Its in the news:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-08-18-college-drinking_N.htm

What do you think?

I say lower it to 18, and buying cigs to 18. IMHO if 18 means you can vote, kill, or die for this country, then you should be able to enjoy the freedoms and the products that every other adult age allows.

Discuss

18 for smokes
21 for drinking. I think there is alot of maturing which happens between 18-21.

Its already 19 here for drinking.

I guess I should have clarified. USA law changes. :goodfinge

I see this thread getting a U-Haul and moving.......

I agree that if you can die for this country then you should be able to drink in this country.

basically its just voting to see if you can go to a bar when your 18. i say no keep it how it is.

I see this thread getting a U-Haul and moving.......

If people keep it civil it should be ok. The FACT of the matter is, YES you can join the military, police force, fire dept at 18, and YES it is possible that you may or may not be killed or kill in the line of duty, but the same goes if you are a Fireman, Police Officer, or even an air traffic controller. So if someone gets upset at the politics then they are ASSuming I am only leaning to the side of military/war/etc. which just isnt true.

I agree that if you can die for this country then you should be able to drink in this country.
:stupid
Coming from someone that has been military for 15 years.

18 for smokes
21 for drinking. I think there is alot of maturing which happens between 18-21.

I respect and understand your opinion. For the sake of being the devils advocate though, wouldnt you consider buying a gun or becoming a police officer something that should hold a higher maturity rate than buying a beer?

the last thing we need is a bunch of little homos fresh out of high school/still in high school thinking they can out drink the world and then drive home.
i just dont think the majority of 18 y/0s are mature enough to handle it yet. granted underage drinking is still an issue it def hampers the amount of intake.
plus when you lower the age to that much the younger kids would have more of a chance to be exposed to it as well

I respect and understand your opinion. For the sake of being the devils advocate though, wouldnt you consider buying a gun or becoming a police officer something that should hold a higher maturity rate than buying a beer?

i don't think i have ever seen a cop that young before, he would be the doogie howser of cops. many cities demand that candidates have a bachelors degree and i think all demand you pass some sort of classes which seem to take a few years at least.

as for handguns, i thought a person had to be 21 for one of those as well? i don't know for sure but someone will know.

in AZ you must be 21 to be a cop and to buy a hand gun from a FFL. you can buy a hand gun from a private party at 18. even though i think most 18 year olds are kids i do think they should be allowed to drink because you can join the military. Better yet allow those serving their country the right to drink before 21. then theres no problems. want to drink? sign these papers.

You have to be 21 to be a police officer, I've looked into it because I had planned on becoming a police officer.







The laws should stay the same, but with the addition of the legalization of marijuana. For those of you that have both "driven" under the influence of both alcohol and marijuana, which would you say was safer? I'd say being "high from marijuana" is MUCH safer than driving while tired or under the influence of alcohol. I'm not advising anyone to drive while intoxicated, but marijuana effects your motor skills and reaction times noticeably less.

i think that both the drinking and killing age should be the same, whether they make them both 18 or 21, it doesn't matter. In psychology, back in college, I was taught that the human brain quits growing around the age of twenty one (that would lower if they make the drinking age eighteen :rofl:) and people views and preferences tend to stay the same from then on. This would explain why the military wants people at 18, because it would be easier to "brain wash" them. At the same time, I remember how bad it was going to clubs that let 18 and over in when I was 21+. I couldn't imagine what it would be like if 18 year olds could drink legally. I, myself, did partake is the illegal consumtion of alcoholic beverages prior to turning the legal age, but, I was WAY mature for my age.:thumbup

A recent Associated Press analysis of federal records found that 157 college-age people, 18 to 23, drank themselves to death from 1999 through 2005.

These types of quoted studies (from article) annoy the crap out of me. How many people, aged 18 to 23, are there in the United States? Now, multiply that number by 7 (1999-2005). 157 is a pretty low number considering the number of people that are drinking. And especially the number of 21 year olds there are. I remember some of my 21st birthday, and I'll ASSume that 50% of people do the same thing I did, adn drank a loooooooot. Again 157 is a low number.:beer

There is definitely alot of maturing happening between the ages of 18 and 21. But, like others have stated...if you can fight and die for this country, and live with that responsibility, I believe you should be able to handle having alcoholic drinks. I mean hell, there are so many responsibilities you are supposed to carry when turning 18. The whole idea of moving out of your parents home, and supporting yourself. Deciding on a path to take that can determine the rest of your life. You can buy a shotgun. You can drive a vehicle, and take everyones life around you into your hands depending on how you drive.

Bottom line is, when you get to the age of 18 you are well aware of alcohol. You know what it can do, and you know why majority of people drink it. Even if you cannot buy it yourself, you can get it from some one else...whether it be a friend, parent, relative, or a liquor store selling to you illegally. I had one that sold to me all three years of college before I turned 21.

And really, how can someone talk about the level of maturity with age and drinking? People die every half hour (heard that on tv last night) from a drunk driving related accident. I can pretty much guarantee that the majority of those accidents were people over 21.

There is definitely alot of maturing happening between the ages of 18 and 21. But, like others have stated...if you can fight and die for this country, and live with that responsibility, I believe you should be able to handle having alcoholic drinks. I mean hell, there are so many responsibilities you are supposed to carry when turning 18. The whole idea of moving out of your parents home, and supporting yourself. Deciding on a path to take that can determine the rest of your life. You can buy a shotgun. You can drive a vehicle, and take everyones life around you into your hands depending on how you drive.

Bottom line is, when you get to the age of 18 you are well aware of alcohol. You know what it can do, and you know why majority of people drink it. Even if you cannot buy it yourself, you can get it from some one else...whether it be a friend, parent, relative, or a liquor store selling to you illegally. I had one that sold to me all three years of college before I turned 21.

And really, how can someone talk about the level of maturity with age and drinking? People die every half hour (heard that on tv last night) from a drunk driving related accident. I can pretty much guarantee that the majority of those accidents were people over 21.

I agree completely. I don't drink but I don't feel it's right that alcohol is a grown up drink you can't get when you're legally an adult.

You can't be a police officer in my neck of the woods until 21 either. Have to be able to get a concealed carry permit, which you have to be 21 to get, and you have to be 21 to buy a pistol. But also in my neck of the woods you have to be 19 to buy tobacco, not 18.

I am also one that thinks the laws of current should stay. I drank when I was underage. I was able to get my hands on it. But you put it in the hands of 18-19 y/os, it makes it just that much easier. you may be aware of what alcohol does, but I dont think the average kid can handle it correctly. Yes I could have been killed in my military service when I was underage. Hell I went to the desert when I was under 21. But they repay you in their own ways.

I was 20 when I was overseas and I was still given one of these.
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/202356/fullsize/beercard.jpg

overseas you only have to be 18 to be able to drink in the military. Just cant in the US.

Also, I have not researched the statistics of drinking age and related incidents, but look at European countries. The minimum drinking age their is 18 and sometimes lower. Why can they handle it and us not?

And really, how can someone talk about the level of maturity with age and drinking? People die every half hour (heard that on tv last night) from a drunk driving related accident. I can pretty much guarantee that the majority of those accidents were people over 21.

Agree, but the people that usually die in those accidents were the ones that weren't drinking. But, the drunk drivers tend to over 21...or famous.

Also, I have not researched the statistics of drinking age and related incidents, but look at European countries. The minimum drinking age their is 18 and sometimes lower. Why can they handle it and us not?

because they are more evolved and better than us. :goodfinge

i wonder how bad DD is over in europe and other countries with lower legal age limits.

i have read/seen on tv that it is very bad down in Mexico.

OK, my bad about the officer thing. I do know that at 18 you can go into Cabelas as buy a shotgun or hunting rifle. I guess if you are going to split hairs, I never mentioned anything about a CCW permit. I didnt know you HAD to have a CCW permit to be an officer. I figured since they carry their side arm in their holster on their hip that they wouldnt necessarily need a CCW permit. My bad.

drink at 16
smoke MJ or cigs at 18
drive at 21.

mj 0.02 USD .. or .. 0.005 EU

Also let me be my own devils advocate and say that I wouldnt want my kids to drink or smoke before 21 (Or ever smoke period) and I certainly wouldnt want them joining the military at 18 either.

I think 21 is the age where most people can make mature and informative risks instead of impulses. Most of the people I know that joined the military before 21 did it 100% for the up front money and wish they wouldnt have after the fact. That is just my experience and my opinion though.

OK, my bad about the officer thing. I do know that at 18 you can go into Cabelas as buy a shotgun or hunting rifle. I guess if you are going to split hairs, I never mentioned anything about a CCW permit. I didnt know you HAD to have a CCW permit to be an officer. I figured since they carry their side arm in their holster on their hip that they wouldnt necessarily need a CCW permit. My bad.

Well, I think a CCW is included in the training of becoming a police officer. Off duty police officers can legally carry a pistol with them. But you're right about the shotgun and rifle purchase. At least in Colorado it is that way.

Also, you can purchase any tobacco product at 18. Whether it is cigs, cigars, chew, or anything.

In Utah you have to be 18 to smoke/chew/etc, but 19 to buy. Stupid law, but that is what it is.:doh0715:

I think it should be 18. You are given the responsibilities of an adult at 18, so you should get all the privelidges as well.

I think it should be 18. You are given the responsibilities of an adult at 18, so you should get all the privelidges as well.

Pretty much sums up my opinion of it too.:beer

Since I am 56, I really dont care!

We can all count on you to add something useful!

*ugh*

With all of the deaths caused by teenage drivers already, the last thing we need to do is get 'em all liquored up. And if 18 (high school) is the cut-off, how hard will it be for 14 - 17 year olds to get it? (it's a little harder for a 16 year old to find a 21 year old to buy it for them).

In addition, just about every study shows a greater incidence of alcoholism for people who start drinking earlier.

I guess what I'm saying is that getting drunk is less of a priviledge and more of a curse if you really think about it. It is also a tremendous responsibility.

If your goal is to make it more "even", I would be more likely to raise the voting and selctive service age to 21.

i did 90% of my drinking when i was 18 . but i knew not to drive or ride with someone thats had too much. if you can manage that then i say drink up.:drinkbud

Eh whatever. I'm 19 but I drink... just gotta be smart about it...

I pretty much quit drinking about the time i turned 21. From 16-20 I spent most my weekends drinking. During the summers out of school it would be 3-4 nights a week of shitfacedness. It's so easy to get alchohol underage it's actually kind of sad.

But hindsight is 20/20 and I could have done more productive things with my life during that time. I would say leave it the same.

And I want to hijack and go semi off-topic about something sooo bad, but I will resist.

the last thing we need is a bunch of little homos fresh out of high school/still in high school thinking they can out drink the world and then drive home.
i just dont think the majority of 18 y/0s are mature enough to handle it yet. granted underage drinking is still an issue it def hampers the amount of intake.
plus when you lower the age to that much the younger kids would have more of a chance to be exposed to it as well

not so, i have been able to get any kind of alcohol any day of the week since about the age of 14 or so. Im not 21 but i can still drink whenever I want, It doesn't make a difference to me if its legal or not. I know plenty of kids that drink and drive as it is (not me):whiteflag

not so, i have been able to get any kind of alcohol any day of the week since about the age of 14 or so. Im not 21 but i can still drink whenever I want, It doesn't make a difference to me if its legal or not. I know plenty of kids that drink and drive as it is (not me):whiteflag

o trust me i am no stranger to drinking under age.
i just pointing out that it will certainly make it so much more easier for younger kids.

I had no problems getting beer when I was 16, all you had to do was load up a bum in the back of the truck and presto you could get beer. I don't see how screwing up a 20 yearold adults life with a criminal charge really makes sense. I also don't think most people are that much more mature at 21 than they were at 18 and I honestly can't understand how you can let someone buy a highly addictive product like cigarettes at 18 but beer is a no.:beer:drinkbud

I had no problems getting beer when I was 16, all you had to do was load up a bum in the back of the truck and presto you could get beer. I don't see how screwing up a 20 yearold adults life with a criminal charge really makes sense. I also don't think most people are that much more mature at 21 than they were at 18 and I honestly can't understand how you can let someone buy a highly addictive product like cigarettes at 18 but beer is a no.:beer:drinkbud

cant say ive ever been wasted after smoking a butt:rofl:

After seeing the way kids act at 18 when they drink, I say no. At parties I have had and have been to you can always spot the freshmen because they get shitfaced drunk ASAP and act like assholes, they usually have to be removed from the house. Kids are stupid, I was stupid when I was that age, not as stupid as others but can still admit I was just a dumb kid. I am 21 now, but am much more mature now then when I was 18 or 19, I have a better grasp on what is important and has to be done.
Comparing us to European countries does not cut it either. We are not Europe, the fabric of our society is completely different that theirs. To make it possible for people to drink at younger ages we will have to start holding kids responsible for their actions at 16 or 17, you don't just hit 18, legally become an adult, and mature. These days, most kids are little shit-heads who have mommy and daddy to defend them. About the only way I would be ok with the drinking age being lowered to 18 is if the kid was living on his own, with a job, and had no prior behavioral issues, or was enlisted in the military at one point, which I know on bases they can drink.

I did most of my drinking before 21.

cant say ive ever been wasted after smoking a butt:rofl:

My first cig fawked me up pretty good and 20 years later my dumbass is still killing myself with them.

I say no to both. All the groups mentioned, military, police, firemen, etc. all have some form of training. IMHO, going through that training helps raise the amount of maturity a person tends to display. No training, no vices. So I guess I should have answered Other.

I say lower the drinking age to 18.

Where I am, it's 18 to buy tobacco

Absolutely not. No doubt about it, 18-20 y/olds are not responsible enough to be drinking & driving. I know, i was one of em :toothless My vote is to leave it at 21.

being a 18 year old. i know the age limit isnt stopping us from drinking. for most kids its the thrill of being rebellious, so if you take that thrill away, by letting younger buy, than i can see the numbers going down.

however on the other hand. then 16 year olds will wanna drink so they will have 18 year olds buy. so why not lower it too 16? it doesnt make sense either way.

i work/worked at a liquor store for 3 years. i see what alcohol does to people. i think limitting and monitoring it in the best way is the best way to resolve problems.

i cant see this law changing, after it only changed like what 25 years ago?

I am not opposed to change but it has been 21 for a long time for a reason. A good reason I believe. underage people are going to drink I understand that but they can't drink in bars or restuarants. They do like I did they go to friends houses an drink underage way less dangerous than them going to bars. I served in the military at 18 and I drank and I was for sure no responsible with it I was lucky not to kill someone or myself as I got older I saw the change. It's already 18 for cigarettes here too.

What I find funny is the bill to lower the age is being pushed by college's. If you look at the bill (or hear about it like I did) it is deans and professors pushing it. I have my own opinions on why that is but I will keep them to myself just something to think about.

I think it should stay 21 for drinking. For smoking I don't really care how old anyone has to be. If a 10 year old kid wants to buy some stogies thats cool.

If all teenagers now days are like our 19yr old cashier, I would have to say no. Leave the Drinking age alone. She seems to not have any problem getting hammered drunk 5 nights out of a 6 day work week as it is. I'm so tired of the "I got so drunk and stoned last night" stories.

Godless has something to say when I said I was 56 and did not give a chit, here is my position, this drinking thing, is it worse than cigarettes? I dont know...I have beeen drinking since I was 13, so age limits dont mean much...what means the most, I think, is a concept of these youg'uns that "I have to be real"....what age, doesn't matter, you will find it when you will, what is important, is the reasons you seek it, That is maturity, and it does not have any thing to do with calendar years.....put that it yourpipe and smoke it, it you can buy it

I am coming back because I have thought about this thing, it is our responsibility to teach the youth, and sometimes when they make poor choices, it is our fault

I say lower the drinking age to 18.

Where I am, it's 18 to buy tobacco

lotto tickets, tobacco is 18 everywhere in the USA. :smilie_slap

We never had an issue gettin booze senior year of hs up to sophmore year of college. After that the glamour pretty much wore off. If kids want it, they will find a way-groups thinking they can do otherwise have their heads up their @sses.

overseas you only have to be 18 to be able to drink in the military. Just cant in the US.

Well hell, that little tidbit of info would have come in handy about...... 22 years ago. :toothless

The biggest reason I would oppose lowering the age to 18 would be as stated on page one about it being easier for the underage friends of the kids turning 18 to get alchyhol....alchahaul...... booz.

Lost a couple of very good friends because of underage drinking, one girl was simply along for the ride when her drunk friend behind the wheel rolled the car and crushed her.

lotto tickets, tobacco is 18 everywhere in the USA. :smilie_slap

WRONG:twak

go to Wildwood NJ....its 19 there:twak

i got carded every time. luckily i had my fake since im not 18:thumbup

EDIT: I meant 19. I am 18. i used my brothers for the week. gave it back. no longer have it. I knew buying tobacco products would be a problem so i borrowed it

WRONG:twak

go to Wildwood NJ....its 19 there:twak

i got carded every time. luckily i had my fake since im not 18:thumbup

If you had ANY intelligence what so ever you would go back and delete that.

Tard.

WRONG:twak

go to Wildwood NJ....its 19 there:twak

i got carded every time. luckily i had my fake since im not 18:thumbup

Another quote for good measure, moron :goodfinge


I think 21 is the age where most people can make mature and informative risks instead of impulses. Most of the people I know that joined the military before 21 did it 100% for the up front money and wish they wouldnt have after the fact. That is just my experience and my opinion though.

I joined at 18, and had a full 18mo deployment under my belt by the time I turned 21. I don't regret anything, nor did I join for the money. Making baseless statements doesn't help any arguments of yours. I know many people who have joined the service after the fact just because they wanted to. I know one guy who joined at 39 or so. He had a family at home, a well-off business, and a degree. He decided it was something he always wanted to do so he sold his business and enlisted into military intelligence.

I believe military regardless of where they are, should be able to drink on post, regardless of age. 21 isn't a bad age to start allowing the legal consumption of alcohol, although most don't start at that age. It helps keep it out of the highschool, and right now our education systems aren't in peak condition as it is.

If you want to play devil's advocate, you could argue there should be NO drinking or smoking legal age, and the PARENTS should be responsible for their children, and make sure they are raised in the correct manner to not need to turn to substances such as alcohol or smokes. I know you don't have the cleanest history Jer, so, playing devil's advocate doesn't exactly work if you have any sort of past. Regardless if it is legal, or illegal substances, maturity is what comes into play. I know plenty of individuals that are middle aged that can't handle booze nor know when to stop. They'd be the same at 18, or 81.

i dont have a problem with the way it is now.

There IS alot of growing up from the ages of 18 to 21. Between that time, you graduate high school and either move out and start working or go to college (i know, some dont, but as a generalization)


im turning 22 sunday, and im around all different age groups from seniors in high school to people graduating college. The younger ones... i couldnt even imagine them being able to buy booze. Too young and irresponsible. from the amount of dumbass shit ive seen them do, i dont even want to be around them. Its not "hey yall watch this" dumbass drunk stunts.... just the way they act... its immature to say the least. Ive seen way too many of them be piss ass drunk and have to drive home cause mommy and daddy have a curfew set.


Theres a time there from graduating high school to the age of 21 where you know if you screw up, mommy and daddy aint there for you. Right when you turn 18, it hasnt all set in yet for most.


i dont see anything good out of 18 being the legal drinking age.

Through reading this whole thread, I thought that the 19 to buy tobacco and 18 to use was dumb, but I think a good solution would be 21 to buy alcohol and 18 to consume and posess. That way people who are 18-20 could drink, but it would still limit the availability to people that are under 18.

Debate all you want....there is nothing "magic" about reaching 21 and making mature decisions - that comes from training and parental education.

Drinking in moderation is fine. Drinking and driving drunk is wrong. Adults 31, 41, 51 make stupid choices about it, how can we expect more from 18-21 year olds.

There are more mature 30 year olds than mature 18 year olds, thats the point. Nobody is saying there is something magic about 21, nobody is saying that the age limit now is perfect, there will be issues with it. The point is that 18 year olds on average are immature and unable to handle buying alcohol and consuming it at 18...so having the age at 21, though not perfect, is much better than at 18. Because kids are stupid. Now I know many on this board are not, many of you are very responsible and I can see that in most posts. But if you look at others your age posting some of the shit they do on here SOBER, well, you'd probably want most of your age group liquidated.

But if you look at others your age posting some of the shit they do on here SOBER, well, you'd probably want most of your age group liquidated.

I agree with you here... The only thing that I dont like about it is that you can be FORCED to fight and possibly die for your country, but you cant drink. There is no way to make the law perfect, just make it acceptable for the majority I think.

Oh, and I vote for lower the DRINKING age to 18, but keep the buying age at 21 for previously stated reasons.

Keep at 21. I agree with some who say that there is a lot of growing up that has to happen at that time. I know I did. And still am.

The laws should stay the same, but with the addition of the legalization of marijuana. For those of you that have both "driven" under the influence of both alcohol and marijuana, which would you say was safer? I'd say being "high from marijuana" is MUCH safer than driving while tired or under the influence of alcohol. I'm not advising anyone to drive while intoxicated, but marijuana effects your motor skills and reaction times noticeably less.

This is my shiny dakota before marijuana.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/199144/fullsize/s4300001.jpg

this is my shiny dakota after an 18 year old who said "I've smoked pot a thousand times and drove and never had this happen" as she was laying in the ICU after veering left of center and colliding head on with my father in my dakota and having the front tire from my dakota come through the windshield and fracture her skull, that and nearly killing my father.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/296418/fullsize/s4300017.jpg

I could care less what your vice is, stay off the road if your under the influence of anything.

Personally i think you should have a license to drink.

off topic but, Bronco Rob, where in the **** have you been for 2 months?! nice to see you around again. hope all is well!

on topic: i say keep it where it's at. i know i have matured a LOT since i was 18. a lot of growing up happens in those 3 years. i've seen some of the people i went to high school with, they're completely different people now.

im 17 and would love to have the drinking age to 18 (only 2 more years til im legal!). BUT i know tons of immature kids that would take way too much advantage of this and do stupid stuff. so i think they should keep it at 21, and higher joining military, police, etc. to 21 also. but that would pose a problem foer them, they woudnt get anyone to join ahaha. so i dont really care what happens. im fine with it at 21. i dont drink often anyways

I am not opposed to change but it has been 21 for a long time for a reason. A good reason I believe. underage people are going to drink I understand that but they can't drink in bars or restuarants. They do like I did they go to friends houses an drink underage way less dangerous than them going to bars.

:smilie_slap

Dude, if you knew anything about the difference between drinking at bars and drinking in a private setting, with alot of friends around, you know that statement is completely false and stupid.

I am a bartender. You have to go threw "Tips" training before you can legally bartend. The most important thing they teach you is to limit your customers, because you are in fact reliable for them and how much they drink. If they go out and get in an accident after drinking at your bar, responsibility can come back on YOU. Ridiculous, to a certain extent...but it is your bar, you need to keep it under control and make sure people aren't having too much to drink.

So, with that being said, it is much more dangerous in my opinion to have people drinking at a house party or something rather than at the bar. Any good bartender will cut you off after you showing signs of drunkeness. Not to mention the prices of drinks at most bars are outrageous, and will keep you from buying too many drinks. Also, a good bartender will watch every person, listen to conversations, and acknowledge if there is a possibility of them drinking and driving. From there, the bartender can call the police or take action.

At a private setting, you are pressured to drink alot more. Drinks are more readily available to you, and for a cheaper price (sometimes free). You have no one watching how much you drink, and no one to cut you off. No one to control whether you drink and drive, unless of course you have some good friends.

The only argument I have heard that would possibly change my mind about cutting the age to 18, is the fact that 18 year olds would be buying for younger teens.

But, I still stick to my opinion on cutting it back to 18.

A quote from some research: "Data from several national surveys indicate that about four in five college students drink and that about half of college student drinkers engage in heavy episodic consumption."

There ya go, over 80 percent. It doesn't matter the age...people are going to drink regardless.

What definition of responsibility are we referring too here anyway? There are so many people out there, regardless of age, who don't use alcohol responsibly. Whether it be drunk driving, or binge drinking. We talk about how irresponsible these Freshmen are at parties, yet we are there, binge drinking to witness it. Who cares if they act loud and obnoxious after having six beers...what difference does it make if they feel like yelling or dancing or acting like an idiot. Maybe they are responsible enough to understand that those six beers are affecting them. While at the same time, the person of age thinks the drinks aren't affecting them, and go out and drive.

Alot of it has to do with the way you were raised and parented, like j.r. said. I have friends who were welcome to drink when they were in high school. Their parents simply let them grab a beer whenever they wanted too, as long as they stayed at home. They were not sheltered from it, and knew its consequences. I also have friends who never grew up with it...they never tried it, never heard anything about it, and were more then curious when they finally had the chance to do it. Alot of it is rebellion and the thrill of doing what is illegal.

see, this is sortof a difficult topic, but i have to say that although i am 19 and would benefit from the age being dropped, there are a few problems with it. i can get alcohol very easily- i go to college. i have plenty of sources. this being said, when i get the alcohol, i make sure that me and my friends aren't going anywhere for the night, because i feel responsible for them. i would like to be able to walk in to a liquor store and grab what i want without dilly dallying with a middle man, but at the same time, i think that a lot of people my age don't know not to drive drunk! i do NOT understand it! maybe there should be some sort of special courses that help with hammering this into people's heads! also, you have to realize what they're talking about in that article. binge drinking is really bad! instead of having a few at their destination, underage drinkers get fukked up at their place and then go where they wanna go. maybe 19 would be a more appropriate age for everything... or maybe even 20. the fact of the matter is that there are stupid 18 year olds and there are smart 18 year olds, and there's stupid 21 and overs and smart 21 and overs.

i would love for it to be 18 or older for my sake, but i think there's a lot of dipsh*Ts out there who would ruin it for the rest of us.
smoking sucks. i've had a problem with smoking since i was 17, and there has never been any good to come of it. i don't think that anything with smoking will change, but i think that it should be the same age as the drinking and the enlisting- the age at which one becomes a legal adult.

[QUOTE=Lucafu1;1761114]i you can buy a hand gun from a private party at 18.

Just to clarify that this is incorrect information. In the US, it is a federal law that requires someone to be 21 to posses or purchase a handgun.

Back to the question at hand; I am not really in favor of teen agers drinking. I say this from experience and live with the consequences as I am a paraplegic that has been in a wheelchair for 28 years since I was 18. Yes it was a car accident that occurred after drinking.

I am also not in favor of age discrimination for some facets of adulthood and not with others. Now that I have aged a little I feel that the legal age for adulthood should be 21. This would include drinking, voting, jury duty, the ability to enter into a binding contract... everything. A lot of maturity occurs between 18 and 21, everyone but the 18YO can see this pretty clearly.

I am a bartender. You have to go threw "Tips" training before you can legally bartend. The most important thing they teach you is to limit your customers, because you are in fact reliable for them and how much they drink. If they go out and get in an accident after drinking at your bar, responsibility can come back on YOU. Ridiculous, to a certain extent...but it is your bar, you need to keep it under control and make sure people aren't having too much to drink.


Tips training isn't required in every state. I've been in dozens of bars drunk out of my skull and should of been cut off, yet still walked out and drove, i still see it even to this day and i don't drink.

I am willing to bet that a good percentage of bartenders could care less about the majority of their clientele outside of their regulars, they're more concerned with what you're tipping them.

The negligent bartender/bar case is also extremely hard to prove in court. The person accusing the bar of that has to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt that the bar was negligent and should of stopped serving them, an action in which the person drinking should of been reasonable enough to realize that they should of stopped drinking in the first place.

Either way, i don't think you're a true adult until you go through your first divorce anyway.

I say this from experience and live with the consequences as I am a paraplegic that has been in a wheelchair for 28 years since I was 18. Yes it was a car accident that occurred after drinking.

This statement in itself makes me how lucky i am that i never killed anyone or ended up in a wheelchair when i was younger. With age, i look back now and realize what an effed up dipshit i was. I am truly sorry for what you have to go through, i can't imagine that being easy.

Like some have said, age doesn't matter too much. There are plenty of old morons and plenty of young ones. There will always be people that are absolutely STUPID.

I personally cannot see why anyone would waste their health/time/money with drinking or smoking. In my town, there are so MANY problems with people driving under the influence. The police only seem to make the problem worse. I know of many times when they've let drunk or high people DRIVE home. I for one would be PISSED if one of these driver's hit me, as I'm sure anyone else would be. It seems as if all alcohol causes is problems.

An alcohol license seems like it could be a good idea. I don't know how you'd go about obtaining one though. Driving under the influence is a big problem though that needs to be addressed.

I say keep the age at 21. A LOT more of the younger people will have much easier access to it. We've seen this with cigarettes.

I say leave it alone. Just maybe you'll prevent this from happening. Who knows how many times.
http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2007/burned-alive-p1.php

For those who don't have time to watch the movie, here's the cliff notes:
Before
http://health.discovery.com/centers/plasticsurgery/facetransplant/gallery/face9_v.jpg
After:
http://www20.brinkster.com/godfathersatx/jackie%20after.jpg

im 17 and would love to have the drinking age to 18 (only 2 more years til im legal!). BUT i know tons of immature kids that would take way too much advantage of this and do stupid stuff. so i think they should keep it at 21, and higher joining military, police, etc. to 21 also. but that would pose a problem foer them, they woudnt get anyone to join ahaha. so i dont really care what happens. im fine with it at 21. i dont drink often anyways

First you need to be able to do simple math before you can drink. Because
18-17=1 not 2

I could care less what your vice is, stay off the road if your under the influence of anything.

Personally i think you should have a license to drink.

I agree whole heartedly and another good point

I did most of my drinking before 21.

The reason why it should be lowered

Absolutely not. No doubt about it, 18-20 y/olds are not responsible enough to be drinking & driving. I know, i was one of em :toothless My vote is to leave it at 21.

Ummmm no one is responsible enough to drink or do anything else and drive.

The reason why it should be lowered

that's an awful shitty reason. A lot of people drink underage and can't follow simple laws, so we should make it legal?

That argument would also make the argument that the following things should be legal:

Rape
Murder
Theft
Drunk Driving
Speeding
Prostitution
Pretty much any hate crime
Illegal border crossings

the list goes on......

Making something legal, because a bunch of people who aren't supposed to be doing it, are, is a very bad argument.

Ted Strickland (Ohio's Governor) is behind it because he's trying to do anything to increase business in Ohio, opening that age up by three years would greatly increase bar revenue, since bars are about the only thing left in Ohio. That and since our gambling legislation actually has a chance of passing this year, it would open up Casinos and 18 year olds spending money in casinos too.

That and if you open up the age group, more people are going to break laws, which increases revenues for local court systems. There will be more DUI's, public intoxication and other alcohol related misdemeanors.

that's an awful shitty reason. A lot of people drink underage and can't follow simple laws, so we should make it legal?

That argument would also make the argument that the following things should be legal:

Rape
Murder
Theft
Drunk Driving
Speeding
Prostitution
Pretty much any hate crime
Illegal border crossings

the list goes on......

Making something legal, because a bunch of people who aren't supposed to be doing it, are, is a very bad argument.

Ted Strickland (Ohio's Governor) is behind it because he's trying to do anything to increase business in Ohio, opening that age up by three years would greatly increase bar revenue, since bars are about the only thing left in Ohio. That and since our gambling legislation actually has a chance of passing this year, it would open up Casinos and 18 year olds spending money in casinos too.

That and if you open up the age group, more people are going to break laws, which increases revenues for local court systems. There will be more DUI's, public intoxication and other alcohol related misdemeanors.

It falls into the catagory that most people do illegal things to see if they can get away with it. It may be a shitty reason but think for a minute when you were under 21 years old you drank right? When you turned 21 you still drank but not as much right? And I did not say a damn thing about the other crap you listed. If you would have read my whole post instead of skimming I even said a licence would be a good idea so people under 21 could drink. I even went and opposed drinking and driving at it is not safe or smart at any age. And you are wrong on misdemeanors as a DUI is now a class 4 felony in most states and kill someone falls under one of 2 catagories. First vehicular homocide or second is reckless homocide. So I am sorry that you feel that way and know that I am entitled to my opinion. I was in the army and yes i did drink as a minor and no I did not drink while drunk EVER.

It falls into the catagory that most people do illegal things to see if they can get away with it. It may be a shitty reason but think for a minute when you were under 21 years old you drank right? When you turned 21 you still drank but not as much right?

I was also under 21 the first time i did coke, i was under 21 the first time i dropped acid, i was under 21 the first time i did mushrooms.

So on the basis of your argument, these things should be legal, because people under 21 do them? Kind of a lame argument.

If anything, i wasn't making the best decisions before i was 21. Kind of makes me hesitant about saying "Yea! drop it to 18!"

And I did not say a damn thing about the other crap you listed.

No you didn't. But the basis of your argument is that many people under 21 are drinking illegally, therefor the law should change. If that is how it worked, anything illegal, that a lot of people do, should be made legal, the argument is there.

Here, i'll make it easy for you to understand.

A lot of people drink underage illegally, we should make it legal to alleviate the problem. A lot of people take things illegally, we should make theft legal to alleviate the problem.

If you would have read my whole post instead of skimming I even said a license[sic] would be a good idea so people under 21 could drink.

Actually, it's a pretty shitty idea. I do however think it should be a lot more regulated and enforced than what it is now.

I even went and opposed drinking and driving at it is not safe or smart at any age.

Yea. Your point being?

And you are wrong on misdemeanors as a DUI is now a class 4 felony in most states and kill someone falls under one of 2 categories[sic].

That is how it works in your state not in mine. In Ohio your first DUI is still a misdemeanor. (http://www.jdrlaw.com/ohioduiattorney/ohio-dui-penalties.html) Please feel free to remember that each state still has independence from federal regulations and are not all the same.

First vehicular homocide or second is reckless homicide[sic].

WTF is homocide? Is that some kind of gay hate crime? i corrected the second one, because they are still manslaughter charges in ohio, which indicates that murder wasn't the first priority of the crime, it was a result of the crime and unintentional.

So I am sorry that you feel that way and know that I am entitled to my opinion. I was in the army and yes i did drink as a minor and no I did not drink while drunk EVER.

A. What does being army have to do with anything in this conversation?

B. How did you not drink while drunk?

C. I never said what age it should be, at this point i am on the fence about the subject, but if you are an example of what being drink while drunk under the age of 21 is, i strongly urge that we push education over lowering the drinking age.

I dont think people are responsible enough to drink at 21 much less 18. I drank when i was 18 but was it right? well yeah cause i was stationed in england. Was i responsible about it hell no. i got stumblin drunk damn near every night. I think it should stay the same or go up. I do believe that in the military you should be able to drink at 18, cause well, if you are expected to die for you country you should be able to have a beer. yes that is a bit hypocritical (dont know if that is spelled right) but so be it. no one but the military is expected to die for there country.

Also let me be my own devils advocate and say that I wouldnt want my kids to drink or smoke before 21 (Or ever smoke period) and I certainly wouldnt want them joining the military at 18 either.

I think 21 is the age where most people can make mature and informative risks instead of impulses. Most of the people I know that joined the military before 21 did it 100% for the up front money and wish they wouldnt have after the fact. That is just my experience and my opinion though.

I joined at 17. But I had my mind up when I was 5. But I have planned for a military career my whole life.


as for the cop with the ccw thing, i was just saying what the requirements for my local Huntsville, AL city police is. I know this because I applied last year but my son was born at the same time my testing was suppose to be. I am applying this go around.

"...consider lowering the drinking age from 21 to 18, saying current laws actually encourage dangerous binge drinking on campus."

I have to disagree with this, where I am from the legal age for drinking is 18 and I did a lot of binge drinking in college, much of it financed by the university.:thumbup

lotto tickets, tobacco is 18 everywhere in the USA. :smilie_slap

2 states it is 19 to buy tobacco. Here in Alabama, and Utah as Godless said. I thought it was Alaska for some reason.

When I was 18 I had to go to TN to buy them, get them at a place that sold illegally, or get someone 19 to get them. Luckily for me it was a 20 minute drive to the TN line, cause the gas station i bought them at got busted like 4 times and prices were way too hight after all the fines. now they are out of business.

I am a firefighter. If you worked with me for a month or so there is no way you would want the drinking age to be lowered.

Teenagers are not the greatest drivers to begin with then you add alcohol NOT A GOOD COMBINATION.

The legal age is 21 most alcohol related teen deaths are 18-19 years old.
If you lower the age to 18 then most would then be 16-17 years old.
All you are doing is making the 16 year olds think that if an 18 year old can do why cant I.

I understand that an 18 can join the military. HE HAS ALOT OF TRAINING BEFORE HE CAN ACTUALLY FIGHT FOR OUR COUNTRY.

Same thing with the police and fire dept. I had to go through 6 months of training befor i could go to a station and work, and the i was on probation for a year.

Maybe there should be a " Boot Camp " or 6 months of training and a year of probation for teens that want to drink.

People make it sound like you can just be a Police, Firefighter, or be in the Military. Well you can but there is alot of training and classes before you can any of them.

it was 18 when i turned 18. didnt really make a diff to me. I was in Germany this spring and they dont have an age, however the school kids were much more responsible compared to kids here. Walking home from school they would stop in bar for a beer and smoke, then grab there backpacks and head home, they looked to be 15 or so. In the clubs and bars a group of girls walked around the crowd with a breathalizer. if you were near the limit, you were cut off and told to leave. in summary, anyone could drink, you could not be drunk. It was an huge embarrasment thing to be drunk, so it rarley happened.

I joined at 18, and had a full 18mo deployment under my belt by the time I turned 21. I don't regret anything, nor did I join for the money. Making baseless statements doesn't help any arguments of yours.
First off, good for you. If that was whaat you wanted to do and you did it, then good for you. I mean that.

Now to be blunt:

I said in my experience. Would it have been better to lie to you to make you feel better? Oh and I said it was my opinion too. If you dont like it then piss off soldier boy. I am glad you want to play in the sand and grow up to tell your grand-kids all your cool war stories, that is your thing and if it makes you happy then whatever. I chose to go to college and get a civilian job, does that make me less of a person? Oh and I dont care about your cute stories about people who gave up their 2 trillion dollar a year job to go play in the sand... for every one of your stories I could make up an even cuter story about how an 18 year old kid just wanted to go to college but came from a single parent home who couldnt afford the tuition. He joined the army to get funded but died in war before he ever had a chance to step foot in a classroom. So please dont even sell me your shit, because I am not buying it.


If you want to play devil's advocate, you could argue there should be NO drinking or smoking legal age, and the PARENTS should be responsible for their children, and make sure they are raised in the correct manner to not need to turn to substances such as alcohol or smokes.

DUH! This goes without saying. Ask any parent if they WANT their kids to smoke/drink, or if they really have any control over what they do when they are 18, or if they were ever disappointed by one of their kids "making a bad decision." Parents can do a damn fine job at raising their kids and in the end the kids may do the exact opposite.



I know you don't have the cleanest history Jer, so, playing devil's advocate doesn't exactly work if you have any sort of past.

Care to elaborate here a little? Sure I have made mistakes at a young age, but so has anyone and everyone else. I really dont get what you mean here?

I am a (High Honors) college graduate (Which I paid for out of my own pocket, not Uncle Sams), make great money, have a great portfolio, drive new cars, have new toys, clean driving record, clean criminal record, my wife is starting medical school next week (Which we are paying for not Uncle Sam), I donate to charity, I help other people more so then I receive help, I am an excellent provider to my family, I dont use any drugs, I drink very little, and in the last 10 years if I made a goal to better myself, I achieved it. For example: Graduating college, getting out of credit card debt, and losing weight (140 pounds to date in 11 months, 5 days exactly and all without drugs, or surgery.)

I am not trying to toot my horn here, but that is a pretty good list for people to have before they die, much less at 30 years old. If you are going to call me out you better bring something son. If not go back to cleaning your foot locker.

Also Joe, f I did have a "history" as you put it, it wouldnt negate me from having an opinion!

Oh and yes I smoked (quit 3 years ago) and drank before I was 18 AND I have done drugs...... and I never killed anyone, or crashed my car, or robbed an old lady to pay for my habits. :histerica

Oh and yes I smoked (quit 3 years ago) and drank before I was 18 AND I have done drugs...... and I never killed anyone, or crashed my car, or robbed an old lady to pay for my habits. :histerica

LIAR!!!!!! you hurt me..:goodfinge



i kid, i kid :brownbag


all I do know, is I drove 1/2 a mile to my house one time when I was a bit inebriated...that was not fun. I swear it took me half an hour to go that 1/2 mile.

Lowering the age to buy beer/booze to 18 is stupid, just because they feel like they can handle it doesn't mean they know how. 18 year olds don't realize that there is a lot to learn in those three years.

When I turned 18 I started college, I drank, a lot. Joined a fraternity, drank more. It was not hard to get liquor at all.

19 came around; Canada was a 15minute drive and a 5 minute crawl through customs. Over the border I went and all the booze, Cuban cigars, and drunken easy women I could want. Off Topic:: By the way, stopping in the middle of an international tunnel to hit on the chicks in the car behind you at 330am does not go over well with border security. I did find out that that Canadian BS has AR15s while US just has M5s

Back on topic:

By the time I turned 21 I had already been doing the bar and drinking thing for 5 years that I found that it wasn't what it use to. I still go out and party and go to the bar, but it doesn't phase me, because I've been doing it for so long.

This is just my personal experience though. Leave it where its at, its been at 21 for 32ish years, I think its fine.

LIAR!!!!!! you hurt me..:goodfinge



i kid, i kid :brownbag


all I do know, is I drove 1/2 a mile to my house one time when I was a bit inebriated...that was not fun. I swear it took me half an hour to go that 1/2 mile.

Probably because you were going 5 mph and piss scared! :histerica

I wont lie, I did drive drunk once, and a little buzzed a few times and I was the same way. I drove slow, nervous, and probably safer than I have ever driven in my sober life. LOL. I obviously dont condone driving drunk , but it was an odd situation and it was get out of there now, or risk being shot/robbed. I should have pulled over in a safe place, but I just kept going home because I was scared and wanting to be by my security blankey.:histerica


EDIT: SSgtTEX, I am glad some people can take a difference of opinion about the military and not get butt hurt about it. I am glad we have people who WANT to do this. It isnt for me for many reasons, and I would never spit in the face of a s soldier, I just hate the "High and mighty" ones who think they are better than everyone else because they work for Uncle Sam.

I think the drinking age for hot chicks should be lowered to match the age of consent and the voting age raised to 25. :toothless

I think the drinking age for hot chicks should be lowered to match the age of consent and the voting age raised to 25. :toothless

Man I am voting for you!:rockon

Through reading this whole thread, I thought that the 19 to buy tobacco and 18 to use was dumb, but I think a good solution would be 21 to buy alcohol and 18 to consume and posess. That way people who are 18-20 could drink, but it would still limit the availability to people that are under 18.

that does make sense, here in alabama for tobacco it is 18 to use and posess and 19 to buy. alabama realizes that it is the only state in the south that has a
"19 to buy" tobacco law and that people will come from other states with tobacco and if they are 18 then they can possess.

2 states it is 19 to buy tobacco. Here in Alabama, and Utah as Godless said. I thought it was Alaska for some reason.


It is 19 in Alaska.
17 to join the military as you pointed out, not so sure why everybody thinks it is 18.

Oh and Uncle Sams $$ spends just fine for my education. :thumbup

Oh and Uncle Sams $$ spends just fine for my education. :thumbup

You may not have read it, but my comment on "Not Uncle Sam" is referring to an older thread I made about how a few of the guys I started school with joined the military to get Uncle Sam to pay for their tuition. None of them have finished because they are playing in the sand. So it wasnt an insult at the G.I. bill, more of a reference to an older post about that, as well as my frustrations about how getting money for school is easier if you are an ex-con or minority as well. Dont know if you read that, but I just wanted to clear that up so no one thinks I am against the G.I. bill. Fundamentally I am not, but it sucks that these guys chose to sign up during a time of war to get help for tuition from their government, and in the end they arent really going to school and by the time they get back they may as well start over because it isnt like you use trig or algebra in the desert I am sure your C.O. doesnt make you source your thesis in your bibliography either. :toothless

Now this was the "From my experience" reference I was referring to before I got shit on by Bobbie

They signed up for the money, not the war, but they should have known better. All three guys were younger than 21 when they signed the dotted line, and lastly that is in reference to my opinion on being 21 before you sign up for the military.

First off, good for you. If that was whaat you wanted to do and you did it, then good for you. I mean that.

Now to be blunt:

I said in my experience. Would it have been better to lie to you to make you feel better? Oh and I said it was my opinion too. If you dont like it then piss off soldier boy. I am glad you want to play in the sand and grow up to tell your grand-kids all your cool war stories, that is your thing and if it makes you happy then whatever. I chose to go to college and get a civilian job, does that make me less of a person? Oh and I dont care about your cute stories about people who gave up their 2 trillion dollar a year job to go play in the sand... for every one of your stories I could make up an even cuter story about how an 18 year old kid just wanted to go to college but came from a single parent home who couldnt afford the tuition. He joined the army to get funded but died in war before he ever had a chance to step foot in a classroom. So please dont even sell me your shit, because I am not buying it.



That's fine if you want to "make up" a cute story, mine are just factual. To label an entire age group as being only in it for "the money" to be serving their country in a time of war (**** the money, just FYI), is ignorant. Some people do it for the money, some do it for acceptance of a parent, some do it for a career change, some do it for war stories. I did it for none of these reasons, and I didn't necessarily want to go play in the sand box. It happened, and I did it without a complaint, as it is what I committed to when I swore in. I am now starting my 2nd semester in college with GI Bill/tuition assistance, but also private scholarships. I don't receive any federal grant money or any other "assistance" other than what I have earned, IE: GI Bill/TA and scholarships.

I didn't join to tell war stories, and any person who has REALLY served their country in war won't tell you war stories, they'll tell you about losing a fellow soldier, airman, or marine. The people who tell war stories are ones who are trying to prove something, and would talk shit regardless if they served or not.



DUH! This goes without saying. Ask any parent if they WANT their kids to smoke/drink, or if they really have any control over what they do when they are 18, or if they were ever disappointed by one of their kids "making a bad decision." Parents can do a damn fine job at raising their kids and in the end the kids may do the exact opposite.


Very true, but parents have an incredibly huge impact on a child's life. Society does, as well. This society impact, is where you try to get across to young impressionable minds that it isn't acceptable to be binge drinking, using illegal drugs, and other things. If this wasn't passed on to you, I am sorry. Everyone has a skeleton in the closet, but most don't throw stones if they have them.


Care to elaborate here a little? Sure I have made mistakes at a young age, but so has anyone and everyone else. I really dont get what you mean here?

I am a (High Honors) college graduate (Which I paid for out of my own pocket, not Uncle Sams), make great money, have a great portfolio, drive new cars, have new toys, clean driving record, clean criminal record, my wife is starting medical school next week (Which we are paying for not Uncle Sam), I donate to charity, I help other people more so then I receive help, I am an excellent provider to my family, I dont use any drugs, I drink very little, and in the last 10 years if I made a goal to better myself, I achieved it. For example: Graduating college, getting out of credit card debt, and losing weight (140 pounds to date in 11 months, 5 days exactly and all without drugs, or surgery.)

I am not trying to toot my horn here, but that is a pretty good list for people to have before they die, much less at 30 years old. If you are going to call me out you better bring something son. If not go back to cleaning your foot locker.

Also Joe, f I did have a "history" as you put it, it wouldnt negate me from having an opinion!

Oh and yes I smoked (quit 3 years ago) and drank before I was 18 AND I have done drugs...... and I never killed anyone, or crashed my car, or robbed an old lady to pay for my habits. :histerica

First off, I am not your "son". Secondly, you are lucky you have not hurt anyone seriously in your life with your decisions that you seem to have pushed back. Have anytime in your life you have borrowed money, maybe even from FSB members, and never paid it back due to drug use or any other reason?

How were those illegal drugs funneled into the country? What terrorist ran company produced the heroin, cocaine, marijuana, etc? People bitch about supporting someone like Walmart. People should be more worried about the "innocent" drug use. Just because it never DIRECTLY affected someone you care about personally, doesn't mean it doesn't have an impact. My tax dollars went to stop someone from trafficking your drugs. I'd rather pay for an EX-con to get an education and be a productive member of society, rather than pay for my country to fight a war on drugs and terror that is funded by drug users.

I don't need to "toot" my own horn as I know what I have accomplished, and what I do on a daily basis. If you feel you need to "buck up" to someone my age, and try to impress me, that says something about yourself, not me. That's great that you've "paved your own way", but not everyone does, nor needs to. I've made the best of every situation I've encountered, from being deployed, having a fractured vertebra, etc, etc. Shit happens, life sucks, get over it. Don't piss and moan about others getting something they EARNED. Benefits are great, and every job has it.

Just remember, freedom isn't free, and freedom is speech is one of those freedoms that you have been awarded by being born in this country. You didn't EARN that right, it was GIVEN to you. This has come at the cost of countless of service members' lives. Regardless of their reasonings to join, they have still served their country, and most very honorably. All deaths are unfortunate, but if someone signs up for the sole reason of college money, then they are blindsided by a $ sign. They knew the risks, and what was expected of them. My unit was very lucky to come home with our entire Battalion alive. Some were wounded, most were OK. Our sister battalions weren't all so lucky. This is part of the risk of being in the Military, and comes with the turf.

This should make you guys happy, Uncle Sam pays a hefty part of my college edumecation and i never served. He also pays me to have a kid.

I win!

This should make you guys happy, Uncle Sam pays a hefty part of my college edumecation and i never served. He also pays me to have a kid.

I win!

:histerica

Secondly, you are lucky you have not hurt anyone seriously in your life with your decisions that you seem to have pushed back. Have anytime in your life you have borrowed money, maybe even from FSB members, and never paid it back due to drug use or any other reason?

You lost me here. Are you under the impression I borrowed money from someone here and didnt pay them back because I was on drugs?

First off: I have never borrowed money from anyone except the bank, and certainly not from anyone here on FSB.
I have never had a drug problem, and if and when I was doing drugs I never shorted anyone anything especially money. I wont say I have never done drugs, because I have, and I am not proud of it, but it didnt hurt anyone except me when I was doing them. Even so, that was YEARS ago.

If that isnt what you are trying to say, please rephrase it because I really dont want you creating fictitious stories about me. I wouldnt ever do that to you no matter what our differences are.

Next: You cant believe I havent hurt anyone because of my decision I have pushed back?

WTF are you smoking? Again, I dont know what you mean. Please elaborate.



We can agree to disagree. I havent personally known anyone who signed up to the military for any other reason other than money. However I can count on 1 hand who I know that has signed up. So I am not saying anything by way of huge numbers, I just dont know a lot of military people if you understand what I am saying. This is my own experience and your experience is more than likely way different. Move on.


Oh and Rob, pay for my skoolz pleez?:goodfinge:histerica

I wont say I have never done drugs, because I have, and I am not proud of it, but it didnt hurt anyone except me when I was doing them. Even so, that was YEARS ago.

I'll argue that one. I guarantee that you at least disappointed or emotionally hurt someone when you were using. My parents were pretty hurt and feel like they failed as parents when they found out about my drug usage. It was years after i had quit, but it still didn't make them feel real good about themselves.

Oh and Rob, pay for my skoolz pleez?:goodfinge:histerica

Hells no! You guys are also busy paying on my small business grants, keep paying taxes i needz yer moniez!

the way i look at it, if we can spend 10 million dollars a day in Iraq to accomplish nothing, why not have the Feds and the State throw a couple greenbacks my way?

I'll argue that one. I guarantee that you at least disappointed or emotionally hurt someone when you were using. My parents were pretty hurt and feel like they failed as parents when they found out about my drug usage. It was years after i had quit, but it still didn't make them feel real good about themselves.

99% of the time I would totally agree with you on this one. For my case keep in mind I dont have parents, or in laws, and I didnt have a LOT of close friends at the time. My drug use was coke, and I did it "in the closet" if you know what I mean. This was before i was married, and I was working a shit job. The only real family I have is my brother and he was living away from me during this time. I used alone, and with other so called friends who used as well. It was a phase I went through and I am glad its long gone. So that is the reason I would say it didnt hurt anyone else persay. I have since told my wife and brother, and they were both shocked and probably disappointed, but it was short lived considering that I do well in most other aspects of life and I am a caring and loving person. I know that sounded a little gay, but its true.

99% of the time I would totally agree with you on this one. For my case keep in mind I dont have parents, or in laws, and I didnt have a LOT of close friends at the time. My drug use was coke, and I did it "in the closet" if you know what I mean. This was before i was married, and I was working a shit job. The only real family I have is my brother and he was living away from me during this time. I used alone, and with other so called friends who used as well. It was a phase I went through and I am glad its long gone. So that is the reason I would say it didnt hurt anyone else persay. I have since told my wife and brother, and they were both shocked and probably disappointed, but it was short lived considering that I do well in most other aspects of life and I am a caring and loving person. I know that sounded a little gay, but its true.

So they were hurt.

Not a really big hurt since they weren't there at the time, but it still hurt them a little bit.

Part of my sobriety requirements were finding people i screwed over when i was high and apologizing to them. I had a pretty damn long list, and it really opened my eyes to what i had done. At the time it didn't seem like i was hurting anyone but myself, but in reality i was hurting quite a few of people, pretty much anyone that gave a rat's ass about me.

I still haven't found everyone, and not everyone forgave me.

Well for what its worth I forgive you. In my "web eyes" you do more good than bad so you are on my list of good people bud. :thumbup Plus you have ferrets so you get extra credit there.:rockon

I agree with firefighter786 and IF it was up to me, keep it age 21.

I live in a college town for over 30 years now everyday is a living example as to WHY age 21 is much needed and really almost not enough.

The ability to make an adult decision even from the age of 18 thru age 21 is dramatic. 3 years of life experience makes a huge difference. Why push the envelope by lowering the age to 18?

There seems to be really is no benefit for parent or child in pushing the age limit even lower... well maybe for the alcohol companies to make more sales.

I would nto be suprised if there were more accidents, DUI's and fatalities when you add alcohol to an already hormone-driven teenagers life.

Regardless, it all comes down to self-government. If we do our jobs well with our kids, then it won't matter how low the age is legally made. Just my 2 bits. :popc1:

I say leave it at 19 years of age for alcohol purchases and leave the tobacco purchase age at 18...or is it 19, regardless, I think it's fine just the way it is...Oh wait, I'm from Canada, and you guys are from the states:duh:cry...and oh yeah, if you live in Alberta it is 18 to buy alcohol. :goodfinge:histerica:histerica:histerica:beer:beer hickup!

No. Do not lower it. Raise it. Why not do something different. Why is it always a pandering issue? I want to see it at 25.

Hell most drinkers at 21 are just as clueless as they are at 18.

If your old enough to die at 18. Thats not a wise argument . Your old enough to drive and die at 16.

We need cell phones and cars and booze and condoms, and a .357. Hand them all out at 16. Let the schools handle that one and drop the ball as well.


I didn't enjoy a beer until I was 24-25. Until then I just drank to drink, and get drunk. I started learning about flavors and beer and different tastes and how it interacts with different foods.

I now know the true reason for beer is bratwurst. And the true reason for bratwurst, is mustard and beer.

No. Do not lower it. Raise it. Why not do something different. Why is it always a pandering issue? I want to see it at 25.

Hell most drinkers at 21 are just as clueless as they are at 18.

If your old enough to die at 18. Thats not a wise argument . Your old enough to drive and die at 16.

We need cell phones and cars and booze and condoms, and a .357. Hand them all out at 16. Let the schools handle that one and drop the ball as well.


I didn't enjoy a beer until I was 24-25. Until then I just drank to drink, and get drunk. I started learning about flavors and beer and different tastes and how it interacts with different foods.

I now know the true reason for beer is bratwurst. And the true reason for bratwurst, is mustard and beer.

...pinch your nostrils, gently and delibrately lower the bottle of industrial strength glue and back away to a well ventalated area.:histerica:drinkbud

I say just keep it how it is. Don't change anything, there are still going to be kids under 21 drinking, and kids smoking under the age of 18. All it will do if it was to be lowered is absolutly nothing. Probably just more drunk driving accidents.

off the subject:
Throw gambling on the table and see if you get different results. I think it's kind of stupid to be 21 in order to gamble, it can be fun and no body is getting hurt when you do it.