All right I've been working on suspension stuff for the last couple of years and this summer have finally gotten to get it out and see what is working and what is not.

Who else is "airing out" their solid axle rigs?

From Dune fest at Winchester bay Oregon
Due to some motor issues the play time got cut a little short. We did begin to see that the suspension needed better bump stops.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/551174/fullsize/try2_0002.jpg

Vid

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/551172/fullsize/try2.wmv

Sand lake Oregon, SOB Bronco run
This is a lot longer jump than it looks in the video maybe 80 feet in distance. And you can really hear the coils go into "bind" on landing.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/557869/fullsize/sob-07.wmv

And now the latest, I added some "energy suspension" Polly bumpstops which helped a bunch. Also the rear upper shock mounts were raised to stop the shocks from bottoming. Both made a big difference in how the rig "settled" after landing. I did "lawn Dart" off of a 5'-8' tall Razor back and stuffed the right front hard enough to destroy the polly BS. Next step will be Nitrogen/Oil
Hyd. bump stops.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/560197/fullsize/labor-day-07_0001.jpg

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/560214/fullsize/labor-day-07.wmv

I welcome any feed back on shock selection/valving or what your experiences with nitrogen/oil bump stops has been. How to position and tune them.

:beer

the best thing I can tell you...

http://www.race-dezert.com

Search in there...

There is a whole "Shop-Suspension" forum... TONS AND TONS of info there.. On shocks, bumps etc..

Plus, you could probably call Chris @ F-O-A, and talk with him.. but, F-O-As website also has a shock calculator...

With the hydro bumps...

You need a place to mount it(weld in frame cups etc), and a strike surface.

Shocks, for simple, off the shelf, the Bilstein 5100/5150s are what I am thinking on.. when I have the fundage...

Chase

Air bumps are only way to go. This is kind of an interesting thread because im just starting to build a long travel 78 bronco prerunner. Coilovers and bypass shocks in the front and bypasses in the rear. 2 1/2 inch fox airbumps all the way around as well! Hoping to get 16-17 inches of travel in the front and around 18 in the rear. Are you running Cage arms Archer? I think that is what im going to use. If all goes well this will be turned into a long travel kit that will be available to all, Complete with track bar and steering to get rid of any bumpsteer. Might have to remove the stock a/c box though, we will see.

Air bumps are only way to go. This is kind of an interesting thread because im just starting to build a long travel 78 bronco prerunner. Coilovers and bypass shocks in the front and bypasses in the rear. 2 1/2 inch fox airbumps all the way around as well! Hoping to get 16-17 inches of travel in the front and around 18 in the rear. Are you running Cage arms Archer? I think that is what im going to use. If all goes well this will be turned into a long travel kit that will be available to all, Complete with track bar and steering to get rid of any bumpsteer. Might have to remove the stock a/c box though, we will see.

I am running the cage arms and around 15-16" of front travel. I did remove the AC stuff and put a standard non air heater system in mine to allow for an upcoming engine bay cage and cross over support for the shock/spring towers. I would eventually like to go to Coil overs and some kind of trailing arm rear system. My dilemma is finding just how much shock and suspension travel I can get without pushing the shocks through into the rear interior.

Thanks for the link and info chasespeed

My dilemma is finding just how much shock and suspension travel I can get without pushing the shocks through into the rear interior.

I imagine the dimensions of the rear suspension and surrounding body/floor panels are similar to the later TTB Broncos. If that's the case then a 12" shock (Sway-A-Ways are the shortest) might be your best bet. A 10" would allow for better shock angles but would limit wheel travel a bit... might not be a big deal for your application.

I agree air bumps are a necessity for big air, but it looks like you need a lot more damping as well.

mkiefer, when are you going to start some threads to show us more of your work?

I imagine the dimensions of the rear suspension and surrounding body/floor panels are similar to the later TTB Broncos. If that's the case then a 12" shock (Sway-A-Ways are the shortest) might be your best bet. A 10" would allow for better shock angles but would limit wheel travel a bit... might not be a big deal for your application.

I agree air bumps are a necessity for big air, but it looks like you need a lot more damping as well.


I'm currently running a 12" shock and I think I can get another 1-2 inches with a new upper hoop that I have in work. That is with the shocks mounted to the lower leading edge of the rear housing.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/545051/fullsize/t-bar-2.jpg

Do you feel it is more compression damping needed? I was wondering if staging the air bumps to create a progressive damping rate on compression is the right thing to do allowing for a softer damping rate until the suspension is heavily loaded in compression.

On rebound damping does a guy want to keep it fairly soft to allow for the suspension to "droop out" quickly?

Like a lot of things I'm just begin'n to learn how much I don't know here.;)

What about running the cage arms to the back aswell? Been thinking about this as a set up? Thoughts?

What about running the cage arms to the back aswell? Been thinking about this as a set up? Thoughts?

I've seen it done several times and Jim tells me that his customers that have done it really like the results. I would be more inclined to fab my own arms and upper link to use coil overs. and put things where I want them under the back.

I'm currently running a 12" shock and I think I can get another 1-2 inches with a new upper hoop that I have in work. That is with the shocks mounted to the lower leading edge of the rear housing.

Do you feel it is more compression damping needed? I was wondering if staging the air bumps to create a progressive damping rate on compression is the right thing to do allowing for a softer damping rate until the suspension is heavily loaded in compression.

On rebound damping does a guy want to keep it fairly soft to allow for the suspension to "droop out" quickly?

Like a lot of things I'm just begin'n to learn how much I don't know here.;)

My rear shocks are mounted in the stock lower mount. They hang down low, but for my application they don't interfere. Even with the stock lower mounts the shock angle is far less than ideal. Be careful that you don't lean the shock over too much. More angle = less damping... especially when you need it most (full compression).

Shock valving can be tricky and every driver and vehicle is different, so what works for one doesn't for another. I'm by no means an expert, but I would definitely add more compression valving. How much is tough to say. You need to get a baseline and adjust from there. On my truck I run very little rebound valving. I like for the wheels to droop fast so the suspension doesn't pack in rough sections.

I understand that most shock manufacturers are looking to get 1-1 ratios now and that canting the shock will change that ratio and the shocks effective damping.

I'm curious to see if adding the air bumps will allow me to effectively add more damping at full suspension compression. I still would ideally like to get around 15-17" of rear travel to match the front and make it work very well within those limits.

This is a multi purpose toy, it does see a lot of sand time and I'm sure that that will only increase. it also will go to Moab once a year or so and do some general trail duty here in the woods around home. The focus though is moving more toward a pre-runner style of truck.

Are the Bilstein 5100 or 5150's adjustable rebuildable etc.? I'll do a web search to learn some more about em'

Steve what is it about the way my truck handles/reacts that tells you more damping is needed?

I'm curious to see if adding the air bumps will allow me to effectively add more damping at full suspension compression.

Properly mounted air bumps will make a huge difference, but you need to start slowing the suspension down before it contacts the air bump.

Are the Bilstein 5100 or 5150's adjustable rebuildable etc.? I'll do a web search to learn some more about em'

Neither are meant to be disassembled and re-valved, but the 5100s can be. They need to be modified to do so, but it's not too much work. I would stay away from the 5150s.

I recommend finding a true rebuildable reservoir shock. It doesn't sound like you pound on the truck for miles at a time, so heat probably isn't an issue and there's a good chance that a properly valved 2.0" reservoir shock would enough for you. Step up to a 2.5" shock and you'll never look back and definitely never regret it. Even if you buy at full retail.

Whatever you decide on, I highly recommend buying used, you can find some really good deals on the Race-Dezert and Dezert-Rangers classifieds. Any brand (King, Fox, Sway-A-Way, Bilstein), they can all work great (or terribly depending on valving).

Steve what is it about the way my truck handles/reacts that tells you more damping is needed?

The multiple bounces after landing. Even without air bumps you could make your truck land MUCH smoother with good shocks and good valving.

Ok Thanks Steve, I'll spend some time in the classifieds and see what I can find.

I assumed the extra bounces was what you were seeing but being new to this I thought I would ask and see if I was missing something.

Your correct, I doubt I will ever see more than a mile or two of constant suspension cycling, more short sprints and bursts through the dunes. The idea would be to design the system with a little overkill rather than just enough to get by though, so heat should be thought about some. I like the idea of good reservoir shocks.

I am still debating the idea of my rear suspension design. As I build the cage I kind of need to make a decision as to weather I intend to go to coil overs in the rear or not. My thought would be to eliminate the rear bench and replace it with two more suspension seats placed close together allowing room for the shocks to come up through and mount into the cage.

The other option being to live within what I can get for travel keeping everything tucked under the tub. If we assume the dimensions to be very close between the later model trucks and mine what kind of total travel can one get from either a well thought out leaf or trailing arm rear system keeping it under the tub?

I would assume substantially more can be had by pushing through into the interior.

Thanks for indulging my questions :beer

Archer I love the title of this thread as well as the pics you posted. It's good to see a straight axle rig step up. I've always wondered how the rockcrawler style anti-wrap bar would perform in a go fast situation and have been tempted to try it myself. Keep us posted long term on how it holds up in the whoops, jumps, etc.

Archer I love the title of this thread as well as the pics you posted. It's good to see a straight axle rig step up. I've always wondered how the rockcrawler style anti-wrap bar would perform in a go fast situation and have been tempted to try it myself. Keep us posted long term on how it holds up in the whoops, jumps, etc.

Funny you should ask....

The bar was built from 1-3/8" .188 wall DOM. I felt that it should hold up based on the experience of other rigs I've seen.... in fact was told I had over built it. But those guys are running a touch less HP and staying on the ground ...... at walking speeds.

After running Dune fest I noticed a small smile in the short tube section ahead of the union of the two bars.
After last weekend at Florence ... it's now two pieces. :doh0715:
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/560639/fullsize/broken-2.jpg

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/560638/fullsize/broken-1.jpg

There are no signs of binding at the swing link not even paint chips where it would have had to make contact for it to have bound and broken in this manner.

The redesign will carry the two bars to the far end and join them at the forward bushing. with a plated gusset on both sides. I am further considering some kind of shock load absorbing joint in the upper bar. to allow for landing under hard throttle. I assume that is what creates enough rotational force in the rear housing to do this kind of damage.

Stock cars have used something similar for years to help tune forward bite and control housing rotation/spring wrap

I hope some others will step up and share some stories as well as builds and solutions based on solid axle set ups. :toothless

Hey Archer, I'd go with the 2.5 shocks like Steve sugested but buying new has some advantage because the manufacturer can set them up much closer with info from you than trial and error on your own and then just have to fine tune. How often do you get down to the Oregon Dunes? I try to go with my family every winter around February. Alot less Quads to dodge that time of year. I just love that place. I'd like to see your rig in action.

We are really just starting to get down there. I went for dune fest and that was our first trip to the southern coast dunes. Before we had done all of our trips to Sand Lake which is only a little over an hour away.

We will be making another trip the 21-23 of this month to shake down a new (used) sand rail we got for my wife and of course "wring out" the Bronco some more.

I will probably look for a buy on some used shocks and begin to learn about the porting etc in the piston. I happen to own a CNC shop so creating new pistons/ ports etc will be kind of fun. I always dig learning something new.

If it ever works out, I would love to hook up with you or anybody going that direction at the same time.
:beer

The other option being to live within what I can get for travel keeping everything tucked under the tub. If we assume the dimensions to be very close between the later model trucks and mine what kind of total travel can one get from either a well thought out leaf or trailing arm rear system keeping it under the tub?

I would assume substantially more can be had by pushing through into the interior.

Thanks for indulging my questions :beer

It would be a lot of work to build a coil-over linked rear suspension while keeping it all under the stock floor. Not to say it can't be done, just a lot of work.

my Bronco has 15-26" of rear wheel travel. Supposedly 18 is possible. Either is plenty. Leduc built Broncos are linked and from what I've heard have 16-18" of travel but the coil-overs go through the floor, leaving enough room for one rear passenger. I think you can get the performance you're after while still keeping the shocks under the floor, especially if you use air bumps.

The redesign will carry the two bars to the far end and join them at the forward bushing.

I think that alone would cure your issues.

I have a 2-link kit on my truck and love the way it works. I've seen trucks with tens of thousands of off-road miles on them using 2-link kits, so durability isn't an issue. The only complaint I hear (from people that haven't used them) is that they hang down too low. But, everyone I know that has used them swears by them.

BTW: Cool truck, great pics! I'd invite you to Pismo, but our dunes pale in comparison to yours.

I think that alone would cure your issues......
BTW: Cool truck, great pics! I'd invite you to Pismo, but our dunes pale in comparison to yours.

Thanks Steve, It's definitely a "work in progress" I am really going to begin to look after the safety issues now. It's getting a full cage and suspension seats for the rear passengers. Tube pre-runner flavored bumpers and some other things like moving the bats to the rear and perhaps a fuel cell which is smaller than my current 30 gal stock tank.

Anyhow would love to see Pismo some time, definitely Glamis.

PS Two seats will fit in the back with the shocks comimg though the body. They need to be mounted outboard on top of the springs anyway. Its tight but can be done. As far as shocks go bigger is usally better! Your bronco is going to weigh around 6000# after the cage and stuff. Go to AT LEAST a 2.5"

PS Two seats will fit in the back with the shocks comimg though the body. They need to be mounted outboard on top of the springs anyway. Its tight but can be done.

Again...pics!

We're going to keep badgering you until you give us more!:toothless

Again...pics!

We're going to keep badgering you until you give us more!:toothless

I know!!! This weekend.

mkiefer, we're going to plan a camping trip at Pismo/Oceano Dunes, you up for it?

When?

I'm not sure yet. we need to start throwing out some dates. I can do it just about anytime, but I'm guessing people that are going to the 1000 are going to want to do it next year?

I'll make a thread so everyone can post their preferred dates.

Ill keep my eyes open for it. And yes ill go

PS Two seats will fit in the back with the shocks comimg though the body. They need to be mounted outboard on top of the springs anyway. Its tight but can be done. As far as shocks go bigger is usally better! Your bronco is going to weigh around 6000# after the cage and stuff. Go to AT LEAST a 2.5"

That is what I thought with what I had been looking at so far, short of actually laying it out in cad or taking any real measurements. Was it you planning on running the leaves with a by-pass shock in the rear? I was wondering how well that would work as compared to a link set up and coils?

Rodger on the 6K I'm at 5500 now and the winch,cage and bumpers/skids well push it to 6 or over.... so what I should really dream about are quad bypass 3" for the rear and a set of 3" coil overs in the front??

I know!!! This weekend.

I second the pics request... I wanna see what your up to so I can pilfer some ideas :toothless

That sounds like a good plan. The rear bypasses are very loud just so you know.

That sounds like a good plan. The rear bypasses are very loud just so you know.

There isn't anything quiet about my rig... why quit now. It must be possible then to make the rear leaves function well with up to 16" of travel with the right damping?

Ok so I answered my own question by taking a minute to search some of your posts.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/522746/fullsize/dsc00006.jpg

This looks like a trick set up that would work well for my application to.
Can you give me an idea of what Deaver dinged you for the springs?

Those are 2wd f150 springs. 18 inchs of travel. 2 extra leefs. weighs 5800#


inside
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/560918/fullsize/pc210034.jpg

shock boxes
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/560919/fullsize/pc280097.jpg

with top and one tire
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/560921/fullsize/pc210049.jpg

That looks very clean. What's the dim between the shock boxes? Could the boxes be built smaller if you intended back seats and still have adequate clearance around the shocks?
What material is the cage constructed from?

Cage is 2" .120 DOM on the main structure. 1 3/4 laceing. All DOM. The boxes could be smaller for sure. Basicly the shocks are centered on the springs. The frame is 38" outside to outside so the boxes could be 38 between no problem.

Cage is 2" .120 DOM on the main structure. 1 3/4 laceing. All DOM. The boxes could be smaller for sure. Basicly the shocks are centered on the springs. The frame is 38" outside to outside so the boxes could be 38 between no problem.

What are your feelings about DOM verses Chrom-moly? I have a good Tig so I can fab from either.

For something that sees alot of abuse and not alot of attention(ex prerunner,chase truck, play toy) I perfer DOM because its strong but does not have the brittleness of 4130. For a race car, ultimate strength and light weight 4130 is the way to go! Oh and I am just happy you didnt ask about pipe,cause the only thing it is good for is floor drains! lol

I try and stay away from the "hillbilly fab" stuff when I can...no pipe. I think I will go with DOM, cheaper and I'm not sure the 50 lbs or so I could save in the cage would be worth the extra effort and time to anneal all the welds after sticking it together.

Do you have any pics of how the cage is tied into the frame?

And by the way is there no one else in this forum who plays hard with a solid axle rig????

And by the way is there no one else in this forum who plays hard with a solid axle rig????

No one else here is that dumb.




KIDDING! I swear! You left the door wide open and I just had to. :histerica

Man.....always knew I was a little "thick" :toothless

Any more progress on your mods Archer?? I really like what you are doing with your rig.

Later
RK

No not yet really. I'll be building a new shock hoop/cross-member for the rear this week and fixing the broken traction bar.

We'll be "thrashing" at the Florence dunes on the 21-23rd. I've got extra camping spots available if anyone wants to come along ??? room for three rigs I think at this time

I used to beat on mine all the time. had it in the air quite abit and blasted woops.
Here is the beginning of a pretty good jump. Have it on video somewhere
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t271/4wheelinbro/launch.jpg

I used to beat on mine all the time. had it in the air quite abit and blasted woops.
Here is the beginning of a pretty good jump. Have it on video somewhere
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t271/4wheelinbro/launch.jpg

Hey Kiddo! waz up? Have you gotten another go fast rig yet?

I used to beat on mine all the time. had it in the air quite abit and blasted woops.
Here is the beginning of a pretty good jump. Have it on video somewhere


I had seen some pictures of yours before in other threads. It was a cool rig. What did you find as weak points? On our last trip out I was very pleased at how well mine ran over the woops at Florence on the sand access roads.

Ok first a repost warning..I put these in the FOTY thread as well but thought they should go here too.

Sand lake 12-9-07
Too much fun...............some wheel stands.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591145/fullsize/jumps-2d.jpg

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591144/fullsize/jumps-2c.jpg

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591143/fullsize/jumps-2b.jpg



first sequence with some air.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591154/fullsize/up1.jpg

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591155/fullsize/up2.jpg

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591156/fullsize/up3.jpg

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591157/fullsize/up4.jpg

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591158/fullsize/up5.jpg

The vid :shocked
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591101/thumbnail/591101.jpg (http://www.supermotors.net/clubs/2bigbroncos/vehicles/registry/media/591101)

Bigger air...

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591160/fullsize/wayup1.jpg

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591161/fullsize/wayup2.jpg

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591162/fullsize/wayup3.jpg

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591163/fullsize/wayup4.jpg

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591164/fullsize/wayup5.jpg

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591165/fullsize/wayup6.jpg

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591166/fullsize/wayup7.jpg

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591167/fullsize/wayup8.jpg


Ok, lots of fun... the day ended badly though with a broken rear end.... I mean scattered!!!

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591150/fullsize/ouch1.jpg

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591151/fullsize/puddle1.jpg

That happened while making a full throttle speed run across the flats later in the day....:banghead

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591102/thumbnail/591102.jpg (http://www.supermotors.net/clubs/2bigbroncos/vehicles/registry/media/591102)

Looks great Archer! Thanks for the pics.

Cool pics. Ahhh did i get used to breaking stuff in the rear end. While I had my bronco I broke two driveshafts, two third members, and one axle shaft. One reason i sold mine, it was a money pit

Heres some videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU63k7TuteM&feature=user

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goeJ6Zb6TR4&feature=user

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z081pjYoRYE

Heres another old video. this one is from last halloween

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MPr2Vb5vTk

Heres another old video. this one is from last halloween

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MPr2Vb5vTk

Some cool stuff Crawler...:toothless

What kind of axle trussing do you guys have that jump with D44's? I've see the axle in the Moss Bros truck, however I do a lot of rock crawling and trail riding with mine so I don't want to loose the gound clearance. But then I also know that with out it being trussed it isn't going to handle too many jumps.

What kind of axle trussing do you guys have that jump with D44's? I've see the axle in the Moss Bros truck, however I do a lot of rock crawling and trail riding with mine so I don't want to loose the gound clearance. But then I also know that with out it being trussed it isn't going to handle too many jumps.

I'm currently going "Sans Truss" although I appear to have already bent mine some....among other things. I will be building a trussed housing along the same design as what the Moss bro. have used for mine next.... right after repairing the hole in the rear housing.

I never ran a front truss either. I was always worried about bending it though. Especially when landing on one side of the front end but I don't think it ever bend, but yes by looking at pics it appears it or balljoints were flexing