain. I put on a true roller setup when I built my 351 and had to modify my cam thrust plate. Easy and didn't cost a thing. Here's some pics to show you exactly what needs to be done just FYI.

here's what it looks like stock


This view shows the cam gear won't go on all the way b/c the torrington bearing is hitting the thrust plate bolt heads.


Here's the thrust plate after machining, just need to countersink the holes.


installed and everything went together fine.

Bob Kulhanek, My Superford

Hit it harder or get a bigger hammer!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DcSkater602
slap me silly im a mother F^%#$%*($ retard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonzai View Post
Oh yea! Im definitely interested in a rear.
RLKBOB is offline  
post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-15-2010, 05:21 AM
Satyr of the Midwest
 
SigEpBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ida & Grand Rapids, Michigan, a.k.a The Unemployment Capital of America
Posts: 17,754
Bronco Info: 1993 EB, 5.8L, BIO0 MAF, GT40Ps, Mustang cam, GT40 Intake, Custom Headers, Moates QuarterHorse
Groovy mod, Bob. So simple, it makes me wonder why Ford didn't do that in the first place.

SigEpBlue
Wheelin' across Michigan from Ida to Grand Rapids, baby!
Quote:
Nemo nisi per amicitiam cognoscitur -- No one learns except by friendship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adlai Stevenson
Isn't it conceivable to you that an intelligent person could harbor two opposing ideas in his mind?
SigEpBlue is offline  
post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-15-2010, 10:46 AM
MARBLE GARGLER!
 
351w500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Fairfield ca.
Posts: 11,021
Bronco Info: '90 xlt 351w E40D Truetrac I GOT ROLLER ROCKERS !
Why is billet better than iron when it comes to the gears anyways, isn't it the actual timing chain that goes ta hell ?
351w500 is offline  
post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-15-2010, 12:41 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Splendora Texas
Posts: 472
Bronco Info: 1989 4X4 351W C-6 3.54/3.55
Quote:
Originally Posted by 351w500 View Post
Why is billet better than iron when it comes to the gears anyways, isn't it the actual timing chain that goes ta hell ?
The thing here is that wear metals have to be compatable or you'll experience premature failure of one (or more) componants. Hence your need to keep replacing distributor gears.
You may also note that even when these metals ARE compatable, the action of one part riding, rubbing, sliding against and/or rolling across the other establishes a wear pattern on both. That wear pattern WILL effect the service life of one componant IF we replace it and not the others. In other words, it is prudent to replace your timing gears & chain as a set. And FWIW...no, it aint just the chain that wears. Gears wear too. In fact, if you install a new chain onto the old gears, the new chain will not have proper tooth contact which in turn will cause the little rollers to wear out faster than before.
Far as modern timing chains needing a steel gear goes...yes they do. Otherwise, as you have seen with your steel cam & iron distributor drive, the steel will eat-up the iron.

If I seem to be repeating myself here, it's 'cause I am. Reason is, this is important stuff to know when we set about selecting engine parts, replacing wheel bearings, power train parts, gears and stuff.

Hope this helps.

DGW

1989 Bronco 4X4 351W EFI C-6 3.54/3.55 Gears.
DGW1949 is offline  
post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-15-2010, 01:08 PM
The Anti Yam!
 
Gacknar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Georgia, Douglasville
Posts: 22,587
Bronco Info: 86 Bronco XLT 357w/AOD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red91XLT View Post
The 1994+ 351W are Hydraulic Roller Cam engines and require a steel dizzy drive gear as the the camshaft is made of a harder tool steel. My truck has destroyed two cast iron dizzy gears and it's been due to timing chain slack.
Am I missing something here


Ohhhh....

And by the way.....





WHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!


What??? I can't hear you over the sound of how cool my gear drive is!!


WHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!







I just ran a standard double roller from Crane on mine.

86 Bronco - 357W/AOD - 6" suspension lift, 3" body lift - 38" TSL Radials - 456:1 Gears
Sequential Multiport Mass-Air Fuel Injection from a 93 Mustang GT

My SuperMotors Site - My Engine

The Greatest Thread on FSB
Gacknar is offline  
Reply

  Ford Bronco Forum > Bronco Discussions > 1980-'96 Bronco Tech

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Bronco Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself. DO NOT USE Gmail.com accounts. If you only have a Gmail.com email please contact the administrator here

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome