im gettin' ready to have my bronco rebuilt - and i really want her to be MORE of a pre-runner than a crawler - but id like to be able to run the rubicon or something like that from time to time...

ive been telling my buddy (rockcrawler) that i dont think a solid axle up front would prerun very well - but he says the TTB wont rockcrawl very well...

is there a happy medium between the two?


drj

90Beater had a solid axle that pivoted in the middle one time

I have a friend with a 78 F-250 with a HD44 coil sprung front, leaf sprung 60 rear on 35s and he jumps it a lot and it takes it quite well. Never bent or broke anything. Hes got a 460 too so its a heavy mother.

As far as a happy medium...thats a tough one. Im no expert on the subject but I think the solid axle will jump (if its a soft coil sprung set up) better than the TTB will rock crawl.

drj777 i know you are new to fsb, but this subject will be sure to open up a can of worms! The history between the sas guys and the ttb guys hasn't been a very loving one!:twak

I really think this discussion would be better in the general 80-96 forum than here in broncospeed.

im gettin' ready to have my bronco rebuilt - and i really want her to be MORE of a pre-runner than a crawler - but id like to be able to run the rubicon or something like that from time to time...

ive been telling my buddy (rockcrawler) that i dont think a solid axle up front would prerun very well - but he says the TTB wont rockcrawl very well...

is there a happy medium between the two?


drj

If you plan to run fast for the majority of your off-road adventures, stick with the TTB. If you plan to crawl more than you run, do an SAS. It's simple. The TTB will handle the 'Con fine with 35's a detroit, Cromo axles and CTM's. A straight axle will go fast with radius arms and a well valved shock set-up. Both set-ups out perform the other in their respective elements. Decide which type of wheeling puts the biggest smile on your face and stick with the front end that best suits it.

drj777 The history between the sas guys and the ttb guys hasn't been a very loving one!

That's changing if we let it. ;)

so the jury is still out...

i figured as much about the TTB not being optimal for crawlin' - but i spend more time running around in the desert than i do crawlin' - i was just hoping there might be a magic bullet (so to speak) for both...

but - there probably isnt and for a good reason:banghead

c'est la vie.

drj

Build the truck for the type of wheeling it will see more often. If it's going to be used for high speed stuff more than wheeling, save yourself a lot of time and work and leave the TTB. Although a well-tuned solid axle suspension is ideal for extreme articulation, a properly set up TTB can perform very well on a lot of slow trails. If you do build up a TTB, make sure it has limit straps and bump stops that will keep the axle-joints from binding and keep in mind that it's a 1/2-ton front end, so it can only do so much.

That said, there have been a few very fast solid axle desert-racers and they can work well, but never better than IFS.

Build the truck for the type of wheeling it will see more often. If it's going to be used for high speed stuff more than wheeling, save yourself a lot of time and work and leave the TTB. Although a well-tuned solid axle suspension is ideal for extreme articulation, a properly set up TTB can perform very well on a lot of slow trails. If you do build up a TTB, make sure it has limit straps and bump stops that will keep the axle-joints from binding and keep in mind that it's a 1/2-ton front end, so it can only do so much.

That said, there have been a few very fast solid axle desert-racers and they can work well, but never better than IFS.


thanks!!:beer

sounds like shes gonna stay TTB and get some nice suspension front and back!!

drj
:thumbup

sounds like youd be best with the TTB. Keep in mind that the attributes that help a TTB go fast will also help it in the rocks, IE: articulation, stronger axles, etc. Ive gone through some decent size rock pits on 4"s of TTB lift and 35s. Also keep this in mind in regards to the rubicon...stock Jeeps can make it through...(Im not trying to bash jeeps, just giving some perspective)

Edit: Another benefit of the TTB; its already there!

well - i DEEPLY enjoy pre-running - seems like all i wanna do is go fast and make noise...so i guess its a no-brainer...AND it sounds like if i goose up the axles i can get a LOT more out of my TTB frontend anyway!!:thumbup

its sort of like asking your friend who plays bass - which instrument you should play...d'oh!:rofl:

i think i got my answer - thanks a bunch fellas...i'll keep ya posted!!

drj

any of you guys make it to TDS this past year in ocotillo??

look at camburg or autofab. its still ttb and is awesome for pre-running, but those setups allow for a lot of travel, which may help in rock crawling. keep in mind they widen your front track a couple of inches.

i know the autofab kit is LEGENDARY - but expensive...and ive heard that camburg has a spendy kit and a not-so spendy kit...

i'll give em a call tomorrow to see whats what...

thanks!!:beer

drj

sounds like youd be best with the TTB. Keep in mind that the attributes that help a TTB go fast will also help it in the rocks, IE: articulation, stronger axles, etc. Ive gone through some decent size rock pits on 4"s of TTB lift and 35s. Also keep this in mind in regards to the rubicon...stock Jeeps can make it through...(Im not trying to bash jeeps, just giving some perspective)

Edit: Another benefit of the TTB; its already there!

I'd say that's not really true. In order for the TTB to go fast, it has to have a coil spring/leaf/shock package meant for the high speed impacts (a longer coil which is good, but a higher rate as well, bad for trails). Yes it will need to travel, but it can't be soft or no high speed. On the flip side on a slow trail crawl, you need the suspension to be "soft" so that it responds to low speed inputs. Both can have lots of axle movement, but the input required to get that movement are totally different, and so the suspensions are desiged quite differently.

A decent medium here might be to run a coil that is variable rate, soft at the start, firming as it compresses.

One thing as well with the TTB and trails...I never liked the tippy feeling I'd get when the TTB was always lifting a tire. even with longer travel, the tire swings inward more than a solid axle, so you still get that feeling. Until you've wheeled a solid front axle, you don't get how dramatically better it feels to have the front more firmly planted in offcamber/slow trail riding.

Also keep this in mind in regards to the rubicon...stock Jeeps can make it through...(Im not trying to bash jeeps, just giving some perspective)

stock jeeps also run solid axles :twak

i know the autofab kit is LEGENDARY - but expensive...and ive heard that camburg has a spendy kit and a not-so spendy kit...

i'll give em a call tomorrow to see whats what...

thanks!!:beer

drj

BUY THE BEST FIRST AND ONLY CRY ONCE. Words to live by. I'll be the first to agree that Autofab parts are not the cheapest but then the best never is.

i know the autofab kit is LEGENDARY - but expensive...and ive heard that camburg has a spendy kit and a not-so spendy kit...
drj

Autofab originated the econo-kit. Either one will work fine though.

Regardless, If you're not in a hurry, I would look for used parts. You can save a TON of money (if you buy the right parts). If you wait long enough, most of my suspension might be for sale....

Autofab originated the econo-kit. Either one will work fine though.

Regardless, If you're not in a hurry, I would look for used parts. You can save a TON of money (if you buy the right parts). If you wait long enough, most of my suspension might be for sale....

And what is "long enough"???

Find another toy?

Chase

I'd say that's not really true. In order for the TTB to go fast, it has to have a coil spring/leaf/shock package meant for the high speed impacts (a longer coil which is good, but a higher rate as well, bad for trails). Yes it will need to travel, but it can't be soft or no high speed.

I disagree with this. The shock's low frequency compression valving carries the majority of the load in high speed applications. The spring just holds the vehicle up. Heavier vehicles require larger shocks to control compression forces. Higher spring rates only compensate for inadequate valving and or shock sizes.

I disagree with this. The shock's low frequency compression valving carries the majority of the load in high speed applications. The spring just holds the vehicle up. Heavier vehicles require larger shocks to control compression forces. Higher spring rates only compensate for inadequate valving and or shock sizes.

We're going off-topic now, but oh well.

There are differing opinions on spring rates and valving and how they should work together.

Some say the springs should hold the truck up to static ride-height and nothing more. The shock should do the rest of the work.

Here's the problem I have with this:

Lets say you're at speed through some really long rollers. You're at the bottom of a roller. Your suspension is almost completely compressed because you have very little spring rate and at those low (suspension) speeds the shocks are doing very little. NOW, you hit a bump at the bottom of this roller, you have little to no bump travel left and all of the sudden you're airborne from a bump that you normally wouldn't even feel.

This can also happen in a hard turn. Personally I think there's a good happy medium.

All that aside, While I think (for example) my truck could do relatively well on a trail, It wouldn't be a lot of work to swap coils if I really wanted to temporarily make it more trail capable.

And what is "long enough"???

Find another toy?

Chase

No new toy. Unless I sell this one... my toys are always for sale :D.

I've been considering trying some ideas on my truck. Nothing revolutionary, just some different approaches. Or just scrap it all and build another Explorer. I miss having 4 doors!

BUY THE BEST FIRST AND ONLY CRY ONCE. Words to live by. I'll be the first to agree that Autofab parts are not the cheapest but then the best never is.

i hear that - my grandma was right - in most cases - you DO get what you pay for...

STEVE G how long is long enough??? i do in fact have some time to devote to another project before i get the bronco up on blocks...keep me posted - im am more than seriously interested:popc1:

drj
:chili:

Hey Steve,

Don't get rid of that nice rig of yours. The class 3 that I am building is going to retain it's original 86 grill and my Autofab fenders and hood that fit that grill are all done and ready to be picked up at John's shop. I like that old school look. I'm sure you'll get a pretty penny for your ride if you decide to sell it.

Chris

stock jeeps also run solid axles :twak

Im well aware, I was just pointing out that a stock (while still quite capable) jeep can make it through. I was trying to make the connection that if a stock jeep can get through then a highly modified bronco, even if its set up as a pre runner, should also be able to make it through. Altough something to consider is size, with a wide vehicle like a bronco you stand a higher chance of body damage.

Lets say you're at speed through some really long rollers. You're at the bottom of a roller. Your suspension is almost completely compressed because you have very little spring rate and at those low (suspension) speeds the shocks are doing very little. NOW, you hit a bump at the bottom of this roller, you have little to no bump travel left and all of the sudden you're airborne from a bump that you normally wouldn't even feel.

The answer: Air bumps and lots of sidewall

But seriously.....I think regardless of spring rate, if you're running hard you'll bottom the suspension from time to time. A bottomless suspension is not using all of it's travel. Air bumps are there to take the edge off of those hard impacts and rebound control will keep the rubber in the dirt. The condition you stated is a tough one. Regardless of set-up, it's not going to feel warm and fuzzy. If it does, the rest of the ride will be mediocre at best. That being said, yeah, I agree......happy medium.

I disagree with this. The shock's low frequency compression valving carries the majority of the load in high speed applications. The spring just holds the vehicle up. Heavier vehicles require larger shocks to control compression forces. Higher spring rates only compensate for inadequate valving and or shock sizes.

All I can tell ya is no matter what shock package you put on mine (it would have to be several heavily valved ones for the front), I don't believe you'd be happy with the results in the desert at speed. The coil certainly is long enough for lots of travel, but I just don't believe you'd be able to soak up bumps with the trucks weight and this soft of a spring. Works great on a trail though. For a TTB runner, these would be gone in a heartbeat, and I'd rip out the low TTB towers and get a longer tower and a long, stiffer coil. I think Plug used or still uses a TTB coil for an 8" long travel suspension that definitely is stiffer than a Deaver, would likely work much better on a runner, and still does nice on trails (though I think he wants the softer deavers).

so after that long winded paragraph, I guess that puts me in the other camp of folks that believe the coil is doing more of the suspension work than you seem to think. I think the shock is only there for proper damping of a coil with a tuned rate to match the work (high speed, major bumps or jumps being far different work than slow speed trail articulating). So you could do Steve's suggestion and change coils, or look into something variable that might be a workable compromise for both activities.

That's changing if we let it. ;)

I'm a new guy here. I must have missed the great debate?:boxing

The debate is still rolling newb :rofl: :toothless

Seriously, they each have their pros and cons. Neither one is completely superior to the other.

I don't know enough about high speed running to make much of an argument, but from the outside, it looks like the coil should be doing a little more than just holding ride height...

bronco's are cheap... buy two :beer

STEVE G how long is long enough???

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