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Mild 351 Build Opinions

33K views 166 replies 44 participants last post by  green monster 
#1 ·
I have searched and searched threads/posts but some final opinions on my possible build. Long story short my SAS once again has to be put on hold. I am in the middle of my paint/body work and have the front clip off. So I might as well and pull the engine to fix the oil pan and rear main leak. But why do that when I can freshen up my engine. Runs good with 188,000, just leaks fluid and would like a little more oomph. I need to keep cost down to because I am also doing the paint etc, so I figured on this: BBK under drive pulleys; GT40P heads; Edlebrock truck Performer lower/upper intake; stock cam; new oil pan/pump etc, water pump, 2 row radiator; freeze plugs and obviously gaskets.

I already have FMS headers, aftermarket Y pipe with single high flow cat and Magnaflow muffler. I figure as long as the compression and cylinder walls looks good I can squeeze another 20K miles or more until I have to bore her.

Maybe I can also get close to 300hp and some wanted Tq. I don't think I would be to far off but just probing your minds!

Thanks in advance! :beer
 
#2 ·
im not a big fan of underdrive pulleys. but the upgrades you mention sound good. i personally want to get the edelbrock heads and truck intake manifold. brand new and complete bolt in. maybe do a rebuild kit since you are already going to take the top end off. why do the work twice. its more money, but you wont have to take it out again
 
#3 ·
im also doing some research on adding some extra ponys to my rig...and we have a similar combo..i want to add those things with the exception of the intake..i will be using a lightning intake since i already have it..unless i find out that im better off with the stock one..
 
#11 ·
Something to consider...altough not "Cheap".....buy a tweecer or quaterhorse tuner and learn how to tune your fuel injection. Especially with the mods you are doing, you can get some more power and gas mileage out of a good tune. Or pay a reputable shop to tune it.

If you are going to go bigger, consider buying the parts to do a MAF swap...
 
#14 ·
Thanks for the all the valuable information and options. NO UNDERDRIVE PULLEYS!!!!! Got it! I was on the fence about it bit figured it might free up some horses/torque but see why not to do it.

I was looking at Professional products Typhoon intakes too, but there not much cheaper than Eldebrock setup. I might have to look more into the Typhoon lower and check prices.

I wanted to do a 393 MAF, but the time is here now and MAF will wait. I am crunching numbers for what I can afford and go from there. A 357 is what I am shooting for, but money will dictate. Also finding a affordable machine shop that knows what there doing is also being a challenge.

Thanks again for steering me in the right direction.
 
#17 ·
I am going to stay SD now and save the tuning and MAF for later. I just need to get my truck back together in a reasonable amount of time.

I think i am down to the GT 40 or 40P's now. Just have to look more at the smog crag and air pump setup. Then look at pistons and find a machine shop up here in BFE MT.

How much does everyone think a 357 short block would cost on avg? $1000?
Havent dealt with engines much and will continue to search in the forums and around town, but looking for ballparks so I can get this moving!!
 
#18 ·
Ok last question for awhile. Hopefully! So after reading, GT40Ps are a little better but more then likely won't be able to run the smog airpump. I can't just delete that correct? I have to re route it? I read it somewhere and have to find it.

Other the that and drilling out the bolt holes it's a plug and play, correct?
I will keep on searching the forums, just checking to see if I am correct so far.

After picking the headS I will go on to the pistons and then everything is easy.
 
#19 ·
the 96 explorer 5.0 gt40 heads have standard sbf exhaust ports. i say throw a mild cam in there while you have it apart mine is pretty much the same except its carbed edelbrock carb and intake though and when i had mine on 33s with 3.50 gears i couldnt launch hard in 2nd (zf5 trans) because it would spin the 11in heavy duty clutch so it has plenty of power
just my $0.02 worth
 
#20 ·
I almost have the game plan buttoned up. I have been talking to my machinest who is doing my balancing, porting etc. and he has convinced me not to by GT40P heads. Even though I am on fairly tight budget, it makes sense. Spend a little more now and be happy in the long run. So I am down to these heads in order. I want to keep it close as possible to a 9.5 compression ratio. I will be running on SD, stock cam, Edelbrock truck performer intake, FMS headers, Bassani Y pipe, with cars and Magnaflow muffler.

Trick Flow 170cc twisted wedge
GT40X- (Gacknar had good luck with these)
Edelbrock RPM heads
 
#21 ·
I run the X heads. I like them. They are NOT as good as AFR or TW heads. But just about any quaility aftermarket aluminum head will do you. They are good heads. I bought mine used (but new---rebuilt) and I would personally look for a good deal on what you could find used in the aftermarket aluminum department. The corral.net is a good source and doesn't have the same minimum post "criteria" FSB has to view and post in the classifieds. It is where I found both sets I have.

I was gonna post if going 302 to pick either head GT40 or P, but if going 351 to avoid the p heads due to "supposed" header issues. (SUpposed because I don't know first hand)

hth
tim
 
#22 ·
TS 90F150,
I have the same thinking as you. I also feel they are all pretty decent heads; one might give you more horsepower/torque, but not an overwhelming difference. I have been looking at classifieds around and on Ebay and think what ever one is cheaper in price is going to win. If I have to buy new, then I think I will get TF/TW. It seems they are all right around the $1000 mark.

I still fight the urge of being cheap and getting some GT40P's though. $300 rebuilt vs $1000, but making the front end a little lighter, a lot more torque and doing it right the first time seems worth it for $700.

Thanks for your input.
 
#23 ·
The reason I went with the X heads is because "Ford made them". I know Ford didn't really make them, but you understand what I mean. If it wasn't for that I think AFR or TW are definitely worth the money. And for the price difference I bought once and cried once. But now I don't say "wish I had better heads" lol.

Plus with the aluminum heads the engine weighs roughly the same as the factory 302. Aluminum heads also allow you to run more compression and still use lower octane fuel. And like your engine builder said, by the time you make a used set of irons like new you have just purchased a new set of aluminums.

Good luck and let us know how this turns out for you.

tim
 
#24 ·
Definitely stay away from Underdrive pulleys.

Focus on the heads and intake, I also run the GT40X heads and they have been reworked extensively and flow like any of the top tier aftermerket heads (especially at low valve lift) and this is good for off idle torque. Your intake is one of the OEMs choke points...go edelbrock.

I would steer you towards a roller cam that matches the flow behaviour of the heads and intake and one that is SD friendly. Go for increased torque since our beasts are heavy and need all the giddy up they can get. do a search on roller cams.

SOund like you have the exh side covered, no look at the intake...a drop in with a 460 snorkle is the best bet for added breathing.

Next is the six litre timing bump tune.

I would also consider relocating the ign module.

cheers,
Rob
 
#25 ·
I was planning on the leaving the cam original and I have done six litre tune up with timing bump, K&N drop in with 460 air intake, Crane fireball ignition and I think thats it!

Heads are the only thing I am trying to find that will not ruin my budget. I wasn't planning on the rebuild, then decided might as well when the engine is out and I am replacing the seals. Trick Flow/TW 170's would be my fav pick, but Summit has a different part number that says it replaced the originals. (don't have the part number with me) Edlebrock Performer RPM would be good too, GT40X I can get for $800-1000. The Edle and TF will be $1000-1400, pushing out of my budget.

I have to keep searching classifieds of different forums, sales and Ebay. Hopefully I will find something or I will just suck it up and buy them new/full price.
 
#26 ·
If it was me and I just wanted to "freshen it up while it is out" I would build the bottom end of the motor, then put the top end back on with the stock heads and a better intake. Pick up some better heads when the wallet recovers a little if you really want the nicer ones.

I have a 351 stroked to 418 that put 344tq and 257hp to the wheels through a stock intake, stock (worked over) heads and stock Intake manifolds. :toothless
 
#27 ·
surprised no one said this, and I don't mean to be negative nancy here, but you are looking to just freshen it up a bit, and by the few things you mentioned, that's exactly what you'll end up doing. So to think that those few things will amount to a 300HP 5.8 I think is a big stretch. If stock we are say 215hp, I'd be surprised if you dyno'd 250HP. You can prove me wrong though.
 
#28 ·
Sometimes a freshening up is all you really need. I noticed extra power/throttle response when I drove mine stock on a cool 45 degree morning vs 85 degree afternoon. So an extra 35 hp wouldn't be half bad. That was about the difference between the stock motor and the lightning motor anyway. But if PO is going to get aftermarket heads, he might as well get a SD friendly cam to take advantage of them. Cams and new valve springs arn't terribly expensive anyway.
 
#31 ·
Won't you make the most power with a cam?
No, the bottle neck on a 351w is the horribly restrictive intake, followed closely by the E7TE heads.

Heads are where the power is, that's why there so expensive.

Heads and intake are useless for the average 4x4.... How often do you turn 6500rpm's?
:histerica





Look at those numbers, and where they fall on the RPM band.

A properly built performance engine will put the power curve exactly where the builder wants it. I moved peak torque up a little higher than most guys with the cam I chose, but that's because it's a street truck. A slightly different cam profile and I could have moved peak torque even lower.

Saying heads and intake are useless on a 4x4 is like saying lockers are useless on a rock crawler. It's just not true. With the right head/intake/cam combination you can make a lot of power down low.

Heads are where the power is.
 
#37 ·
This why I love this site; information sharing at its best! ShadoFox, I should have rephrased my HP/TQ. I am aiming for 300/400 at flywheel and looking at Gacknar's build for inspiration. I don't know if his cam is for MAF or not and understand the best combo is heads that work with the cam. I was originally going for a refresh, but I really want to do this only once and I figured I would take care of the most important things like air intake and heads. I know the cam is not the greatest, but if i can leave it, save a few hundred $$ and put that towards the heads then I would be better off. If i have the money when I put the engine together I will defin. put one in.

I was originally only planning to do the seals since the core support is off and every seal is leaking, but i can't bring myself to just do a basic rebuild. I like to pain myself and eat rice and water in order to have a better engine! I have about $2500 and pushing $3000 for the engine.
Very roughly, I am looking at $1000 for the rebuild kit with pistons, balancing, resized rod bolts, crank grind, bore, oil pump and timing chain. $200 for radiator and water pump. $600 for E upper and lower intake. The rest I have is for heads.

So I don't need/can't afford AFR's and I think I would rather have Trick Flow TFS-51400002 rather than GT40X. Plus I can get them new for at least $1200 if not cheaper. Elde's would be ok, but TF's are better and cheaper IMO.

The other option is just go cheap, get rid of the smog air pump and get some GT40Ps. I think I would still get 20ish HP and 20ish TQ vs 40 HP/TQ with other heads. This is my lack of knowledge guess.

I guess i narrowed it down to TF's or iron GT40P's and maybe a cam. I can get rebuilt GT40P heads on Ebay and elsewhere for about $300 and I saw this tonight on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/86-87-93-95...Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr#ht_2094wt_956

Still a $615 difference in price. Thoughts???
 
#43 · (Edited)
looking at Gacknar's build for inspiration. I don't know if his cam is for MAF or not
My cam has an LSA of 112*, that is less than the 114* lower limit that speed density can deal with. But finding a similar cam with a 114* LSA should not be hard. But I highly recommend getting a copy of DeskTop dyno and running simulations with varying combinations in you price range. It's a system, and a cam similar to mine may not be what works best with your combo.



Here is everything you should ever need to know about my engine. Part numbers with prices at the time of the build and links to every thread about it during the build.
http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58954


I guess i narrowed it down to TF's or iron GT40P's and maybe a cam. I can get rebuilt GT40P heads on Ebay and elsewhere for about $300 and I saw this tonight on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/86-87-93-95-Ford-Mustang-GT-40-P-Cylinder-Heads-Cobra-302-MACHINED-w-NEW-SEALS-/170817902820?hash=item27c58a58e4&item=170817902820&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr#ht_2094wt_956

Still a $615 difference in price. Thoughts???
The casting on those heads say E7TE :duh

Do you have a machine shop you do business with?
 
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