Cam shaft causing no-start?? - Page 2 - Ford Bronco Forum
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post #21 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-26-2017, 02:54 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by trustyrusty View Post
if you were close by I would stop on by and give you a hand, even if it is too much cam,it should still start and run, maybe not great but at least run
Thanks man. Yeah my biggest issue is not having the right guy to work on it. Long story but I moved across the country and the truck got left with whomever would take it. I didn't get a chance to find the right guy. I'm not really in a position to work on it myself unfortunately.

I will say, I had tested fuel pressure to the rail with a gauge, I did have spark but I can't say it matched compression or not, there was plenty of compression at the first plug. I would think any mechanic would start with the basics but I'm not even sure that happened.

The fuel is definitely terribly old and that is very likely a problem.

I think I just have to get the truck back in my hands, seems like the only way anything will get figured out

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post #22 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-26-2017, 02:55 PM Thread Starter
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Have you attempted to have the engine builder take a look at it or make some suggestions?
I should check back with him. The guy is a bit of a nightmare but he may have some ideas

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post #23 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-26-2017, 10:23 PM
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There are 3 firing orders for Windsor engines, the PCM needs to be the same firing order for proper timing of the injectors. If a different cam were installed the PCM would have to be reprogrammed to know that.
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post #24 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-26-2017, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 445 FE Bronco View Post
There are 3 firing orders for Windsor engines, the PCM needs to be the same firing order for proper timing of the injectors. If a different cam were installed the PCM would have to be reprogrammed to know that.
3 firing orders?
15426378
13726548
and.....?
The computer doesn't care what the firing order is.
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post #25 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-26-2017, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by sackman9975 View Post
3 firing orders?
15426378
13726548
and.....?
The computer doesn't care what the firing order is.
The PCM "knows" when the #1 ignition is to occur. It "knows" that because one of the openings in the shutter wheel (in the distributor) is different than the others to indicate to the PCM where #1 cylinder is.
I haven't been able to determine what the PCM does with that data. (Start the batch opening of the injectors? adjust the timing?)

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post #26 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-26-2017, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mikey350 View Post
The PCM "knows" when the #1 ignition is to occur. It "knows" that because one of the openings in the shutter wheel (in the distributor) is different than the others to indicate to the PCM where #1 cylinder is.
I haven't been able to determine what the PCM does with that data. (Start the batch opening of the injectors? adjust the timing?)
Right.....but after number 1, it doesn't matter what the firing order is.

My first bronco, 1986 with a 302 factory firing order was 15426378. I dropped in a 92 302HO with firing order 13726548 and used factory computer. It ran great. The PCM isn't the problem here.
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post #27 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-26-2017, 10:57 PM
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Like sackman said. The PCM doesn't give a rats ass for the firing order.

They batch fire the injectors and the fuel sits on the intake valve if the firing order is different from the original. They will still run.

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post #28 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-26-2017, 11:06 PM
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Is the distributor actually turning? In a batch fire sequence the injectors pop a few at a time every call so it would run, not optimally but it would run off of pooled fuel in the intake much like a carburetor. In a sequential fire if the order of injector pulse is not consitant with the valve sequence you are runnning like shit if at all. Keep in mind that the system is port injected so if the PCM loads a cylinder when the valve is not open then does not when the valve is you get fuel pooling in the intake. The beauty of the port injection system is it meters and atomizes the fuel at the precise moment the intake valve opens and stops when the valve is closed. All Ford PCMs have to be set for the same firing order to run properly, the HO is one example of a complete variant on the firing order that will not run if the PCM is not on the same page.
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post #29 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-26-2017, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 445 FE Bronco View Post
Is the distributor actually turning? In a batch fire sequence the injectors pop a few at a time every call so it would run, not optimally but it would run off of pooled fuel in the intake much like a carburetor. In a sequential fire if the order of injector pulse is not consitant with the valve sequence you are runnning like shit if at all. Keep in mind that the system is port injected so if the PCM loads a cylinder when the valve is not open then does not when the valve is you get fuel pooling in the intake. The beauty of the port injection system is it meters and atomizes the fuel at the precise moment the intake valve opens and stops when the valve is closed. All Ford PCMs have to be set for the same firing order to run properly, the HO is one example of a complete variant on the firing order that will not run if the PCM is not on the same page.


His PCM is batch fire, No need to confuse the OP with information thats not going to help his problem.
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post #30 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 10:30 PM
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if fuel is very old, I would start by draining and cleaning tank and fresh fuel before I wasted time on anything else

old fuel will not fire well if at all
I tried recently to run some gas that was just over 1 yr old in my lawnmower, it wouldn't start and that thing will almost run on piss!

that and pull plugs and squirt a couple squirts of oil down each plug hole to help seal rings that dead fuel may be washing the ring seal away

after a bit of cranking ,are any of the plugs wet?
if so, a plug that has been flooded with fuel,new or old, may never fire again!
I have seen it many many times after being flooded the plug never fires again and new plugs were only way to get running

and as far as mechanics go, most that are not old farts have no idea what a distributor is,does or how to lace up plug wires or how to diagnose a problem a computer cannot find for them, let along diagnose a problem after someone has had it apart,and changed things around
I bet it is a simple issue,just have to find it
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post #31 of 42 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 445 FE Bronco View Post
Is the distributor actually turning? In a batch fire sequence the injectors pop a few at a time every call so it would run, not optimally but it would run off of pooled fuel in the intake much like a carburetor. In a sequential fire if the order of injector pulse is not consitant with the valve sequence you are runnning like shit if at all. Keep in mind that the system is port injected so if the PCM loads a cylinder when the valve is not open then does not when the valve is you get fuel pooling in the intake. The beauty of the port injection system is it meters and atomizes the fuel at the precise moment the intake valve opens and stops when the valve is closed. All Ford PCMs have to be set for the same firing order to run properly, the HO is one example of a complete variant on the firing order that will not run if the PCM is not on the same page.
Totally disagree...

The HO I had ran PERFECTLY FINE.

The valves are opening and closing so fast, there's no time for "pooling".
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post #32 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 12:27 PM Thread Starter
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Here's the latest from the 5th mechanic that's looked at it. He says timing all checks out, dizzy stabbed correctly, both firing orders attempted, fresh gas from 60 psi source:

Runs for a maximum of 6 seconds, backfires out the intake and shoots flames from intake.

He feels that the injectors aren't firing correctly. He'd like to try a 302 computer but I think that's gone missing. Any other thoughts??

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post #33 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 12:56 PM
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Was the original engine a 302? with a 302 ECM?

Did it run on the ECM you are trying to start it on right now?

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post #34 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 12:03 AM
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if it is backfiring out the intake,either the firing order is wrong or you have an intake valve not closing ,or even an exhaust valve not opening and the compressed charge is coming back up the intake when the intake valve opens
or it is possible something crawled up the exhaust and died in the muffler causing a blockage

you cant fart too easily if you have a cork stuffed up your arse can you?

perhaps have them do a compression test
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post #35 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trustyrusty View Post
if it is backfiring out the intake,either the firing order is wrong or you have an intake valve not closing ,or even an exhaust valve not opening and the compressed charge is coming back up the intake when the intake valve opens
or it is possible something crawled up the exhaust and died in the muffler causing a blockage

you cant fart too easily if you have a cork stuffed up your arse can you?

perhaps have them do a compression test
I agree, sounds like the cam and the crank are not happy working together.
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post #36 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Mikey350 View Post
The PCM "knows" when the #1 ignition is to occur. It "knows" that because one of the openings in the shutter wheel (in the distributor) is different than the others to indicate to the PCM where #1 cylinder is.
I haven't been able to determine what the PCM does with that data. (Start the batch opening of the injectors? adjust the timing?)
It uses it as a reference for RPM, injector batch timing and dwell, and ignition timing, among other things. Look at the EEC-IV KOER tests and you can see how that input gets referenced into many other things, like cylinder misfire.

The computer needs to know when #1 is at TDC in order to get the timing correct for many things.
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post #37 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by thephalanx View Post
I will say, I had tested fuel pressure to the rail with a gauge, I did have spark but I can't say it matched compression or not, there was plenty of compression at the first plug. I would think any mechanic would start with the basics but I'm not even sure that happened.
Where is the truck and where are you?

Did you check the compression with a gauge or just by feel? Because 45psi compression will feel like 'fine' but not necessarily be enough to sustain combustion sufficient to start.

Off the wall idea - did they use 351 or 302 pushrods? They're different lengths and if accidentally you use long 302 pushrods in a roller 351W (they're close enough that they can *look* okay) the valves still won't open enough to actually get the engine to start or run much at all.
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post #38 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
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The truck is at a shop across town (Las Vegas). All the things just brought up are above and beyond my knowledge really.

Original engine was a 302 with 302 ECM, that computer is lost now, so I don't have a 302 computer to attempt to run the current setup (302 firing order)

It sounds like the firing order is wrong, I agree. We've run both 302 and 351 orders though. I will check with mechanic that compression test was completed, and suggest the bockage thing.

I have no idea what pushrods were used. Anything with engine internals I left to the shop. This is the same shop that chose the camshaft for me though, and I can't tell you why.

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post #39 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 01:09 PM
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as long as the injector order never got moved the spark plug wires should be the only thing changing at the Dizzy for the proper firing order. Now if this was a MAF setup the injector harness would need to match the firing order of the cam.

60psi for the fuel pressure is way to high. it should be around 39psi at the shrader valve on the fuel rail.

since you have an 88 bronco. you can run a 5.8/C6 computer or a 5.8/manual trans computer out of an F250/F350 from 88 - 91.

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post #40 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 03:45 PM Thread Starter
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It is not MAF, so yeah, it shouldn't have a problem.

60psi was just for a test, the truck runs 40psi on it's own.

I have both 5.8 computers from an auto and a manual.

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