Bush Stacks up how? [Archive]

ValkariaKid

02-19-2004, 05:22 AM

"Behind him 100%" ????
You can't be serious.

George W. Bush Resume

Past work experience:

-Ran for congress and lost.

-Bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas, company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.

-Bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using tax-payer money. Biggest move: Traded Sammy Sosa to the Chicago White Sox.

-With fathers help (and his name) was elected Governor of Texas.

-Accomplishments: Changed pollution laws for power and oil companies and made Texas the most polluted state in the Union. Replaced Los Angeles with Houston as the most smog ridden city in America. Cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas government to the tune of billions in borrowed money. Set record for most executions by any Governor in American history.

-Became president after losing the popular vote by over 500,000 votes, with the help of my fathers appointments to the Supreme Court.

Accomplishments as president:

-Attacked and took over two countries.

-Spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury.

-Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history.

-Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.

-Set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market.

-First president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

-First president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.

-First year in office set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history.

-After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in US history.

-Set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips than any other president in US history.

-In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their job.

-Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in US history.

-Set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12 month period.

-Appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.

-Set the record for the least amount of press conferences than any president since the advent of television.

-Signed more laws and executive orders circumventing the Constitution than any president in US history.

-Presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.

-Presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have.

-Cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.

-Set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind. (http://www.hyperreal.org/~dana/marches/)

-Dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.

-My presidency is the most secretive and un-accountable of any in US history.

-Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (the 'poorest' multi-millionaire, Condoleezza Rice has an Chevron oil tanker named after her).

-Had more states to simultaneously go bankrupt than any president in the history of the United States.

-Presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world.

-Created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States.

-Set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in US history.

-First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the human rights commission.

-First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the elections monitoring board.

-Removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.

-Rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.

-Withdrew from the World Court of Law.

-Refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.

-First president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 US elections).

-All-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.

-My biggest life-time campaign contributor presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).

-Spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.

-First president in US history to unilaterally attack a sovereign nation against the will of the United Nations and the world community.

-First president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)

-First US president to establish a secret shadow government.

-Took the biggest world sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).

-With a policy of 'dis-engagement' created the most hostile Israeli-Palestine relations in at least 30 years.

-Fist US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.

-First US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than their immediate neighbor, North Korea.

-Changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.

-Set all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling huge investments in corporations bidding for government contracts.

-Failed to fulfill my pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive'.

-Failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capitol building. After 18 months I have no leads and zero suspects.

-In the 18 months following the 911 attacks I have successfully prevented any public investigation into the biggest security failure in the history of the United States.

-Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history.

-In a little over two years created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided the US has ever been since the civil war.

-Entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.

-Records and References:

-At least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available).

-AWOL from National Guard and Deserted the military during a time of war.

-Refuse to take drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.

-All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.

-All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.

-All minutes of meetings for any public corporation I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.

-Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public review.

-For personal references please speak to my daddy or uncle James Baker (They can be reached at their offices of the Carlyle Group for war-profiteering.)

Oh yeah.. he deserves another four years.
He's an extremist that has no place in representing my country.

BikerPepe`

02-19-2004, 05:38 AM

"Behind him 100%" ????
You can't be serious.

Oh yeah.. he deserves another four years.
He's an extremist that has no place in representing my country.
.......... :stupid
Sad thing is... my party can't even afford to put up a candidate.
But at least we have... The Libertarian BABES Calendar!!! (http://rachelmills.com/calendar.html) :histerica :rockon :histerica :drinkbud :histerica

Seriously though... the silver spooned coke head may get my vote. The way things are shaping up even those who don't support him are starting to think... "Better the Devil I know, than the Devil I don't". :shrug

Foghorn

02-19-2004, 09:08 AM

[QUOTE=ValkariaKid

-First president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

[/QUOTE]

I'm gonna leave the rest of your post alone, but that little F@cker deserved to die for what he did. And we're fixing to get his buddy some justice too.----
Take care----Fog:usa :usa :usa

85f150

02-19-2004, 09:12 AM

I have to stick with Bush, he had the balls to actually take some kind of action on anything. Gore or ealrier with Clinton just wanted to make friends by briding everyone and thing.

Bobby

02-19-2004, 09:27 AM

He wasn't AWOL

I think you have him confused w/ clinton who ran away from the war like a
P!@#y

jackhart

02-19-2004, 09:50 AM

Support bush (He is a bronco owner)

:thumbup

Bush drives a bronco? :wtf

jerry 1 a b

02-19-2004, 10:13 AM

"Behind him 100%" ????
You can't be serious.

Yes I'm serious. If anything else, he's the lesser of two evils. I've already said everything else that I'm concerned with.

Bobby

02-19-2004, 10:20 AM

He has an early bronco he drives on his ranch in texas. The classic bronco guys were trying to get him to join the website for a while

southrnpride69

02-19-2004, 10:32 AM

I have to say I back bush 100% Our country has been attacked by terrortists every couple of years since the mid 70's whether it be my fellow military members at a sidewalk cafe in a foriegn port, a us embassy in africa, A destroyer in yemen, or the world trade centers, and nothing has been done Clinton and Gore just looked the other way when the cole was bombed and instead of defending our country the liberal morons cut military research,and spending,closed bases, and cut back the number of troops, theres a real rolemodel, Bush struck back after 9/11 and I deployed same day less than 12 hours after the attack, I spent 7 months off the coast of Pakistan(AFganistan has no coast it is land locked) also Bush may have had his own motives to go to Iraq, but it needed to happen, Hussien is a mass murderer and has been funneling money ,much of it american, to terrorists for years. I have heard people say we have no right to be over there, but unless you have seen how these people are forced to live like i have then Shut the F*ck up because you dont know what you are talking about, I serve proudly and am more than willing to go over there to make someone elses life better, If I die along the way well I am in the militery and I knew what that meant both times I enlisted.
You may not like bush but at least he is willing to defend your right to not like him.

Zach94

02-19-2004, 12:10 PM

... I've been talking to Vicente Fox, the new president of Mexico... I know him... to have gas and oil sent to U.S.... so we'll not depend on foreign oil... -- on the first Presidential debate, 10/03/2000

Hey, he's fixing one thing at a time

But hey, he warned us:
"I don't know whether I'm going to win or not. I think I am. I do know I'm ready for the job. And, if not, that's just the way it goes." ?Des Moines, Iowa, Aug. 21, 2000

J/K if anything I'm for him, I just think he's funny, and I think his competition is scary. Can you imagine John Kerry as our president, seriously?

scheki

02-19-2004, 01:28 PM

F the liberals.
J. Kerry can blow A. Gore.

95 BXL

02-19-2004, 02:03 PM

He wasn't AWOL

I think you have him confused w/ clinton who ran away from the war like a
P!@#y

Nah.... he just cut and paste a democratic national committee poster, which, like most democrats, was long on verbiage... but short on facts.

At the end of the day, Kerry would be one of the richest presidents in American history... certainly the recipe for someone looking out for the little guy. He is delusional... and has no business with his finger on the trigger.

Like Dennis Miller said:

"Today, the Kerry Campaign again denied that he used botox. They admitted, however, that he takes a daily dose of 'gaunt.'"

bockwho

02-19-2004, 02:21 PM

Question for J kerry ..? what will happen to the war on terrisom if you take office?

Their are 2 very week democratic canadits. right now ..

kerry thinks that the bush tax cut went to deep he wants to keep more of your money. ... To give to ... (poor people) ... Minority's . people putting crap on a stick calling it art. inotherowords .. people that CAN'T DO FOR THEM SELVES PEOPLE THAT WANT HANDOUTS ..

As a white male I qualify for nothing ... except a goverment withdrawal out of my pay check... ...

I am getting railled every month for getting a education and busting my butt. so some whore with 8 kids on crack can buy milk .. and bread... F*um .. survial of the fittest. cant work starve .. YOu care about them .. start a privately funded program to save their a//s's

pepe... Im a card carrring member of the libertairian party .. brother. ( ive never pm your or talked to you but .. YOur a brother .. ) ... if your not carring a card .. get one !

rats I have to go to work to pay for some crack head who thinks he dersives my money ..

BOCK

MikeW

02-19-2004, 06:16 PM

Couldn't agree with you more

Support bush (He is a bronco owner)

:thumbup

Wheres your source? I want to know if thats true.

MikeW

02-19-2004, 06:22 PM

I think the world would end if we had a Democrap in office, they are all wussies.
It is Clinton's fault for 9/11 because he missed 4 opportunities to get Bin Laden.

Bobby

02-19-2004, 07:16 PM

http://www.classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32317&highlight=bush+bronco

Its an older thread hope it works

oregonbronco

02-19-2004, 07:35 PM

i support Bush a 110% by far the best man for the job.

Lets remember kerry's track record

Supported Iraq war, now aganist
Supported Patriot Act, now aganist
Supported No Child Left behind, now aganist
Voted aganist giving death penalyt to terriost
Voted for Nuclear freeze
voted against f-14's and b-52 bombers,
and the list goes on and on...

Calls himself a war hero, but to me he isnt a war hero, when he threw war medals over the white house fence, and joined VVAW, and backstabbed all the troops over in Vietnam, wich, played a great roll in the loss of vietnam and lifes

We now have the greatest economic growth in 20 years, stock market over 10,000, low interest rate, and jobs are growing huge now. All because of Tax cuts

All you here from Kerry is "we have to get Bush out of office, and how horrinble the economy is" Lets rememeber Kerry, the economy was going in a recession when clinton was in office because of dot bombs, and when bush got in office less then a year later 9/11 happended, the stock market clsed, and 1,000s of jobs were lost in the world trade center, Thats why we had a receisson, and now we are almost out of it. Well Kerry's goal is to raise taxes and take money out of the peoples pocket! How in the heck does that move the Economy?

Sure I dont like everything bush does, like he dosent veto, he has george tenat still on board (biggest mistake clinton appointey), steel tariffs, some of his spending, but people dont realize we are on debt because of war and liberating 25 million people, Just imagine the Debt of Kerry was in office and he brought in Socialized Medicine!!!

Bush isnt perfect, but his pros outnumber his cons 10-1, I supoort him 100%, I crash anti-war protests, campaign for him, and when bush spends his 200 million dollars and starts to campaign, we well really see the really Ted kennedy (i mean John kerry), and I have a feeling bush will won no problem

GOD BLESS AMERICAN AND OUR TROOPS :usa

BUSH '04 :usa

ps-sorry for the long rant but i getted pissed seeing liberals spread the liars, etc....

I will have to show you a picture of my bronco with my stickers, Bush Cheney '04, Say no to war... Unless a democrat is president, Except for ending, Fascism, Slavery, communism, and Nazims, War has Never solved anything, and last but not least, I support President Bush and Our troops

thanks

GearHead

02-19-2004, 07:37 PM

i dont trust any of the f'er at all. they are all full of shitt and always have been.
think there where ever be a day when a average guy who makes 30 grand a year can run an honest campain and get elected? sadly i doubt it.
ever notice regardless of party affiliation how most all these jerks come from more money and influenace than most of us can even imagine?
you think you or i could get into yale with under a 700 on our sat? i couldnt with a 1140.
think that if your kid got busted with zanex and stolen prescribtion pads she woudlnt go to jail? id get the mandatory 3 years. not the slap on the wrist.
what are your chances of banging your intern at your office, lieing about it, get caught, and not lose your job? i'd get fired.
they all lie, they dont suffer the same consiquences for their actions as we do. they dont live by the same rules. they dont live the same lives as us.
ever notice they dont practice what they preach?
dont mis understand me, i love my country, wouldnt live anywhere else. but i hate my government.
if you think these guys really care about anybody but themselves, your smokin crack.

Uriah

02-19-2004, 08:44 PM

I used to be a Libertarian but had a real problem with certain parts of their platform (abortion, drugs, prostitution, ect...). I'd LOVE to join the Constitution Party if they ever caught on, not likely. I think we're just stuck with the 2 party system and the occasional third party in state/local politics.

metalhead

02-19-2004, 10:28 PM

oregonbronco

02-20-2004, 01:42 AM

Let me tell you what some people here think. There's this park here in Omaha called Memorial Park. In the center of it there's this big fancy white wall with an American flag in front of it. Well someone spray painted F-uck Bush on it as well as several anarchy symbols. I heard it on the news and laughed my ass off.

I dont know whats funny, im sure that was made for veterans, just remember if a conservative was to right f*ck clinton or kerry, the left would call us bigots, racists, etc... and it would be on national tv. Just remember if a democrat was in office, have fun trying to find place to off road, the liberals are more concerned about a salmon then a human, its pretty sad!

1911copper

02-20-2004, 05:36 AM

"Behind him 100%" ????
You can't be serious.

Yes, we are.

-Ran for congress and lost.

I suppose your candidate won every election he ran in?

-With fathers help (and his name) was elected Governor of Texas.

Yeah, he couldn't have won on his own, we know that, its a FACT.

Set record for most executions by any Governor in American history.

And the bad part?

-Became president after losing the popular vote by over 500,000 votes, with the help of my fathers appointments to the Supreme Court.

That's the way the electoral college works. I didn't hear any leftwing-liberal socialist democrats whine about that whenever it went their way.

-Attacked and took over two countries.

That's liberalese for Quashing terrorists and deposing viscious, murderous, torturing dictator who used chemical weapons on his own people and demonstrated his desire to wage war for nothing more than conquest.

-Spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury.

The only surplus that existed was that of the dem's fuzzy math. If it DID exist, its called a SURPLUS because the taxpayers were over taxed. I'm enjoying my tax cut. But it hardly makes up for the largest tax hike in history given to us by Der Slickster!

-Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history.

-Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.

-Set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market.

Maybe you don't keep up with current events. The high that the markets were riding for years due to the boost from internet trade had to peak and collapse eventually. Also, we were attacked by terrorists, the airline industry and all supporting industries were paralyzed, the world feared war, the bottom dropped out of the market- or didn't you get that net?

-First president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

And the bad part?

-In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their job.

See above. Read the papers.

-Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in US history.

Get a job.

-Set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12 month period.

See above. You know, the internet, the attacks, stuff beyond the president's control.

-Appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.

Hey, isn't that a good liberal democrat would do? They're people! You want murderers' lives to be spared, but you don't want to give a convict a break and a job?

-Set the record for the least amount of press conferences than any president since the advent of television.

As opposed to the "other" team's previous boy, who never missed an opportunity for a photo op. Boy, do we ever miss that.

-Presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.

The biggest energy crisis in history- you mean I just IMAGINED those lines at the pumps in the 70's?

-Presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have.

Wouldn't be a problem if the dems hadn't padlocked the oil rich fields of Alaska. Oh, yeah, its for the children-er, I mean the caribou.

-Set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind. (http://www.hyperreal.org/~dana/marches/)

What, did they all have to go through a turnstyle?

-My presidency is the most secretive and un-accountable of any in US history.

Assuming you leave out that "U.S. Secret Service Dating Service" from the previous administration.

Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (the 'poorest' multi-millionaire, Condoleezza Rice has an Chevron oil tanker named after her).

While all of those Dem cabinet members roam the street begging for alms...

-Had more states to simultaneously go bankrupt than any president in the history of the United States.

This has been covered- get a subscription to the paper and read it.

-Presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world.

Presided over= liberalese for in office when it happened- and your point?

-Created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States.

Please- he started shit-canning a plethora of Slick Willy's "from cradle to grave" departments almost immediately after taking office.

-Set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in US history.

(Yawn) we've covered this already- internet/attacks/war, and guess what? everything costs more as time goes by- its called inflation.

-First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the human rights commission.

-First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the elections monitoring board.

-Rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.

-Withdrew from the World Court of Law. [/QUOTE]

About damned time!

-Refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.

Is that worse than bombing aspirin factories to avert the media from "Monicagate"?

-First president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 US elections).

Like its any of their business.

-All-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.

And the problem? I know the party line is that "the rich are evil!" but the top 5% wage earners in the country pay 50% of the taxes. Who do you think create the most jobs? The rich, or those who live off your taxes but don't pay any?

-First president in US history to unilaterally attack a sovereign nation against the will of the United Nations and the world community.

United who?

-First president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)

What?

-First US president to establish a secret shadow government.

Care to substantiate that?

-Took the biggest world sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).

Never mind that the majority of world nations backed the US and the same "high thinking" Eurotrash whose bacon we saved in WWI and WWII (surprise, surprise) didn't want war. (Oh, yeah, and that other nation whose ass we whooped twice)

-Fist US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.

You're breaking my heart. Every time I make a decision, I first ask myself, what would my heroes, the Europeans do?

-Failed to fulfill my pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive'.

The fat lady hasn't yet sung. At least he didn't look the other way when Bin Laden was offerred on a platter.

-Failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capitol building. After 18 months I have no leads and zero suspects.

That's the president's job? Shit! What does the FBI do?

-In a little over two years created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided the US has ever been since the civil war.

No, that was the previous administration. Easily said, impossible to substantiate.

-Entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.

Read the paper, and lets get this straight: the economy was already well on its way down in the last year of the Slickster's administration.

-Records and References:

-At least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available).

What, no raping of women or unwanted advances? What a slacker.

-AWOL from National Guard and Deserted the military during a time of war.

Too bad the dems are having the damnedest time backing up this claim with any facts!

-Refuse to take drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.

"I never inhaled"

-All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.

Shucks! Where was this technique when Billy Clifford was struggling with "Whitewater" and the ADFA commission scandals?

Oh yeah.. he deserves another four years.

After Slick Willy, he smells like a rose!

Say, what's a good enviromentalist lefty like you doing on an evil site such as this, dedicated to that devil of SUVs, the gas guzzling, enviroment-****ling Bronco? Try this one:

SUVHate.org

You should feel more at home there. :)

1911copper

02-20-2004, 05:56 AM

Some of Bush's opponents caught with their pants down:

Here is a list of quotes from the liberal left made prior to 2004. All of these folks are now swivelling 180 degrees as election time approaches, attack GWB's administration for the war. It seems politics, timing, and perspective have more to do with some people's stance on the war than true ideals.
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." S
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001
"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandates of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002
"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years .. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002
"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" Rep.
- Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members .. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002
"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is is calculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
SO NOW THE DEMOCRATS SAY PRESIDENT BUSH LIED, THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND HE TOOK US TO WAR FOR HIS OIL BUDDIES???
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM....................
Now who is lying to the American Public?

BikerPepe`

02-20-2004, 06:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ValkariaKid
-Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in US history.

Get a job.
Hey Copper... STFU ASSWIPE! I just got laid off after Microsoft decided they didn't have any loyalty to the US Govt. (being treated so well by our government sueing them) and took thier support business to India and Canada. 4.5 yr's of dedicated service... F*CKIN' POOF!!! GONE!!! Too Bad, So sad for you!!! Did the US Govt. help me to retrain... HELL NO! I didn't make an actual product, so we (thousands of tech's nationwide) didn't qualify for NAFTA or anything like it. Instead they cut ALL UNEMPLOYMENT extensions in my state becouse even though we have the 3rd highest unemployment in the nation, we showed 2% growth over the last 2 years.
That meant that after erolling in college to retrain and scrimp by with my family on unemployment while retraining myself... I had to un-enroll becouse there was no way to feed my FAMILY! You get your 6 mo. unemployment and then you get dropped like a bad habit! Thanks G-fukin'-Dub Jr.

And don't even get me started on the Bush & Quail families involvment with Lilly Pharmacuticals and how deeply that whole trip ties into the so-called "War On Drugs". And don't forget the family ties to the DuPont frickin' nutball family and thier involvment in keeping HEMP out of American farmers hands becouse the material would make plastics irrelavent...

My Dad rots in Prison for 5 years being treated like a fukkin' criminal for growing some weed to self medicate and make a little extra cash selling to other responsible adults. 5 years Fed time... more than Rapist and even some Murderers!
Is it illegal... YES, but WHY? MONEY MAN! Not the majority of the nations will. Even folks who don't think pot should be legal generally agree that kind of sentancing is rediculas.

GOD, I"M PISSED!!! So your a cop... fine, big deal. Keep your HOLYier THAN THOU shit to yourself! Just becouse your lucky enough to have a job in these tight economic times is no reason to go around talkin' trash. There are many people out there with more skills and education than you will ever have that can't find work to save thier lives! I just happened to get lucky (thank GOD) but was almost to the wire myself.

my apologies to everyone... I just can't believe this kinda crap being said to another decent human being. dirty rotten... !!@#**@!!!

Broncobob

02-20-2004, 10:51 AM

I just can't believe this kinda crap being said to another decent human being. dirty rotten... !!@#**@!!!

Everyone is getting way out of hand here, including you Pepe, I'm not being mean, but everyone is saying some pretty harsh things. This is a discussion guys, keep your cool. As the starter of the post can a mod close this if they believe it's necessary, before people get overly-worked and decide to leave. Each person has THEIR opinion, your not going to change someone else's, and bashing someone else doesn't help, there just going to come back right at ya.

JetDoc

02-20-2004, 10:58 AM

These are bad times for alot of people. I have worked in the airline industry for the last twenty years. In the last year I've been laid off from my two part time jobs that I used to pay my child support, fix up the house etc etc...We are now getting told from my F/T employer that yet another 30% cut in PPI is on the way. I've been laid off in the past, and have always managed to come out better than I was before. Keep your chin up. As for the rest, I support Bush, not all of his policies, but he is by far better than the alternative.

Foghorn

02-20-2004, 10:59 AM

I think it's amuzing that we can sit here and disscuss religion, gay marraige and host of other "hot topics" without it getting really nasty but for some reason not politics....................................Take care---Fog

ValkariaKid

02-20-2004, 12:09 PM

I bet you guys would still vote for Bush if he and Bin Ladden were one in the same!

1911... from your responses to the dissection of my post it looks like you would be more at home in Germany 1939.

BTW.. I have a job... 2 of them (1 fulltime).

I cut and pasted that off of another board. Just like the first post was and 1911's post was. ....and your point is?

Before I get labled as a "Liberal", "Leftist", "Democrat" or any other little box you neocons like to put naysayers in let me beat you to it and define myself.
I'm a centrist with some liberal, and conservative beliefs. I'm registered as an independant. I don't feel that my beliefs are justly represented by the other common choices. When I vote I don't care what party the candidate belongs to just as long as I think "he's the man for the job". I won't give in, and toe the party line like so many sheeple do.

I wasn't happy when Bush won, but he's now my president, and when 9-11 happened EVERYONE rallied behind him... including me. When he won I didn't really expect things to change much over the course of his term, because no one man has that kind of power in this country.

It wasn't until Ashcroft came along that I started having some concerns, and started looking more closely at the people he gathered for his administration. What I found scared the shit out of me, and still does. He stacked his administration with more con-artists, religious fanatics, and money-grubbing, ass-****ing, lying theives never seen before in such a high power within our government.

They are in essence a little boys club that have only their own political, economic, religious and personal agendas in mind and are arrogant enough to do whatever it takes to profit from them.

He created an administration that's above the law, and for that reason alone I can't vote for him.
********
More reasons:
Bush intended to invade Iraq long before 9-11. He set the stage for it, and all he needed was a 'cataclysmic' event to take place so he can pull his trigger. 9-11 was that event. He lied to us when he and his cronies said that Iraq was an imminent threat to us. He sold us his bill of goods, and we bought it. Hook, line and sinker.

Wasn't it Rumsfeld who said "We know he (Saddam) has WMD's, and we know exactly where they are"?

Well apparently that was too a lie. We still haven't found them.
The intelligence on the ground said they didn't exist.
We DO know that he had them.
That's obvious, and undisputable, but if Rummy said he knows that he still has them, and knows where they are why haven't we found them?
Where are they?

More importantly whatever happened to Bush pledging to make bringing the "evil-doers" responsible for the 9-11 attacks to justice this nation's top priority?
Wouldn't you think that we'd have a much better chance of doing that if we used the 300,000 troops that are now in Iraq for finding OBL?

Bush himself admitted that there wasn't a direct link between Al-Queda(sp?) and Iraq.
We're there because Sadamm tried to kill his daddy.

The nation's top priority took a back seat to his personal vengance against SH.

The news today is that we're going to have at least 100,000 troops stay in Iraq for at least a few years until a self supporting democracy is in place. This administration still thinks that a democracy is possible in the middle east!
Better get used to the daily news of another soldier dying in Iraq because it's going to last a real long time.

At this current rate we'll have more dead American soldiers than people killed in the actual attacks on 9-11 before we pull them out. Yet the man responsible (OBL) is still on the loose.

Speaking of dead American soldiers have you ever wondered why you don't see them being carried off the transport planes returning from Ramstein in their caskets with flags draped over them while a military honor guard salutes their fallen brothers? Well it's because our wondersul president banned any type of ceremony, or media coverage of it.
What a way to salute the very people that carried out his revenge.
If you ask me it's pretty ****in' sad.
Unfortunately hiding things like this from the public is the norm with this administration. They're masters at this sort of thing. When they don't like the rules that can expose them for the crooks that they are they simply change them.

Just as I'm typing this another example of the Bush administration's three-card-monte game gets played.

Bush's changes to advisory process draw scientists' ire
Thu Feb 19, 6:53 AM ET

By Dan Vergano, USA TODAY

A bipartisan, all-star roster of Nobel Prize winners and former federal science officials accused the Bush administration Wednesday of politicizing science.

"When scientific knowledge has been found to be in conflict with its political goals, the administration has often manipulated the process through which science enters into its decisions," charges a document signed by 60 scientists in an unprecedented joint effort by the leaders of the nation's science establishment. Signers include 20 Nobel Prize winners and 19 recipients of the National Medal of Science.

They are calling for an independent congressional investigation of federal science-advisory policies.

So basicly now the Bush administration get's to decide what scientific evidence gets released, and what it will say. Apparently they think they now know more than the experts.

I could go on, but this post is getting a bit long as it is.
Needless to say I can't vote for they guy. I just can't.
Kerry's just another lame-ass politician, he's the only choice I have to send Bush back to Texas.

I used to vote for my hopes, and not my fears, but in this election my fears far outweigh my hopes.

ValkariaKid

02-20-2004, 12:31 PM

I think it's amuzing that we can sit here and disscuss religion, gay marraige and host of other "hot topics" without it getting really nasty but for some reason not politics

Well it got pretty nasty with some of those too.

The current political climate in this country has a bigger presense in our lives than it did before so obviously people are going to be more 'vocal' about it.

Millions are out of work, the economy is still in the crapper, our solders are getting killed in Iraq at the rate of one per day, we still don't have any closure for 9-11, we get daily reports of our government blatantly lying to us, daily reports of their coverups, the upcoming election, our freedoms are slowly being taken away, more Americans are suffering than before, and more of us are now living in fear everytime the "terrorism traffic light" escalates up one more notch.

It's a bad time we're in, and in november we'll have an opportunity to try and make things better.

The 'pursuit of happiness' slice of my daily routine pie-chart is getting smaller while the 'babysit my government' slice is getting larger.

94_chickentaco

02-20-2004, 01:22 PM

More reasons:
Bush intended to invade Iraq long before 9-11. He set the stage for it, and all he needed was a 'cataclysmic' event to take place so he can pull his trigger. 9-11 was that event. He lied to us when he and his cronies said that Iraq was an imminent threat to us. He sold us his bill of goods, and we bought it. Hook, line and sinker

Read more. The plan was approved by clinton before he left office.

You believe Iraq was not an immenant threat?

For a Centrist you come off very, very liberal.

Dirtdigger

02-20-2004, 01:35 PM

ValkariaKid

02-20-2004, 01:44 PM

You believe Iraq was not an immenant threat?
Not at all.
How were they?
N.Korea is more a threat to us than Iraq ever was.

For a Centrist you come off very, very liberal.
How so?
Because I don't approve of what Bush has done?
What about republicans that don't approve of Bush?
(I was a registered republican up until 3 years ago when I moved to FL and had to reregister.)

On a side note:
Everyone says that Bush is a conservative yet everything he has done so far makes him an extremist.... a very religious extremist.

ValkariaKid

02-20-2004, 01:54 PM

The plan was approved by clinton before he left office.
They sure as hell were, but the circumstances that must happen (UN approval) before any action would take place, were ignored by the current president.

I have a plan to shoot and kill anyone that enters my home and threatens my life, but I have to wait for it to actually happen before I shoot.

Dirtdigger

02-20-2004, 01:57 PM

Read more. The plan was approved by clinton before he left office.

You believe Iraq was not an immenant threat?

For a Centrist you come off very, very liberal.

Read more. The plan was approved by clinton before he left office.
You believe Iraq was not an immenant threat?

For a Centrist you come off very, very liberal.

What are you saying CT , that Clinton planed the war ? That sure is'nt what all the super conserv's want us to belive . They want Bush to have the credit for " liberating " Iraq . Just wondering . :shrug

Staying out of this one though , enough was said here ...http://66.45.232.215/~fullsize/forum/showthread.php?t=11935

oregonbronco

02-20-2004, 02:01 PM

It wasn't until Ashcroft came along that I started having some concerns, and started looking more closely at the people he gathered for his administration. What I found scared the shit out of me, and still does. He stacked his administration with more con-artists, religious fanatics, and money-grubbing, ass-****ing, lying theives never seen before in such a high power within our government.

They are in essence a little boys club that have only their own political, economic, religious and personal agendas in mind and are arrogant enough to do whatever it takes to profit from them.

He created an administration that's above the law, and for that reason alone I can't vote for him.
********
More reasons:
Bush intended to invade Iraq long before 9-11. He set the stage for it, and all he needed was a 'cataclysmic' event to take place so he can pull his trigger. 9-11 was that event. He lied to us when he and his cronies said that Iraq was an imminent threat to us. He sold us his bill of goods, and we bought it. Hook, line and sinker.

Wasn't it Rumsfeld who said "We know he (Saddam) has WMD's, and we know exactly where they are"?

Well apparently that was too a lie. We still haven't found them.
The intelligence on the ground said they didn't exist.
We DO know that he had them.
That's obvious, and undisputable, but if Rummy said he knows that he still has them, and knows where they are why haven't we found them?
Where are they?

More importantly whatever happened to Bush pledging to make bringing the "evil-doers" responsible for the 9-11 attacks to justice this nation's top priority?
Wouldn't you think that we'd have a much better chance of doing that if we used the 300,000 troops that are now in Iraq for finding OBL?

Bush himself admitted that there wasn't a direct link between Al-Queda(sp?) and Iraq.
We're there because Sadamm tried to kill his daddy.

The nation's top priority took a back seat to his personal vengance against SH.

The news today is that we're going to have at least 100,000 troops stay in Iraq for at least a few years until a self supporting democracy is in place. This administration still thinks that a democracy is possible in the middle east!
Better get used to the daily news of another soldier dying in Iraq because it's going to last a real long time.

At this current rate we'll have more dead American soldiers than people killed in the actual attacks on 9-11 before we pull them out. Yet the man responsible (OBL) is still on the loose.

Speaking of dead American soldiers have you ever wondered why you don't see them being carried off the transport planes returning from Ramstein in their caskets with flags draped over them while a military honor guard salutes their fallen brothers? Well it's because our wondersul president banned any type of ceremony, or media coverage of it.
What a way to salute the very people that carried out his revenge.
If you ask me it's pretty ****in' sad.
Unfortunately hiding things like this from the public is the norm with this administration. They're masters at this sort of thing. When they don't like the rules that can expose them for the crooks that they are they simply change them.

Just as I'm typing this another example of the Bush administration's three-card-monte game gets played.

Bush's changes to advisory process draw scientists' ire
Thu Feb 19, 6:53 AM ET

By Dan Vergano, USA TODAY

A bipartisan, all-star roster of Nobel Prize winners and former federal science officials accused the Bush administration Wednesday of politicizing science.

"When scientific knowledge has been found to be in conflict with its political goals, the administration has often manipulated the process through which science enters into its decisions," charges a document signed by 60 scientists in an unprecedented joint effort by the leaders of the nation's science establishment. Signers include 20 Nobel Prize winners and 19 recipients of the National Medal of Science.

They are calling for an independent congressional investigation of federal science-advisory policies.

So basicly now the Bush administration get's to decide what scientific evidence gets released, and what it will say. Apparently they think they now know more than the experts.

I could go on, but this post is getting a bit long as it is.
Needless to say I can't vote for they guy. I just can't.
Kerry's just another lame-ass politician, he's the only choice I have to send Bush back to Texas.

I used to vote for my hopes, and not my fears, but in this election my fears far outweigh my hopes.

I love how you try to make fun of Bush as Religius and a crook Are you joking? If the last president had some kind of Religion, maybe he would be such a crooked president himself and thief

Ya and clinton had no Political Agenda???? god this is great!!!

What have you been listening to HOWARD DEAN??? YIKES that whole thing about invading Iraq before 9-11 was spit by Howard Dean, was proven false, and you look where Howard Dean is now

Ya Rumsfeld said there was WMD's so did AL GORE, BILL CLINTON, JOHN KERRY, JOHN EDWARDS ETC.. say there were WMD's, so before you vash someone get the real facts

This is my thought where they are, When the crooked UN went into Iraq to Search, why did saddam always dealy them, if he nothing to hide why didn't he jsut let them in right away? I personally think there in syria, because they don't want to cooperate with us.

AFGHANASTAIN AND IRAQ LIBERATED 25 MILLION PEOPLE FREED AND COUNTING! When i last check there were no evil getters in office in those countries, and when i last heard they were being pulled out of holes, and are hiding in caves, and the deserts, that shows me Bush scares the living $hit out of them, but I only could imagine if a commi/soci. demonrat was in office, that would be scary

Well Al Qaeda is being found in Iraq and Afghanastain, and wasnt it Al-Qaeda who flew the planes in to the twin towers!

I hate to see any troop[s die but we are around 600 way less then any 2 wars, I would take that then have 400,000+ mass graves still in use, rape rooms, gas chambers, dead kurds, peoples tounges cut off then tied up and throwen off a building. When you join the military you expect the chance of war, you don'tjust go in there thinking YES FREE EDUCATION AND MONEY!, if you think that you shouldnt be in the service.

THANKS GOD FOR PRESIDENT BUSH!!!! THE DEMOCRATS THINK ITS BAD WERE GOING AFTER EVIL, THEY RATHER HAVE US GET BOMBED, THEN THEY WOULD HAVE TO THINK FOR A YEAR TO DCIDE IT WAS JUST TO EVEN BOMB THEM, OR EVEN WORSE THEN THAT, IF ANY OF THESE 4 STOOGES NOW GOT IN OFFICE WE WOULD BARELY HAVE A MILITARY YIKES!

BUSH '04

oregonbronco

02-20-2004, 02:05 PM

Not at all.
How were they?
N.Korea is more a threat to us than Iraq ever was.

How so?
Because I don't approve of what Bush has done?
What about republicans that don't approve of Bush?
(I was a registered republican up until 3 years ago when I moved to FL and had to reregister.)

On a side note:
Everyone says that Bush is a conservative yet everything he has done so far makes him an extremist.... a very religious extremist.

N. Korea is cooperating a little bit with us, if we were to go after N. korea now we would be nuked, and they have a huge @ss military. Ya in the future im sure somday we will go after them

Well what I here you hate anything Bush does, still can't dig up the correct facts, and you only fail to show the negative of Bush, but cant seem to realize the more negatives the left has done. To me it seems you and the liberals would rather have Saddam, and Osama in office, becuase techincally "Peace" means doing nothing and "lets just get along"

ValkariaKid

02-20-2004, 02:09 PM

It is Clinton's fault for 9/11 because he missed 4 opportunities to get Bin Laden.
I know.. everything's Clinton's fault!
With that out of the way care to substantiate those "missed 4 opportunities"?
I'll give you a hint... it has to do with a Pakastani businessman.

Originally Posted by ValkariaKid
-Failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capitol building. After 18 months I have no leads and zero suspects.

That's the president's job? Shit! What does the FBI do?
I could easily just retype 1911's reply to you and it's OK right?
OK for one president, but not the other?
c'mon.......

1911copper

02-20-2004, 02:35 PM

Hey Copper... STFU ASSWIPE!
Hey, we may disagree on an issue, but you immediately resort to name-calling and language? What's that all about?

I just got laid off after Microsoft decided they didn't have any loyalty to the US Govt. (being treated so well by our government sueing them) and took thier support business to India and Canada. 4.5 yr's of dedicated service... F*CKIN' POOF!!! GONE!!! Too Bad, So sad for you!!! Did the US Govt. help me to retrain... HELL NO! I didn't make an actual product, so we (thousands of tech's nationwide) didn't qualify for NAFTA or anything like it. Instead they cut ALL UNEMPLOYMENT extensions in my state becouse even though we have the 3rd highest unemployment in the nation, we showed 2% growth over the last 2 years.
That meant that after erolling in college to retrain and scrimp by with my family on unemployment while retraining myself... I had to un-enroll becouse there was no way to feed my FAMILY! You get your 6 mo. unemployment and then you get dropped like a bad habit! Thanks G-fukin'-Dub Jr.

No, thank Bubba Klinton and his band of liberal socialists who don't believe in capitalism. You think Bush started this with Microsoft? Why do you think Gates has switched to the right? Bubba and his henchmen decided that just because Gates made a product that was a "better mousetrap" than anyone elses, didn't mean he could reap all of the profits of the market. That would be too capitalist- you, know, like free enterprise. That's the problem with liberals- when they decide everyone has to be equal (regardless of how smart or hard any of us work), they always do so by lowering everyone to the lowest common denominator.

And don't even get me started on the Bush & Quail families involvment with Lilly Pharmacuticals and how deeply that whole trip ties into the so-called "War On Drugs". And don't forget the family ties to the DuPont frickin' nutball family and thier involvment in keeping HEMP out of American farmers hands becouse the material would make plastics irrelavent...

My Dad rots in Prison for 5 years being treated like a fukkin' criminal for growing some weed to self medicate and make a little extra cash selling to other responsible adults. 5 years Fed time... more than Rapist and even some Murderers!
Is it illegal... YES, but WHY? MONEY MAN! Not the majority of the nations will. Even folks who don't think pot should be legal generally agree that kind of sentancing is rediculas.

Once again, don't lay the war on drugs on Bush or his ilk. Maybe you forgot that President Billy Klifford fired Jocelyn Elders as Surgeon General because she was advocating the legalization of drugs, which he staunchly refused to do.
Yes, its because of money, from both sides. (lawmakers AND criminals) Neither side wants to see their cash crop go legal and end the trade. Personally, (although I'd never use drugs, including pot) I would like to see drugs legalized. A big bunch would remove themselves from the gene pool by overdosing and other effects, and the majority of the remaining dopers would pay taxes, get pharmecutical grade stuff, it would be more regulated, the crime related the trade would evaporate over night, (the lucrative business that powers the gangs would dry up, most importantly) and we'd open lots of cell space for molesters, rapists, murderers, and other violent criminals.
Yeah, the truth in sentencing laws have flaws, but once again, that happened on Bubba's watch, so don't lay it all on Bush.

I know you love your dad, and I've already said that I'd legalize dope tommorow if I was king, but still, your dad was a grown man and took a calculated risk- and got caught. Did he not know the consequences?

GOD, I"M PISSED!!! So your a cop... fine, big deal. Keep your HOLYier THAN THOU shit to yourself! Just becouse your lucky enough to have a job in these tight economic times is no reason to go around talkin' trash. There are many people out there with more skills and education than you will ever have that can't find work to save thier lives! I just happened to get lucky (thank GOD) but was almost to the wire myself.

my apologies to everyone... I just can't believe this kinda crap being said to another decent human being. dirty rotten... !!@#**@!!!

Pepe, I'm sorry you lost your job. Its true that it happens to decent, hard working folks sometimes too. My comment was directed at the liberal propagandist rhetoric in that post, and I was referring to the millions of lazy ass folks that lose a job (or never really maintain any constant, as far as employment) then sit on their asses drawing unemployment rather than take ANY job temporarily until they find something better.
BEFORE I got into my present line of work, I got laid off from another job. I had a wife to support, so I wasn't too proud to take what I could get until I found what I wanted. As a grown man and a Marine Corps vet, I took a job working at a damned car wash that my brother managed (washing the cars, not a paper/clerical job) and worked nights at Friggin' Mcdonalds. Meanwhile, my friends were too good for that, and collected unemployment. That's what I'm talking about.
And Pepe, what the hell does my profession have to do with it? Did I lord it over you or anyone else like a badge of honor? Fact of the matter is, even with 14 years in, at the third highest rank in the department, you probably made more than I at Microsoft, and probably still do, and I do have a B.S. degree. On top of that, I pay child support on my kids and spend about $5000.00 a year average to fly them back and forth so I can see them. Up until last June, I had to work a second job as security in an apartment high-rise to make ends meet and save for a house. That meant getting paged out regularly at 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 in the morning to babysit morons, and still be up at 4:30 to get ready for my day job. It ain't all gravy, bro.
I don't think I'm better than you because I'm a cop. I consider myself a PART of MY community, and I do the job with that attitude. I'm sorry I offended you, you aren't the sort that I was targeting with that comment.
I'm glad for you and your family that you got back on your feet.

Foghorn

02-20-2004, 03:00 PM

A very wise man once said this....

FRIENDS OF F.S.B. - I think these discussions are great... they help to make us ALL better Americans and better VOTERS... BUT THERE IS NO REASON TO START ATTACKING FOLKS PERSONALLY!!! If you can't talk about your politics w/out disrespecting someone, what are you saying for your party and beliefs?

I think everyone needs to back away from the keyboard and take a deep breath..We've got until November to hash this out....... :shrug :shrug

ValkariaKid

02-20-2004, 03:02 PM

I love how you try to make fun of Bush as Religius and a crook Are you joking?
I'm not making fun of it at all. I'm just saying that he's forcing his religion on everyone when religion has no place in government. Separation of church and state.

that whole thing about invading Iraq before 9-11 was spit by Howard Dean, was proven false, and you look where Howard Dean is now
Ummm... no.
That came from a former member of his administration Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill.

Ya Rumsfeld said there was WMD's so did AL GORE, BILL CLINTON, JOHN KERRY, JOHN EDWARDS ETC.. say there were WMD's, so before you vash someone get the real facts
Everyone you listed said that Iraq HAD WMD's in the past. Rummy said that they have them now, and knows where they are!

This is my thought where they are, When the crooked UN went into Iraq to Search, why did saddam always dealy them, if he nothing to hide why didn't he jsut let them in right away? I personally think there in syria, because they don't want to cooperate with us
Well I have thoughts about where they are too, but without proof I'll just have to take the word of the guys that were there... that "crooked UN" you refer to.
BTW.. what makes them crooked?
Because they followed international law in denying us their approval for invading Iraq?
Explain.

AFGHANASTAIN AND IRAQ LIBERATED 25 MILLION PEOPLE FREED AND COUNTING! When i last check there were no evil getters in office in those countries, and when i last heard they were being pulled out of holes, and are hiding in caves, and the deserts, that shows me Bush scares the living $hit out of them, but I only could imagine if a commi/soci. demonrat was in office, that would be scary
It's kind of hard understanding what the hell you're trying to say, but I'll try.
Iraq is still filled with "evil getters"? I think. What the hell is an evil getter?
Well... nice people aren't killing our soldiers in Iraq at a rate of one per day.

You really need to read more. We're not liberating anyone in Afghanistan. We're there because that's where OBL was before we lost him. We're not in Iraq to liberate anyone either. We are there because Bush and co. told us that Iraq was an imminent threat to us with his WMD's, and we needed to act now to prevent SH from using them. If bush said we needed to invade Iraq just to liberate Iraquis from SH we would've never have gone. After all bringing OBL to justice for 9-11 was our nation's top priority... remember?

Well Al Qaeda is being found in Iraq and Afghanastain, and wasnt it Al-Qaeda who flew the planes in to the twin towers!
Is that a question?
They're everywhere! They have cells all over the globe. So by your reasoning we should invade nearly every country on the planet!

THANKS GOD FOR PRESIDENT BUSH!!!! THE DEMOCRATS THINK ITS BAD WERE GOING AFTER EVIL, THEY RATHER HAVE US GET BOMBED, THEN THEY WOULD HAVE TO THINK FOR A YEAR TO DCIDE IT WAS JUST TO EVEN BOMB THEM, OR EVEN WORSE THEN THAT, IF ANY OF THESE 4 STOOGES NOW GOT IN OFFICE WE WOULD BARELY HAVE A MILITARY YIKES!
WOAH! There's a mouthful!
It's been over two years and we still don't have OBL. Instead we got sidetracked by the job of liberating Iraquis.
Yeah that's it... we meant to do that. Everyone forget 9-11 and let's just go after every evil person in the world, and let's start with the one that tried to kill my daddy.

N. Korea is cooperating a little bit with us, if we were to go after N. korea now we would be nuked, and they have a huge @ss military. Ya in the future im sure somday we will go after them
"Yeah I heard that they got sumadoes nu-clear weapons over there"
Iraq cooperated "a bit" with the UN inspectors too, and they were never as much of a threat to us as N.Korea is.

Well what I here you hate anything Bush does, still can't dig up the correct facts, and you only fail to show the negative of Bush, but cant seem to realize the more negatives the left has done.
Not at all.
There are a few things he did that I sort of like, but listing them here won't do me any good. Apparently listing facts about what I don't like about Bush won't do me any good either because I'm convinced you don't want to hear them.
Like I said if Bush and OBL were one in the same you'll still vote for him.

BTW.. what are the "negatives" that "the left" have done that you're referring to?
Anything in particular or just "in general"?

typical

Dirtdigger

02-20-2004, 03:12 PM

A very wise man once said this....

I think everyone needs to back away from the keyboard and take a deep breath..We've got until November to hash this out....... :shrug :shrug

Wise man ????? :shocked Who could that be , .............oh yea ! :thumbup :toothless

jerry 1 a b

02-20-2004, 05:16 PM

Bush struck back after 9/11 and I deployed same day less than 12 hours after the attack, I spent 7 months off the coast of Pakistan(AFganistan has no coast it is land locked)

Me too, well sorta. We left for NYC by lunch same day, and were the first ones there. We sat out off the coast while the GW went into the harbor. Then after a few days, we returned to Norfolk for about a week of Port and Starboard rotation and then left for our 6 month 3 days early. Thanks to the JFK, it turned into almost 7 months, with only 2 port visits in Ba Ha rain*, and then 1 in Cartagenia, Spain. My ship was the first to pass through the straits of Gibralter*, and then the first to pass through 'The Ditch' after 9/11 took place.

oregonbronco

02-20-2004, 05:36 PM

Well I think its cool peoplehave there diffrent views, Im tired of arguing with valkariakid, he set on his ways, and I like my ways and thats what makes America great because under saddam or osama, you couldnt oppose the leadrer because you would be killed. Im curious ValkariaKid what conservative Views do you have?

jerry 1 a b

02-20-2004, 05:42 PM

You know, I didn't have a chance to make it to the end of this thread when I posted a minute ago. I must say though, this is why I hate polotics. Nothing can seperate a group of good guys/friends more than polotics and women. And the sad part is that most of us may have the same beliefs and morals, yet different perspectives cause us to disagree. Everyone makes mistakes. It's just like the parabel... Let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone. I love my country, because I've been to others (lived in Haiti for over a year not to mention my time in the military) and seen how things work. I have fought for our freedom of choice, so I'm voting for Bush, because from my perspective, he's the best man for the job out of our slim line-up, and I have earned my right to choose.

Zach94

02-20-2004, 05:55 PM

^Awesome

Hopefully everyone talks to each other after this. And I agree, is not usually the overall picture people disagree on, but they get hung up on little things.

95 BXL

02-20-2004, 07:01 PM

At the end of the day, it boils down to either Bush with a Republican Congress or Kerry with a Republican Congress.

Kerry would be a disaster as a leader. Bush, warts and all, will/would/does do a better job.

The efforts made by the leftists to destroy his character will boil over the pale. We can all rest assured that the leftist anger and hatred, which, in my opinion, far eclipses anything experienced in the Clinton era, will result in the most vitriolic campaign in this nation's history.

There is no lie they will not tell, no truth they will not stretch to elect Kerry. And the reason for their motivation? They're STILL pissed about Florida.

Their positions are not based on what's best for this country. After all, how can electing a nutberger like Kerry be best for this country? No... their positions are based on hatred of anything or anyone who doesn't happen to see it their way.

Thus, posts like ValkariaKid's.... someone attempting to gain credibility by claiming to be a centrist (as if) while espousing every popular leftist, liberal theme and position available. I submit the duck test tells the tale.

It takes a great deal more to be a centrist then just mouthing the words. And when one says something like "I bet you guys would still vote for Bush if he and Bin Ladden were one in the same!" that is pure, ultra-leftist Bush-hating pap.

Is Bush perfect? Of course not. But neither is Kerry.... who has yet to offer any plan to change things, who has yet to say what HE would do to fix Iraq, who has yet to take a single position (as opposed to multiple positions) on gay marriage, who already wants to raise our taxes, and who has yet to exhibit a shred of presidential leadership.

So, even tho I am not wild about Bush, I'll still be voting for him, because, in the end, he's the best available. I ain't thrilled about it.... but there it is.

GearHead

02-20-2004, 07:38 PM

i'm begining to think that if some one doenst go along with the status quo or has a differnent opinion then they are labeled a liberal and seemed to be deemed in a derogitory light.
ever listen to am radio and hear a guy named sean colmes(sp?) he has a show on tv with another guy who i cant think of his name. he says the same crap every day, something about the evil liberals in the country.
i think that its really great that living in america, a place where the 1st amendment is free speach, that if you dont go along with the program and have a differnt idea, that your labed a bad person. good going guys. i bet the founding fathers of the consitution are rolling in their graves over how we have butchard the bill of rights, and how sticking on the right side, or the left side is more important than chosing the right guy.
i have voted for both partys in the past. usually not liking either of them. this the case again.
i just think that its pretty lame that if i decide to vote for the other guy, not bush, that i will then be labeled a commie, evil, liberal. pretty funny seeing how i generaly am more conservitive than the ones judging me liberal.
and just outta curiosity, lets say i decide to to become a tree hugger. why in a free country does that make me a fool or a bad person?
seems we are all becoming less and less tolarent of others. last time i studyed the consitution, (4 years in college) we all had the same rights and were to be treated as equals. seems to be a growing population that thinks we are not equal anymore, and they are above the rest.
just so we understand i'm not refering to anybody here on fsb, so if i got your panties in a bunch, thats all on you. i'm just refering to what i have been reading and hearing the last few years. guys like rush, colmes, neal bott, todd schnitt and all the rest. funny, are they the liberal media i keep hearing about?
i'm just kinda sick of all the bickering and half truths. seems all there is today is name calling and finger pointing. and its from all sides. just getting old.

Dirtdigger

02-20-2004, 07:44 PM

I love how you try to make fun of Bush as Religius and a crook Are you joking? If the last president had some kind of Religion, maybe he would be such a crooked president himself and thief

Ya and clinton had no Political Agenda???? god this is great!!!

What have you been listening to HOWARD DEAN??? YIKES that whole thing about invading Iraq before 9-11 was spit by Howard Dean, was proven false, and you look where Howard Dean is now

Ya Rumsfeld said there was WMD's so did AL GORE, BILL CLINTON, JOHN KERRY, JOHN EDWARDS ETC.. say there were WMD's, so before you vash someone get the real facts

This is my thought where they are, When the crooked UN went into Iraq to Search, why did saddam always dealy them, if he nothing to hide why didn't he jsut let them in right away? I personally think there in syria, because they don't want to cooperate with us.

AFGHANASTAIN AND IRAQ LIBERATED 25 MILLION PEOPLE FREED AND COUNTING! When i last check there were no evil getters in office in those countries, and when i last heard they were being pulled out of holes, and are hiding in caves, and the deserts, that shows me Bush scares the living $hit out of them, but I only could imagine if a commi/soci. demonrat was in office, that would be scary

Well Al Qaeda is being found in Iraq and Afghanastain, and wasnt it Al-Qaeda who flew the planes in to the twin towers!

I hate to see any troop[s die but we are around 600 way less then any 2 wars, I would take that then have 400,000+ mass graves still in use, rape rooms, gas chambers, dead kurds, peoples tounges cut off then tied up and throwen off a building. When you join the military you expect the chance of war, you don'tjust go in there thinking YES FREE EDUCATION AND MONEY!, if you think that you shouldnt be in the service.

THANKS GOD FOR PRESIDENT BUSH!!!! THE DEMOCRATS THINK ITS BAD WERE GOING AFTER EVIL, THEY RATHER HAVE US GET BOMBED, THEN THEY WOULD HAVE TO THINK FOR A YEAR TO DCIDE IT WAS JUST TO EVEN BOMB THEM, OR EVEN WORSE THEN THAT, IF ANY OF THESE 4 STOOGES NOW GOT IN OFFICE WE WOULD BARELY HAVE A MILITARY YIKES!

BUSH '04

Really............I thought there were only three stooges !

http://www.superford.org/getfile.php?id=107293&toggle=fullsize&f=bush_stooges.jpg

MikeW

02-20-2004, 09:46 PM

I am against gay marriage. I wouldn't know how to handle it if I had a homo freind, I am glad it never happened yet. Why would I want to ask someone if hes married, and he says hes married to another guy instead of a woman, Id puke my guts out.

jerry 1 a b

02-20-2004, 09:55 PM

seems to be a growing population that thinks we are not equal anymore

It's not a growing population, it's always been that way. It just changes from time to time as to who thinks they are better than who. For example, race is always an issue, weather it be black and white, latin and white, etc.. You have women's rights activists, green peace, those with money vs. those that don't, blah blah blah. There is always somebody voicing their opinions about their superiority. And, the founding fathers wouldn't be rolling in their graves, because it was just as bad in those days. The only things that have changed over time have been how we perceive. The founding fathers (most of them) including some of the ones that we (even I) look upon as heros and great men, tried everything they could to word things in order to benefit them, and not others. Sure, some things were meant to be fair, but always with a twist to keep the other side from getting the upper hand. Just take the Grandfather Clause for example, (late 1800's to early 1900's) which was only set in place to prevent blacks from being able to vote. Our country has tons of twisted and backwards issues. Look at how we've taken prayer out of schools, and the word God out of the pledge of aliegance*, all to keep from stepping on anyone's toes or hurt anyones feelings. 'If I can't practice witch craft at school, then you can't pray, and the fact that you say God at all offends me!' What kinda bull is that? Or how about a first grader pulls a girl's hair, and then has charges pressed against him for sexual harrassment by his (women's rights activist) teacher. Everyone tries to take things out of context to benefit their cause, and in the end, they are usually only concerned with themselves anyhow.

jerry 1 a b

02-20-2004, 10:04 PM

just so we understand i'm not refering to anybody here on fsb, so if i got your panties in a bunch, thats all on you.

Don't worry about it. :thumbup :beer We're all grown ups here, some more than others.

Hey, opinion's are like a$$holes. Everyone's got one, and most of them stink. We're human, and Americans :usa and we've fought for our rights to bitch and moan. It's all worth it, and sometimes you have to speak up! Sometimes people need to hear other views. Sometimes people are wrong and don't even realize it until they hear the way someone else views the issue.

GearHead

02-20-2004, 10:04 PM

Everyone tries to take things out of context to benefit their cause, and in the end, they are usually only concerned with themselves anyhow.

been this way since the start, and will be till the end. i'm just sick of it.

oregonbronco

02-20-2004, 11:29 PM

GearHead

02-21-2004, 01:29 AM

yeah thats the guy i'm talking about. i try to read and listen to everything. try to catch both points of view. but that guy is a goof. every day he just rambles about the same crap. nothing very articulate or really informative. just a lot of whining. according to him bush is the greatest thing since sliced bread., and if you dont agree with him, your an idiot. personal i dont think bush is great, and neither is the other guy. i'm not really buying into his argument that terrorism is the only important issue in this election. important, yes. the only i dont think so.
i'v seen their show. i really cant stand either of them.
apparntly hannity has a new book out. guess he's just floating his own boat to help out his book sales. he really hasnt impressed me enough to go out and buy it.

BikerPepe`

02-21-2004, 04:59 AM

BroncoBob... when your right your right man!
Fog... you the man!
DirtDigger... sure, rub it in!

TIME TO EAT MY SHARE OF CROW... :brownbag

First... my apologies to ALL OF F.S.B. for going off like that. It was uncalled for. I've been working until 5am for the last few days and my emotions are totally wacked with all the recent ups and down x little sleep.
My sincere apologies... to all and especially you 1911copper!
While I have my own issue's with law enforcment growing up as I did, I also understand the need for law enforcment and I do appreciate the risks you guys put yourselves in regularly for the public good and a meager paycheck.
I am somewhat shamed after re-reading my tirade. My feelings are too strong in these area's (Job Scene & WAR on DRUGS). :brownbag
NO... wait, I'm going through MENTAL-PAUSE! Yea yea... that's it! :wacko
Sorry copper... let's see if I can address your post properly now, with stillno sleep, but a mouthfull of crow.

Hey, we may disagree on an issue, but you immediately resort to name-calling and language? What's that all about?
Absolutly... my bad, please forgive. Totally lost it... :brownbag

No, thank Bubba Klinton and his band of liberal socialists who don't believe in capitalism. You think Bush started this with Microsoft? Why do you think Gates has switched to the right? Bubba and his henchmen decided that just because Gates made a product that was a "better mousetrap" than anyone elses, didn't mean he could reap all of the profits of the market. That would be too capitalist- you, know, like free enterprise. That's the problem with liberals- when they decide everyone has to be equal (regardless of how smart or hard any of us work), they always do so by lowering everyone to the lowest common denominator.
While I agree in part with this statement, I often feel that ANY president gets waaaay to much credit. While I would love to blame many of our issue's on one person or another, the problems are often far more complicated than that.

Once again, don't lay the war on drugs on Bush or his ilk. Maybe you forgot that President Billy Klifford fired Jocelyn Elders as Surgeon General because she was advocating the legalization of drugs, which he staunchly refused to do.
Billy has as much to do with this WAR on DRUGS as GDubJr. VERY little. Both of these guys just sat back and let the cash roll in. My issue here is more with the BUSH family than GDudJr. himself. However... the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Yes, its because of money, from both sides. (lawmakers AND criminals) Neither side wants to see their cash crop go legal and end the trade.
There are many more sides to this WAR than 2. Let's not forget those in medical need, or the American Farmer who knows HEMP could save his Farm, etc. While you are right in your statement, the majority is stuck in the middle of the Criminal cash "rock" and the Political cash "hard place".

Personally, (although I'd never use drugs, including pot) I would like to see drugs legalized. A big bunch would remove themselves from the gene pool by overdosing and other effects, and the majority of the remaining dopers would pay taxes, get pharmecutical grade stuff, it would be more regulated, the crime related the trade would evaporate over night, (the lucrative business that powers the gangs would dry up, most importantly) and we'd open lots of cell space for molesters, rapists, murderers, and other violent criminals.
Couldn't agree more and chances are we are not alone in this!

Yeah, the truth in sentencing laws have flaws, but once again, that happened on Bubba's watch, so don't lay it all on Bush.
Not on Bush anymore than any other, but then... my issue really is why hasn't anyone (regardless of party) fixed anything. GREED! :twak

I know you love your dad, and I've already said that I'd legalize dope tommorow if I was king, but still, your dad was a grown man and took a calculated risk- and got caught. Did he not know the consequences?
He did, very much so... and he's paying. You won't hear him bitch about it.
Infact, he see's this all as a legal battle. He has been willing to take the risks and take them as an opportunity to try and change the laws. He's been to the 9th Circut court of appeals on multiple issue's. Some he made progress on and others he did not. But he keeps fighting. (You could probably find some of his rulings. HEMP NEWS (http://www.crrh.org/hempnews/hn_18.html#driveways%20off))
Problem is... as his son, and the father of his Grandson he has yet to meet, I take it all very personally. And YES, he will be getting a seriouse ass-chewing Son to Father style if he tries to break this law again. I'd much rahter leave the freedom fighting to someone else and have him relax and be a Grandpa.

Pepe, I'm sorry you lost your job. Its true that it happens to decent, hard working folks sometimes too. My comment was directed at the liberal propagandist rhetoric in that post, and I was referring to the millions of lazy ass folks that lose a job (or never really maintain any constant, as far as employment) then sit on their asses drawing unemployment rather than take ANY job temporarily until they find something better.
BEFORE I got into my present line of work, I got laid off from another job. I had a wife to support, so I wasn't too proud to take what I could get until I found what I wanted. As a grown man and a Marine Corps vet, I took a job working at a damned car wash that my brother managed (washing the cars, not a paper/clerical job) and worked nights at Friggin' Mcdonalds. Meanwhile, my friends were too good for that, and collected unemployment. That's what I'm talking about.
That I understand, but please CLARIFY when making comments like that. Times like these can make bums out of the hardest of workers.

And Pepe, what the hell does my profession have to do with it?
I don't think I'm better than you because I'm a cop. I consider myself a PART of MY community, and I do the job with that attitude. I'm sorry I offended you, you aren't the sort that I was targeting with that comment.
I'm glad for you and your family that you got back on your feet.
Thank you and again I would say "I do appreciate the risks you guys put yourselves in regularly for the public good and a meager paycheck."
Thanks for all you do and for not taking my post in a way... well, that I could not have tried to make ammends with. You have my gratitude and now my respect... whether we agree or not. :goodfinge

:thumbup :drinkbud :rockon

PaulT

02-21-2004, 08:56 AM

They sure as hell were, but the circumstances that must happen (UN approval) before any action would take place, were ignored by the current president.

This thinking, to me, is scarier than anything Bush has done.
I for one don't think the US needs to sit back and let the UN decide our forgien (or domestic) policies.

The first Gulf war never ended, there was never a surrender or end to the war, only an end to the fighting. Saddam did not live up to his end of the barging.

Dirtdigger

02-21-2004, 09:17 AM

BroncoBob... when your right your right man!
Fog... you the man!
DirtDigger... sure, rub it in!
:thumbup :drinkbud :rockon

Pepe , no rub intended , you know my views on this subject . Just trying to lighten things up.....................................at your expence of coarse ! :thumbup j/k

ValkariaKid

02-21-2004, 01:23 PM

Im curious ValkariaKid what conservative Views do you have?
-No government handouts!
Everybody has to pull their own weight, pay their taxes, and die like the rest of us.

-No affirmative action!
Everyone should have the same chances, and requirements for whatever job they're seeking. It should be a completely level playing field so the bast man wins.

-Government spending
This one's a biggie. I believe in trimming all the fat out of our government. No $10,000 hammers, $9000 toilet seats, etc. Reduce the amount of money towards BS programs that the government has no business being involved in or eliminate them completely. Make each governing entity responsible for making, and meeting their budgets! (GW screwed us on this one)

-Less/smaller government
Refine, and fine tune the current processes and law we already have without perpetually adding more just because the existing one isn't doing it's job satisfactorily. Our government should be held accountable for their performance. Creating new agencies, hiring more people, and making new laws only make things worse.

Being a conservative means not only having conservative views, it also means being conservative in taking action! Just because you strongly feel one way about something doesn't mean that you have to act upon it! A true conservative looks at all the options, weighs the facts, and most importantly determines whether or not any action is really necessary in the first place. (another 'F' for GW)

Well those are just a few of my conservative views since you asked.

One thing people have to realize is that nobody fits perfectly into a label. Calling someone a Liberal, socialist, neocon, .... only draws a deeper line between us. It's not just "either you're black or you're white". There's a whole world of grey between that almost EVERYONE fits in to.
I've never met a single person that fit perfectly into any one of those labels veryone likes to throw around so damn much. You guys make it sound like it's our side verses your side when in reality is that we're all on the same side. We just have different views about certain things.

My mind is still open about who I'll vote for in november. I haven't heard anything about what either candidate will do if elected. even if I did it doesn't mean to matter much anyway because they'll eventually cave in, and deviate from what they said they'd do before their term is up.

1911copper

02-21-2004, 02:16 PM

First... my apologies to ALL OF F.S.B. for going off like that. It was uncalled for. I've been working until 5am for the last few days and my emotions are totally wacked with all the recent ups and down x little sleep.
My sincere apologies... to all and especially you 1911copper!

No problem. I'm glad we've reconciled, :beer I've always respected you based on your posts, your rig, and your "hard-coreness" (yeah, I know, its not a word) when it comes to off-roading.

I understand why you took it personally, and when something like that happens to a loved one, like a father, it becomes personal too.

I'll try not to be too offensive in my political posts, but just understand- I'm not shy about the fact that I'm a right-wing-conservative-Republican- and no, the Republicans are not perfect, but to me, they beat the shit out of the alternatives.
:twak

oregonbronco

02-21-2004, 03:03 PM

-No government handouts!
Everybody has to pull their own weight, pay their taxes, and die like the rest of us.

-No affirmative action!
Everyone should have the same chances, and requirements for whatever job they're seeking. It should be a completely level playing field so the bast man wins.

-Government spending
This one's a biggie. I believe in trimming all the fat out of our government. No $10,000 hammers, $9000 toilet seats, etc. Reduce the amount of money towards BS programs that the government has no business being involved in or eliminate them completely. Make each governing entity responsible for making, and meeting their budgets! (GW screwed us on this one)

-Less/smaller government
Refine, and fine tune the current processes and law we already have without perpetually adding more just because the existing one isn't doing it's job satisfactorily. Our government should be held accountable for their performance. Creating new agencies, hiring more people, and making new laws only make things worse.

Being a conservative means not only having conservative views, it also means being conservative in taking action! Just because you strongly feel one way about something doesn't mean that you have to act upon it! A true conservative looks at all the options, weighs the facts, and most importantly determines whether or not any action is really necessary in the first place. (another 'F' for GW)

Well those are just a few of my conservative views since you asked.

One thing people have to realize is that nobody fits perfectly into a label. Calling someone a Liberal, socialist, neocon, .... only draws a deeper line between us. It's not just "either you're black or you're white". There's a whole world of grey between that almost EVERYONE fits in to.
I've never met a single person that fit perfectly into any one of those labels veryone likes to throw around so damn much. You guys make it sound like it's our side verses your side when in reality is that we're all on the same side. We just have different views about certain things.

My mind is still open about who I'll vote for in november. I haven't heard anything about what either candidate will do if elected. even if I did it doesn't mean to matter much anyway because they'll eventually cave in, and deviate from what they said they'd do before their term is up.

Ya Affirmative Action is the biggest BS in the world

I agree Bush spends on some useful stuff, I like small governemnt, but you have to way whats most important to you, and to me the world is very dangerous, so the war on terriosism, is #1 by far followed by tax cuts, so i think for you to figure out whos your candidate you have to weigh out whats your main issues you care about

1911copper

02-21-2004, 03:05 PM

Valkaria- I'll try to respond to your posts as I get time- but I'm pretty busy lately.

I bet you guys would still vote for Bush if he and Bin Ladden were one in the same!

1911... from your responses to the dissection of my post it looks like you would be more at home in Germany 1939.

Typical liberal stand-by responses. Sorry, but the liberal left is the side that want big juggernaut government, "taking care" of the people from cradle to grave. They are the ones that want a "big brother" type government that forces everyone into being "equal" They are the ones who want to "redistribute" the wealth. They want as many people as dependant upon the government as possible, because that gives them a guaranteed voter base. The entitlement faction is always going to vote for the left to keep their hand-outs coming. The left is still mired in the belief that socialism works, refusing to learn from history that it has always been a dismal failure. Maybe they'd be happier in Red China, a socialist "utopia".
As a conservative, what I want most from my government, is to be left alone.

I cut and pasted that off of another board. Just like the first post was and 1911's post was. ....and your point is?

My second post was cut and paste- my blow by blow retort to your C&P was my own.

Before I get labled as a "Liberal", "Leftist", "Democrat" or any other little box you neocons like to put naysayers in let me beat you to it and define myself.
I'm a centrist with some liberal, and conservative beliefs. I'm registered as an independant. I don't feel that my beliefs are justly represented by the other common choices. When I vote I don't care what party the candidate belongs to just as long as I think "he's the man for the job". I won't give in, and toe the party line like so many sheeple do.

Whine, whine, whine. Why is it that the liberals are the only ones who start whining when you call a spade a spade? Conservatives never blink when you call them conservatives. The reason? Most libs don't think of themselves as libs, they see themselves as reasonable, while their views are blatantly liberal to the rest of us. Furthermore, they don't like the "liberal" label because it points to their extremism, and they want the "reasonable" and "common sense" image. Libs are always running from the label, "liberal". Why is that? Could it be subconscious knowledge that this is not a good thing?

If you believe in all the points made in that post that you C&Ped, then, whether you know it or not, you ARE a hard-leftwinger. If you don't buy all of that tripe, you shouldn't have posted it.

They are in essence a little boys club that have only their own political, economic, religious and personal agendas in mind

And just how does this differentiate them from any other political party/administration?

More reasons:
Bush intended to invade Iraq long before 9-11. He set the stage for it, and all he needed was a 'cataclysmic' event to take place so he can pull his trigger. 9-11 was that event.

That's amusing, because its usually the left that tries to portray US as the paranoid, conspiracy theorist types. The problem is that you cannot substantiate this claim, let alone prove it. Its simply the harshest spin the left could fabricate to portray Bush in the worst light.

He lied to us when he and his cronies said that Iraq was an imminent threat to us. He sold us his bill of goods, and we bought it. Hook, line and sinker.

Wasn't it Rumsfeld who said "We know he (Saddam) has WMD's, and we know exactly where they are"?

Well apparently that was too a lie. We still haven't found them.
The intelligence on the ground said they didn't exist.
We DO know that he had them.
That's obvious, and undisputable, but if Rummy said he knows that he still has them, and knows where they are why haven't we found them?
Where are they?

More importantly whatever happened to Bush pledging to make bringing the "evil-doers" responsible for the 9-11 attacks to justice this nation's top priority?
Wouldn't you think that we'd have a much better chance of doing that if we used the 300,000 troops that are now in Iraq for finding OBL?

Bush himself admitted that there wasn't a direct link between Al-Queda(sp?) and Iraq.

Hussien was a madman with a lot of power in an already very unstable atmosphere in the middle east. He was willing to enslave, torture and murder his own people to stay in power- he used biological weapons on his own- what he was willing to do to outsiders is anyone's guess. He demonstrated a progression to willingness to invade another country-Kuwait, for what appeared to be nothing more than domination and conquest.
Even if US intelligence was wrong about WMDs, critics are taking the position of outright lies and fabrication by the Bush administration. I hardly believe this.
All politicians hype their policies and programs. So do the rest of us for that matter. Did you want GWB to go to war over something he did not passionately feel was a threat? What more did we need, a signed statement from Saddam saying "I have WMD's and I hate Americans and if I can find a way to kill Americans with my WMD's I will?"
Saddam had chemical weapons and was pursuing biological and nuclear capabilities. The question is, what did he do with them since their existence was documented by the U.N. inspection teams years ago? The U.S. has already uncovered substantial evidence that the Iraqis went to elaborate lengths to hide them. I think over time we will find them, or figure out where they went.
I personally believe the intelligence was correct, and that Hussien either destroyed, removed (possibly to Syria) or otherwise hid his WMDs, most likely chemical/biological weapons, when he saw the storm coming.
Did you expect him to leave his nerve gas lying out on the coffee table?
The bottom line is the United States cannot afford to allow a murderer and tyrant to threaten our vital strategic interests in the Middle East. By paying money to suicide bombers and by presenting a military threat to our vital oil suppliers Saddam Hussein represented a clear and present danger to the security of the United States. The fact that we had many informants as well as intercepted signals intelligence indicating that he still had and was continuing to develop weapons of mass destruction was just icing on the cake.
Now if it turns out that those intercepted signals were the direct result of yes-men trying to please Saddam by telling him what he wanted to hear (that the weapons programs were going well yada yada yada), and that there weren't the number and amount of weapons that we believed, does that mean we need to improve our intelligence? Yes. Does it mean Bush should be crucified for relying on what he believed (and what Clinton and the rest of the world believed as well) was reliable intelligence? That Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and a program for Nuclear weapons development? No. Does it mean that our war to remove this tyrant from power and secure our vital interests (in the form of Israel and the oil supplies necessary to our way of life in the Middle East) is any less justifiable? No.
The facts remain that our war is a just one. That the United States and the rest of the world are safer with Saddam removed from power. That the 540 some odd American deaths (as I heard on the radio recently) since the announcement of the end of major hostilities, while tragic, represent little more than a drop in the bucket compared to almost any other conflict in human history that was worth fighting. That other tyrants and thugs have taken notice of our willingness to act decisively in our efforts to safeguard our national interests, and that we are more than willing to act in our national interests in spite of whining and sniffling from the UN and a few other assorted European countries.
So, I believe that, yes, the war was started to finish a job that Bush senior SHOULD HAVE FINISHED, primarily to rid the world of Hussien's regime for US, as well as world safety, and that secondarily, the Iraqi people will ultimately benefit in the altruistic sense if we can establish and stabilize an Iraqi democracy.

We're there because Sadamm tried to kill his daddy.

The nation's top priority took a back seat to his personal vengance against SH.

That's more leftist spin, and its an outrageous, unrealistic accusation. This scenario would make GW one of the most evil men in history, willing to let our boys die for a personal vendetta. I don't buy it for a minute. Neither do our boys. The respect that the troops have for GW is a stark contrast for what they felt for the previous administration.

Speaking of dead American soldiers have you ever wondered why you don't see them being carried off the transport planes returning from Ramstein in their caskets with flags draped over them while a military honor guard salutes their fallen brothers? Well it's because our wondersul president banned any type of ceremony, or media coverage of it.
What a way to salute the very people that carried out his revenge.
If you ask me it's pretty ****in' sad.

This country is not brimming with two generations of kids that grew up not knowing any form of sacrifice or need. The US is the Disneyland of the world, and these kids think freedom is free, and there is no evil in the world. When we went to war, 85% of the public was behind it. Now support has dropped to around 50%. Why? Our troops started getting killed, and the "me" generation recoiled in horror as they discovered that this wasn't a video game, and that men were dying and killing, and using real bullets.
I'm quite sure GW is aware of this segment of the population, and I think he's kept media coverage of/and or the ceremonies under cover because he knows such graphic depiction would really set off the Disney types, damaging morale.

Andy351

02-21-2004, 04:47 PM

long live fascism

GearHead

02-21-2004, 05:39 PM

long live fascism

take it easy there, any more comments like that and you might be labeled as a long haired hippy, liberal loving communist, gay loving homo humping fudge packing sinner. not to mention your an anti-american, evil devil worshiping coldslaw eating uneducated redneck. might even accuse you of driving a chevy if you keep making comments like that.
just dont want you to go misunderstood. dont rock the boat buddy and everything will be okay.

jerry 1 a b

02-21-2004, 06:23 PM

This scenario would make GW one of the most evil men in history, willing to let our boys die for a personal vendetta. I don't buy it for a minute. Neither do our boys. The respect that the troops have for GW is a stark contrast for what they felt for the previous administration.

Amen to that! At least that's my point of veiw, as well as everyone that I served with who gave a damn.

Dirtdigger

02-21-2004, 07:19 PM

long live fascism

Noun : fascism 'fashizum 1.A political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)............yep pretty much what we got now .

1911copper

02-22-2004, 12:30 AM

Noun : fascism 'fashizum 1.A political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)............yep pretty much what we got now .

Nope, not remotely.

The fact that you are posting such a thing and are free to do so renders your very post invalid.

1911copper

02-22-2004, 12:43 AM

They sure as hell were, but the circumstances that must happen (UN approval) before any action would take place, were ignored by the current president.

You have a selective memory. Klinton did the same thing in Bosnia, Bush has no corner on the market.

1911copper

02-22-2004, 12:51 AM

-Government spending
This one's a biggie. I believe in trimming all the fat out of our government. No $10,000 hammers, $9000 toilet seats, etc. Reduce the amount of money towards BS programs that the government has no business being involved in or eliminate them completely. Make each governing entity responsible for making, and meeting their budgets! (GW screwed us on this one)

Oh yeah- there was no government overspending before that damned Bush- the democrats never adhered the the "tax and spend" formula.

Being a conservative means not only having conservative views, it also means being conservative in taking action! Just because you strongly feel one way about something doesn't mean that you have to act upon it! A true conservative looks at all the options, weighs the facts, and most importantly determines whether or not any action is really necessary in the first place. (another 'F' for GW)

Sure, that's a logical way to approach things, but some situations require fast action. Obviously the terrorist/Saddam situation can't be blamed on the left, but a big part of the Iraq problem was due to Clinton's failure to take any action and enforce the inspections. (not to mention not receiving OBL's head on the platter that was offerred to him) Saddam got used to the US not meaning what it said, and that was a big part of the problem.

1911copper

02-22-2004, 12:55 AM

I'd like to post something a friend of mine wrote upon the capture of Saddam that has relevance:
It is a great day for the people of Iraq and the citizens of the world in addition to the members and families of our Armed Forces.
This event has significance on so many levels.
I recently spent 5 months in Iraq and took part in the attack on Baghdad during Operation Iraqi Freedom. It is hard to explain how much of a grip on the country that Saddam had. That makes this capture so incredibly important.
When we first crossed the border into Iraq and seized the Rumaliah oil fields, the people gave us mixed reactions to our presence. Most were happy we were there, but a majority reminded us of the trouble we caused when we pulled out after the last war. The Iraqis in the south were very afraid that we wouldn't finish the mission and were afraid that Saddam would come back. With reservations, they tolerated our presence.
As we progressed up route 7 through Nasiriyah, As Swamah, and Al Hayy, the Iraqis were a bit more supportive of our presence. In each village that we stopped, we were given orders to take down any murals, posters, or likenesses of Saddam - but we were also ordered to encourage the village elders to do the destruction of those images. In these villages, the locals were happy for us to take down the images, but they were too afraid to do it themselves. The younger Iraqis were deathly afraid of "uncle Saddam" and that he would be back and know that they defaced his image. 35 years of terror and brutality certainly had a hold on the local populace. They were also afraid of informants and Baath party officials in their village collecting information on their activities.
Even when we were in Baghdad when the regime fell, the jubilation and rejoicing went full force - but had a small bit of hesitation due to the "possibility" of Saddam returning.
Now, that possibility is over!!! We have accomplished our mission. I lost two Marines in the battle for Nasiriyah and while this won't bring them back, it does lend purpose to their actions.
Some in our media and our government will still not be satisfied and cling to the weapons of mass destruction issue. They will claim that we still haven't accomplished our mission. I am very dissapointed by this view and opinion. I saw the terror and fear in the eyes and hearts of the Iraqis, I saw the mass graves that held tens of thousands of Iraqi citizens that had fallen out of favor with the government, I saw the opulent palaces that sat in the middle of single story mud huts, I saw the results of a regime that raped a country (literally and figuratively). I actually got reprimanded for answering a news reporter who pointedly implied that we failed when we didn't find weapons of mass destruction when I said "We removed the Baath party who terrorized, raped, and killed tens of thousands.... what more of a weapons of mass destruction do you want!"
The news reports today have been focusing heavily on the Generals who carried out this mission. They certainly did a great job in bringing this search to an end. However, I will push my opinion that it is the troops on the ground who have been doing all of the hard work... They are the ones who have been sniped and bombed on a daily basis. They are the ones who have been sweating, bleeding, screaming, shooting, and crying every day and night throughout this search. My hat is off to the soldiers of the 4th Infantry Division who dug that cowardly son of a bitch out of his dirty hole!!!!!!
God bless all of you this holiday season. God be with the souls of the men and women we lost in this fight. Watch over the men and women who are standing watch tonight and be with their families while they are gone.
--In memory of my two fallen brothers: Sergeant Michael Bitz and Corporal Kemaphoom Chanawongse - Semper Fidelis boys we all miss you and love you.

1911copper

02-22-2004, 01:20 AM

Anyone considering voting for Kerry should look at this:

http://www.azconservative.org/Erickson.htm

jerry 1 a b

02-22-2004, 01:34 AM

Anyone considering voting for Kerry should look at this:

http://www.azconservative.org/Erickson.htm

That's a so sad that it sickens me. I can forgive him for being a young jackass, and hope that he's learned a few things since then, but the bottom line is that I don't want someone like that being my leader.

jerry 1 a b

02-22-2004, 01:42 AM

Sure, that's a logical way to approach things, but some situations require fast action. Obviously the terrorist/Saddam situation can't be blamed on the left, but a big part of the Iraq problem was due to Clinton's failure to take any action and enforce the inspections. (not to mention not receiving OBL's head on the platter that was offerred to him) Saddam got used to the US not meaning what it said, and that was a big part of the problem.

You have to give him some credit. There were several attempts by us to assasinate* Saddam even during Clinton's time. And there were attempts to send inspectors before, but they were harrassed and discouraged the entire time they were there. That can't be blamed on Clinton. On top of all of that, he was busy trying to defend himself with all of the scandle. He's only human. It's like I've already said here on one of these many pages... Everyone of our Presidents have had their good moments as well as bad. We can't be so judgmental of everything they do wrong, yet not recognize things that they did right. I have no respect for men like Bill Clinton, but I don't want the job of the President.

jerry 1 a b

02-22-2004, 01:51 AM

Some in our media and our government will still not be satisfied and cling to the weapons of mass destruction issue. They will claim that we still haven't accomplished our mission. I am very dissapointed by this view and opinion. I saw the terror and fear in the eyes and hearts of the Iraqis, I saw the mass graves that held tens of thousands of Iraqi citizens that had fallen out of favor with the government, I saw the opulent palaces that sat in the middle of single story mud huts, I saw the results of a regime that raped a country (literally and figuratively). I actually got reprimanded for answering a news reporter who pointedly implied that we failed when we didn't find weapons of mass destruction when I said "We removed the Baath party who terrorized, raped, and killed tens of thousands.... what more of a weapons of mass destruction do you want!"

It is so sad. I was in a discussion about this just the other day. Everyone is waiting for the smoking gun. Well, they new we were coming, and had ample time to dismantle and hide any research and work, not to mention that if there are any WMD the chances of us ever finding them are slim anyway. My basic argument was this: "Everyone is looking for a smoking gun, but you'll never find it if it has been dismantled and thrown into the river before you get onto the scene, and it will definantley not be smoking anymore."

Dirtdigger

02-22-2004, 03:54 AM

Nope, not remotely.

The fact that you are posting such a thing and are free to do so renders your very post invalid.

Rant on..............

Ever heard of sarcasm ?

Let me set one thing straight I don't like Kerry , but on the other hand I despise Bush . He runs things like this country is his own personal kingdom. Tell me , besides cutting taxes ( which is a total joke to the average guy ) . what has he done for us ............not a fawking thing . Do I sound selfish when I say that , well maybe I am . Me , you and our children will be paying for his foreigne and domestic policies for years to come .

I have to say this , in all my years watching politics I have never seen the total disdain of any persons views like I have seen in this election . If you don't like this president , you are a traitor , liberal or unAmerican . None of which I am . I support our troops to the highest.......but not the decision that led them to war . We send our kids to free a country ......they send them back in body bags . We send 100 billion to rebuild a country.........and yet we can not figure out how to feed and shelter the many here that have nothing . We can fight a war on terrorism ...........but not the war on drugs that has devastated our towns and cities .

No , I am not a liberal , just a realist . I think we need the death penalty . I think everyone has a right to bear arms ( within reason ) . I think pot should be legalized and sold like alcohol and tobacco . I feel that gay marriage is wrong ( although two consenting adults should be able to do what ever they want if it is legal ) . I personally am against abortion , but as long as it is a constitutional right , you have to abide by the law .

I feel we need a strong military to protect us , and do whatever it takes to neutralize the likes of Osama . NOT to play policeman to the world every time some two bit dictator shakes his fist at us . No matter if ya like it or not the whole world is not going to play by our rules , nor should they have to . The United States is only 200 years old as compared to some of these countries that have been around for a thousand years . Does anyone really think Iraq will change . Yes most people are happy that Saddam is gone . but they want us gone too . Any government that we help install will not be considered legitimate by the Iraqi people . By all accounts , anywhere from 6000 to ten thousand Iraqi"s died during this war ,soldier and civilians . How many lives has that effected there ? These are sons , daughters ,fathers and mothers . It is easy to say Saddam was killing his own people and we are the saviors...........that justifies the war for the administration . The truth is Saddam was an Iraqi that needed to be delt with by the Iraqi people . We are now perceived as the invaders and occupiers of Iraq . There will never be peace as long as we are there . So give them their country and bring our guys home . War should ALWAYS be the very last resort......not the first ! If any of you war lovers think different go Here (http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/iraq/casualties/) . Then thank your God that it wasn't one of your family members .

Rant off

jerry 1 a b

02-22-2004, 05:31 AM

Before I start, let me say that this isn't aimed at you as a flame Dirtdgger. You are one of the people on here that I like most, so please don't take offense, or at the least be angry with what I'm aout to say.

Rant on..............

War should ALWAYS be the very last resort......not the first ! If any of you war lovers think different go Here (http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/iraq/casualties/) . Then thank your God that it wasn't one of your family members .

Rant off

Hey, this is just a lil debate, lets all calm down a little. I take offense to being called a war lover. Just because you don't feel that war was justified doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing to do. we've been playing big brother since 1895.

Here's a quick history lesson:

"When the Cuban revolt flared up [...] in 1895, the Madrid government again failed to implement reforms. Instead, it sent General Weyler, dubbed the 'butcher' by the American press, with 50,000 troops to quell the disturbance. When Weyler began herding rural Cubans into reconcentration camps, Americans were outraged. An outpouring of sympathy swept the nation, especially as sensationalist reports of horrible suffering and the deaths of thousands in the camps filled American newspapers. 'The old, the young, the weak, the crippled,' wrote the New York World, 'all are butchered without mercy.' The Cuban struggle appealed to a country convinced of its role as protector of the weak and defender of the right of self-determination. [...] Motivated in part by genuine humanitarian concern and a sense of duty, many Americans held rallies to raise money and food for famine relief, called for land reform, and for some, armed intervention. [...]neither Cleveland nor McKinley wanted war. [...] conditions worsened [...] and the American press kept harping on the plight of the Cuban people. McKinley, eager not to upset recovery from the depression, skillfully resisted war pressures. But he could not control Spanish misrule or Cuban aspirations for freedom. The fundamental causes of the war [...] were seemingly unstoppable. Events early in 1898 sparked the outbreak of hostilities. Rioting in Havana intensified both Spanish repression and American outrage. As pressure for war increased, a letter from the Spanish minister to the United States, Dupuy de Lome, calling McKinley a 'weak,' hypocritical politician, was intercepted and made public. Americans fumed. [...] A second event was more serious. [...] sinking of the Maine [...] The public outcry over the Maine drowned out McKinley's efforts to avoid war. [...] But the Spanish refused to grant full independence to the Cubans, and McKinley finally acted" (The American People, vol. 2 pages 685-687).

History repeats itself, and I sure as hell don't mind stepping in to help another out. Sure, many times we should just stay out of it, but many times if we ignore it worse things will happen. Just think what may have happened if we didn't respond to 9/11. If I were to walk up to you and break your nose, would you fight back? I'll bet you would, but if not it's cool, I'll just break something else. (I don't mean this literally, just an example)
On top of that, we went there to do a job that was deamed very neccessary* at the time, and then we quit before the job was done. The war never ended, and I feel that we needed to go clean up the mess and finish what we started.

Every service member knows that a risk is involved when they VOLUNTEER for the job. Are they ready to die? No. Are their parents and loved ones going to accept the loss? Prolly not. (especially if we don't finish the job, which will leave them feeling that it was all for nothing) No one wants to loose someone, but I'd rather go fighting for someone that can't fight for themselves, than in a car accident or maybe old age. I think the relatively small number of losses we've had is well worth the cost so far. That doesn't make me a war lover though.

And war was definantley not the first resort in this case. And if you are one of the those that is looking for the smoking gun... read my previous post.

One more thing:
"For those who fought for it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know."

:usa
:beer

Dirtdigger

02-22-2004, 10:44 AM

Ok , I'll give ya war lover might be too strong a word . But war was not the very last resort in this case . With a little more patience , Saddam would have hung himself . I relies he was playing a game , but he was always going to come out the loser . I have said it before , I am old enough to remember the endless stream of caskets coming home from Viet Nam . Not saying this will be another Nam , but it is a war with NO end in sight , or at least no a good end . And just like Viet Nam , I don't think this war will have the desired out come that the administration hopes for .

As far as volunteers serving...............I think if An American service man is going to lose his life , the let it be for the defense of his country . This is why the military was formed . Not to go bomb some third world dictator out of existence .

As far as we know , Alkita sp? were involved in the 9-11 attacks.for this I say take it to them . Saddam just did not pose a intimate threat .

GearHead

02-22-2004, 10:51 AM

Dirtdigger

02-22-2004, 01:46 PM

You have to give him some credit. There were several attempts by us to assasinate* Saddam even during Clinton's time. And there were attempts to send inspectors before, but they were harrassed and discouraged the entire time they were there. That can't be blamed on Clinton. On top of all of that, he was busy trying to defend himself with all of the scandle. He's only human. It's like I've already said here on one of these many pages... Everyone of our Presidents have had their good moments as well as bad. We can't be so judgmental of everything they do wrong, yet not recognize things that they did right. I have no respect for men like Bill Clinton, but I don't want the job of the President.

Yes we should be very judgemental . The president by all accounts is the leader of the last super power in the world . The decisions he makes effects the whole world . Whether it be militarily or economically . He is suppose to have the best advisor's around him at all times . This president just keeps cranking out bad decisions one after another .

The economy sucks , period . The ones that say it is good are obviously the ones with jobs . The question is how long will you have it ? Will it be out sourced ? Will you lose it due to cut backs . Municipalities around the country are cutting back on services (police ,fire ,and others ) because they have no funding . Schools are cutting services because they can't afford an unfunded mandate that Bush has put in place . ( no child left behind ). We can not keep going at this pace . America Has to come first or we'll be asking China and India for economic aid one day .

Like I said before , I don't like Kerry . If he wins it will not be because he is the best canidate............but because GWB has given our country away . Even republicans are starting to distance themselves from Bush . Just recently passed was a highway funding bill that calls for the spending of around 350 billion . Bush threatened to veto it . But the republicans and democrats stuck together and have to votes to over ride a veto . While at the best it is a lot of pork barrel spending , it will put people to work . And that my friends is the kinda thing that will win this election . Remember those words from the George Sr.'s administration IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID . Junior just has not learned .

Read this .The Chicago Tribune is probably one of the most conservative newspapers in the country .In today's paper . (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-0402220495feb22,1,6263819.story?coll=chi-news-hed) This is the kinda thing happening all over the country .

metalhead

02-22-2004, 02:33 PM

Yup I remember my senior year in highschool which was last year my industrial materials teacher told the class that next year which is now this year that funds are very low and that students might not have materials in classes such as this one or might not even have the class at all. I think that as a nation we are F-ucked. All Shrub is doing is blowing our money on his F-ucking military instead of education which is where the money should be going. Besides what did we accomplish by capturing saddam? The way he treated his people was none of our business in the first place.

1911copper

02-22-2004, 02:51 PM

Dirtdigger:
Since you have made it clear now what your age is (remembering the Vietnam War) it is more understandable that you would hold such a position. (Its hard to tell who you are dealing with on these boards) But just remember something, this is not a war like Vietnam. Our military was kept on a leash, and kept on the defensive and vulnerable in Vietnam. Not so this time around. This time, the politicians are letting our military do its job the way it was trained to do it.
America learned from WWI and WWII about the consequences of an isolationist approach; what starts out small somewhere around the globe can sometimes trigger conflicts which, in the end, grow to immense proportions. Given the humble beginnings of Adolf Hitler, and his rise in power to bringing Germany to its peak in WWII of being possibly most powerful military force in the world, you can see what I'm speaking of.
After learning the ills of isolationsism, America has since adopted a policy of quelling percieved threats while they are still afar and still meager; a sort of militaristic "nipping of the bud" it you will. Not since the Revolutionary War has American fought a foreign enemy upon the American mainland soil, that the goal is to keep it that way, not wait until its knocking at our door.

This president just keeps cranking out bad decisions one after another .

Well, that's all subjective, isn't it? Not everyone agrees with you. I have had many disappointments in him since he took office, but none of them are for the same reasons you or any other Bush detractors have posted on this board. Yet, I will still vote for him on this next go around, strictly as the lesser of two evils.

The economy sucks , period . The ones that say it is good are obviously the ones with jobs . The question is how long will you have it ? Will it be out sourced ? Will you lose it due to cut backs . Municipalities around the country are cutting back on services (police ,fire ,and others ) because they have no funding . Schools are cutting services because they can't afford an unfunded mandate that Bush has put in place . ( no child left behind ). We can not keep going at this pace . America Has to come first or we'll be asking China and India for economic aid one day .

The economy is suffering from a number of causes beyond the President's control. (that we always think the president has a magic wand to steer the economy is amusing, regardless of who is in office) The market was riding a high for years from the boost it received by the advent of the internet and all of the new opportunities and avenues that it brought with it. It could only go on riding that high for so long before a crash was eminant. If you're honest with yourself, you'll be able to see that it was already on the down curve in the last couple of quarters of Clinton's administration. Then came 9/11, and the stockmarkets nose dived as the world waited in uneasiness to see what was going to happen. (not to mention how the temporary total shutdown of the airline industry effected industry workers, support industries, and business in general- we're talking billions here)
Furthermore, the economy has already hit bottom and has stabilized, and is now on the rise. The stockmarket is consistantly going up. Don't expect the economy to skyrocket back up to that artificial high resultant from the internet.

Read this .The Chicago Tribune is probably one of the most conservative newspapers in the country .In today's paper . (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-0402220495feb22,1,6263819.story?coll=chi-news-hed) This is the kinda thing happening all over the country .

I grew up in Chicago, Chicago is not conservative by any stretch of the imagination, (Chicago is where the Constitution is "void where prohibited"- i.e.the 2nd amendment) nor is its tribune.
There is a reason I left all friends and family and moved 800 miles away.

Dirtdigger

02-22-2004, 03:27 PM

Dirtdigger:
Since you have made it clear now what your age is (remembering the Vietnam War) it is more understandle that you would hold such a position. (Its hard to tell who you are dealing with on these boards) But just remember something, this is not a war like Vietnam. Our military was kept on a leash, and kept on the defensive and vulnerable in Vietnam. Not so this time around. This time, the politicians are letting our military do its job the way it was trained to do it.
America learned from WWI and WWII about the consequences of an isolationist approach; what starts out small somewhere around the globe can sometimes trigger conflicts which, in the end, grow to immense proportions. Given the humble beginnings of Adolf Hitler, and his rise in power to bringing Germany to its peak in WWII of being possibly most powerful military force in the world, you can see what I'm speaking of.
After learning the ills of isolationsism, America has since adopted a policy of quelling percieved threats while they are still afar and still meager; a sort of militaristic "nipping of the bud" it you will. Not since the Revolutionary War has American fought a foreign enemy upon the American mainland soil, that the goal is to keep it that way, not wait until its knocking at our door.

Well, that's all subjective, isn't it? Not everyone agrees with you. I have had many disappointments in him since he took office, but none of them are for the same reasons you or any other Bush detractors have posted on this board. Yet, I will still vote for him on this next go around, strictly as the lesser of two evils.

The economy is suffering from a number of causes beyond the President's control. (that we always think the president has a magic wand to steer the economy is amusing, regardless of who is in office) The market was riding a high for years from the boost it received by the advent of the internet and all of the new opportunities and avenues that it brought with it. It could only go on riding that high for so long before a crash was eminant. If you're honest with yourself, you'll be able to see that it was already on the down curve in the last couple of quarters of Clinton's administration. Then came 9/11, and the stockmarkets nose dived as the world waited in uneasiness to see what was going to happen. (not to mention how the temporary total shutdown of the airline industry effected industry workers, support industries, and business in general- we're talking billions here)
Furthermore, the economy has already hit bottom and has stabilized, and is now on the rise. The stockmarket is consistantly going up. Don't expect the economy to skyrocket back up to that artificial high resultant from the internet.

I grew up in Chicago, Chicago is not conservative by any stretch of the imagination, (Chicago is where the Constitution is "void where prohibited"- i.e.the 2nd amendment) nor is its tribune.
There is a reason I left all friends and family and moved 800 miles away.

Yes I am an old fawk but every war we have fought sénce wwII has not met a shit to us as far as security . We fought in Korea look what it got us . We fought in Nam ,Bosnia ,Afghanistan , Iraq , still no peace . I don't think any of these countries has the real capabilities to launch an invasion upon or shores . As far as terrorist , there will always be some crazy , foreign or domestic ( Oklahoma City ) that will try to disrupt this country . We just keep sticking our nose in other peoples business just to get it broken off .

And it is your right to vote for who ever you want . It is just when ever anyone says anything that's anti Bush the name calling starts and tempers rise .

The economy is in a bad state . By this president hand we now will have to pay off the largest national debt in history . This will not only effect us but our children as well . 9-11 was no help , I agree . But this guy puts the democrats to shame as far as spending . He cut taxes knowing that we were spending at a record pace . Who is suppose to pay off the debt ? And how . It's like running up your credit card with no way to pay it back . Something has to give .

Also I did not say Chicago is a Conservative town , I said this news paper. If you lived here you know the Tribune is the most Conservative , pro republican paper around

1911copper

02-22-2004, 03:42 PM

The economy is in a bad state . By this president hand we now will have to pay off the largest national debt in history . This will not only effect us but our children as well . 9-11 was no help , I agree . But this guy puts the democrats to shame as far as spending . He cut taxes knowing that we were spending at a record pace . Who is suppose to pay off the debt ? And how . It's like running up your credit card with no way to pay it back . Something has to give .

Also I did not say Chicago is a Conservative town , I said this news paper. If you lived here you know the Tribune is the most Conservative , pro republican paper around

A tax cut works as a shot in the arm to the economy to get it moving. Historically, literally every time there has been a significant tax cut, Americans start spending more, taking more chances in business, start new businesses,etc. It just dosn't cure the problem overnight. You might remember a Democrat that had the same success with a tax cut. His name was John F. Kennedy.

You haven't seen a conservative paper until you've read the Daily Oklahoman. I can understand why, surrounded by hard left wingers in Illinois, the Tribune would seem conservative to you- but not to me.

Dirtdigger

02-22-2004, 04:52 PM

A tax cut works as a shot in the arm to the economy to get it moving. Historically, literally every time there has been a significant tax cut, Americans start spending more, taking more chances in business, start new businesses,etc. It just dosn't cure the problem overnight. You might remember a Democrat that had the same success with a tax cut. His name was John F. Kennedy.

You haven't seen a conservative paper until you've read the Daily Oklahoman. I can understand why, surrounded by hard left wingers in Illinois, the Tribune would seem conservative to you- but not to me.

While I do agree a tax cut is nice , it is not going to solve this problem . You just can not spend the kind of money Bush is spending ( on other country's ) and get away with it . It is not like spending it here where you will get tax dollars back . Spend it here and get our factories rebuilt and retooled so we can compete with any nation . Spend it on our schools to train doctors ,engineers , and teachers to lead us into the future . The money Bush is spending is going on a one way trip . It's our money !

1911copper

02-23-2004, 12:20 AM

Andy351

02-23-2004, 12:31 AM

scheki

02-23-2004, 12:32 AM

http://www.superford.org/getfile.php?id=107865&toggle=fullsize&f=Backwindow.jpg

metalhead

02-23-2004, 12:48 AM

http://www.superford.org/getfile.php?id=107865&toggle=fullsize&f=Backwindow.jpg
Hey man make sure your truck is backed in your driveway at all times or you might come out one day and not have a rear window.

oregonbronco

02-23-2004, 01:30 AM

Hey man make sure your truck is backed in your driveway at all times or you might come out one day and not have a rear window.

My stickers are

SAY NO TO WAR!...
unless a democrat is President

Except for ending Communism, fascism, slavery, and Nazism,WAR HAS NEVER SOLVED ANYTHING

plus 2 Bush stickers

I get flipped off, dirty loos all the times, but there is nothing to deny because there facts, so when they do that i know i won the battle. Im not to worried i live in Portland Oregon liberal state and city, right next to a liberal school (Portland State), and ahve yet to have problem, its also parked on the street

protestwarrior.com has these stickers, and more, and were a group of people that go around and crash anti war protests

1911copper

02-23-2004, 01:54 AM

Hey man make sure your truck is backed in your driveway at all times or you might come out one day and not have a rear window.

Yes, but we can't let criminals dictate our actions through fear...

Shadofax

02-23-2004, 01:57 AM

I hate to bring this up; I mention it not as justification, but merely to be realistic:
Historically speaking, going to war is typically a boost to the economy- morbid as it sounds, it does generate a lot of people making money.

It's not morbid, it's generally truthful. War usually spurs production within a country at war. This occurs most within cetain industrial segments.

I have not followed all the debate on this thread. But just glancing through it all makes me happy. There is spirited debate, and such argument between Democrat and Republican.

It's time for a third party again. I am not referring to a particular candidate (Ralphy). There is another party whose values tend toward conservative in government size, expenditures, involvment. For those tired of the two party games...the rhetoric without end...taking too much in taxes, etc. think Independent and look at what the Libertarians have to offer. We are all free to choose, :chili: so this is not a preaching to anyone, do as you will. But as a free republic we should embrace a strong third party system again to mix up all the two party nonsense.

One of our own had a great comment in his post, went something like this...
"The Democratic/John Kerry platform has no platform...other than they (Democrats) need to unite to best President Bush."

That's not totally true of course(that Kerry doesn't speak about other things), but the point is that I, too, hear this as Kerry's main message. All part of the political game to unite so that there is one main Democratic opponent.

1911copper

02-23-2004, 02:33 AM

Yeah, that would be great, Juice, but alas, I really don't see it as feasible for any third party to have a chance against the incumbant Republican, or even the democrat challengers. For this reason only, I'll vote for Bush again as a (viable) lesser of evils. The problem with our candidates is that they are all "politicians" through and through. If we could just get a idealistic "real" guy in there...
I've worked for the city for over 14 years..I've seen four chiefs come and go.. six mayors... and for some reason there's never been a mayor or city council in all of that time that didn't have a totally adversarial attitude toward police and fire... until our current mayor. She's no politician, just a local "church" lady who was tired of the bull and figured she'd see if she could make a difference. Very nice person, idealistic, ethical, moral. Unfortunately, the last administration/ city council squandered away our 1.5mill surplus on real estate speculation (illegal in our state) Now they "own" property that no one wants, we have no surplus, and we're making PAYMENTS on the property when the city used to invest surplus in CDs. The only good thing about it is that the voters ousted the entire city council with the exception of one. Too bad they don't have any money to work with now.

southrnpride69

02-23-2004, 07:02 PM

That's more leftist spin, and its an outrageous, unrealistic accusation. This scenario would make GW one of the most evil men in history, willing to let our boys die for a personal vendetta. I don't buy it for a minute. Neither do our boys. The respect that the troops have for GW is a stark contrast for what they felt for the previous administration.
Without a doubt I would rather salute Bush any day over Monica..I mean Clinton

This country is not brimming with two generations of kids that grew up not knowing any form of sacrifice or need. The US is the Disneyland of the world, and these kids think freedom is free, and there is no evil in the world. When we went to war, 85% of the public was behind it. Now support has dropped to around 50%. Why? Our troops started getting killed, and the "me" generation recoiled in horror as they discovered that this wasn't a video game, and that men were dying and killing, and using real bullets.
I'm quite sure GW is aware of this segment of the population, and I think he's kept media coverage of/and or the ceremonies under cover because he knows such graphic depiction would really set off the Disney types, damaging morale.There is enough negative in the news already why add more...Also If I die serving my country tomorrow I dont want it televised I can assure you my family will be grieving and stressed enough without a bunch of cameras showing youy a pic of my coffin with a flag draped and them crying over it. As far as previous comments of 1 person per day dieing in Irag, well I knew as did the rest of my brethren what the risks were when we joined..How many people died on the beach of normandy to free france and that had absolutley nothing to do with our country.

southrnpride69

02-23-2004, 07:17 PM

All Shrub is doing is blowing our money on his F-ucking military

You know what This F*cking military has families too and it about time we get something back clinton cut back until we could barely do our job If you dont like bush fine but dont come sounding ungrateful(which most appear to be) that some of us are willing to do what you wont. We are under paid and greatly under appreciated.well congratulations Ive helped you have the right to not appreciate the F*cking military

metalhead

02-23-2004, 07:39 PM

Dirtdigger

02-23-2004, 09:09 PM

F*uck the military
F*uck the government
Unless you fought in the revolutionary war or WWII you have nothing to do with my rights to say whatever I want. Those rights were established long before any of us were ever even thought of.

Metalhead , I don't think F the military is the right way to go . These guys have no choice on what wars they fight . Our president is the one that pulls those strings .

With that said , you must remember that without the military you would not have the freedoms which we hold so dear .There is no country in it's right mind that would attack us . They know we have the power to turn jungle to desert and desert to glass at the flip of a switch . So lets keep the military and it's people out of this .

I agree with you that every war from the Korean conflict to now are totally insignificant as far as our liberties are concerned . The Korean war and Nam were fought to keep communism from spreading . China was trying to take land by force and cram it's believes and communist ways on a people that did not want it . The Iraq war part one was undertaken to save the Kuwaitie sp? people ( oil ) . Part two is to save the Iraqi people ( oil ) . Not to mention cramming our ways and believes on the people of Iraq .

metalhead

02-23-2004, 09:26 PM

Metalhead , I don't think F the military is the right way to go . These guys have no choice on what wars they fight . Our president is the one that pulls those strings .

With that said , you must remember that without the military you would not have the freedoms which we hold so dear .There is no country in it's right mind that would attack us . They know we have the power to turn jungle to desert and desert to glass at the flip of a switch . So lets keep the military and it's people out of this .

I agree with you that every war from the Korean conflict to now are totally insignificant as far as our liberties are concerned . The Korean war and Nam were fought to keep communism from spreading . China was trying to take land by force and cram it's believes and communist ways on a people that did not want it . The Iraq war part one was undertaken to save the Kuwaitie sp? people ( oil ) . Part two is to save the Iraqi people ( oil ) . Not to mention cramming our ways and believes on the people of Iraq .
Yeah you're right there was a bit of hostility there for a moment. I apologize.
You're right it's not their choice, poor guys. At least this board has people with their own minds such as you and I and who speak the truth rather than agree with everyone else due to fear.

jerry 1 a b

02-23-2004, 09:33 PM

metalhead

02-23-2004, 09:53 PM

Thanks for jumpin in there Dirtdigger. Some people just don't understand.

Metalhead- You just finished high school right? I'd say you don't have enough life experience to competely fathom our militrary's purpose. If there wasn't a U.S. military, where do you think you'd be right now? Think about that for a little while before you answer, and you need to be honest. Sure our freedoms were established a long time ago. But if there weren't a military, do you honestly think we'd still have them, and just live fat dumb and happy for the rest of our lives as well as our children's lives?

And Dirtdigger- You may think that oil is the only, or at least primary reason we went there, and if that's how you feel it's cool. But look at the bright side. Gas prices have the opportunity to go back down, which is something everyone on this board should appreciate.
Hey man I'm not saying I have been through every life experience. But i've worked with and taken classes with military people(we have alot of them here at offut afb) and all of them are brainwashed (as I would put it) about how the war is so great and we did this and that and it's so great how we accomplished it. Well that really pisses me off. I'm not dissing on them in any way, I actually feel sorry for them. The ones actually fighting over there are psychologically scarred for life. So what I'm saying is that I do not like Bush.
I have nothing against the people he brainwashed and sent away to fight his war.

Dirtdigger

02-23-2004, 10:09 PM

And Dirtdigger- You may think that oil is the only, or at least primary reason we went there, and if that's how you feel it's cool. But look at the bright side. Gas prices have the opportunity to go back down, which is something everyone on this board should appreciate.

All I have to say on this matter is that both Bush'es top campain contributers were the likes of Enron and other energy companies . This my friend is public record.

Dirtdigger

02-23-2004, 10:17 PM

Hey man I'm not saying I have been through every life experience. But i've worked with and taken classes with military people(we have alot of them here at offut afb) and all of them are brainwashed (as I would put it) about how the war is so great and we did this and that and it's so great how we accomplished it. Well that really pisses me off. I'm not dissing on them in any way, I actually feel sorry for them. The ones actually fighting over there are psychologically scarred for life. So what I'm saying is that I do not like Bush.
I have nothing against the people he brainwashed and sent away to fight his war.

Metalhead , you have to understand . While I don't know I would use the term brain wash , our troops are taught to do what they are told ......unconditionally . This is the way it has to be in the military . You can not have a commander tell the troops to attack , and them ask why . It almost has to be a reflex action . I am only opposed to the way our troops have been used in the past few military actions .

metalhead

02-23-2004, 10:45 PM

Metalhead , you have to understand . While I don't know I would use the term brain wash , our troops are taught to do what they are told ......unconditionally . This is the way it has to be in the military . You can not have a commander tell the troops to attack , and them ask why . It almost has to be a reflex action . I am only opposed to the way our troops have been used in the past few military actions .
So you're saying that all people who join the military right now are support Bush and all for the war while the smart ones stay away from it all.

reptillikus

02-23-2004, 10:53 PM

(without reading the whole thread......)
i dont think hes saying that, but hes saying that they have to 'just do it' regardless of how they feel about the situation.

Dirtdigger

02-23-2004, 10:56 PM

So you're saying that all people who join the military right now are support Bush and all for the war while the smart ones stay away from it all.

No . When you join they military you take a chance . You might skate by for four years and never fire a hostile shot . But if there is any military action you have to be prepared for that also . It is not a free ride . Nor is the military a collage . It is a fighting machine . Education is just a side benefit .
Whether your smart or not is not relevant . If you join the service ,be prepared to fight .

Dirtdigger

02-23-2004, 11:00 PM

(without reading the whole thread......)
i dont think hes saying that, but hes saying that they have to 'just do it' regardless of how they feel about the situation.

Thats right . For better or worst , for sickness and in health ,for war or peace , till death or your term of service is up . Amen :)

1911copper

02-23-2004, 11:32 PM

F*uck the military
F*uck the government
Unless you fought in the revolutionary war or WWII you have nothing to do with my rights to say whatever I want. Those rights were established long before any of us were ever even thought of.

Here is exactly what I'm talking about, another "Disney" kid. Anyone that gives this kid anything above zero credibility after this post is not thinking.

1911copper

02-23-2004, 11:37 PM

Hey man I'm not saying I have been through every life experience. But i've worked with and taken classes with military people(we have alot of them here at offut afb) and all of them are brainwashed (as I would put it) about how the war is so great and we did this and that and it's so great how we accomplished it. Well that really pisses me off. I'm not dissing on them in any way, I actually feel sorry for them. The ones actually fighting over there are psychologically scarred for life. So what I'm saying is that I do not like Bush.
I have nothing against the people he brainwashed and sent away to fight his war.

So anyone who disagrees with the Disney kid (with his vast experience and perspective) is brainwashed. Zero credibility.

1911copper

02-23-2004, 11:42 PM

All I have to say on this matter is that both Bush'es top campain contributers were the likes of Enron and other energy companies . This my friend is public record.

It really wears me how opponents of the war constantly throw up this oil aspect, as if it is illegitimate. Yes, oil is one of the US interests that we are fighting the war about. Oil is vital to this country. Its not as if its something we could do without. Do you have any idea how much oil America runs on a day?

Japan attacked us at Pearl Harbor for oil. We sent bomber crews on suicide missions in WWII to bomb Nazi oil refineries. Get it in proper perspective.

metalhead

02-23-2004, 11:59 PM

Here is exactly what I'm talking about, another "Disney" kid. Anyone that gives this kid anything above zero credibility after this post is not thinking.
Hey at least I only attacked people's opinions rather than attacking them.

Dirtdigger

02-23-2004, 11:59 PM

It really wears me how opponents of the war constantly throw up this oil aspect, as if it is illegitimate. Yes, oil is one of the US interests that we are fighting the war about. Oil is vital to this country. Its not as if its something we could do without. Do you have any idea how much oil America runs on a day?

Japan attacked us at Pearl Harbor for oil. We sent bomber crews on suicide missions in WWII to bomb Nazi oil refineries. Get it in proper perspective.

So are we fighting for oil or to save a country ? Bush said oil had nothing to do with the war . Did he lie ? If the reason we are fighting is oil , time to change presidents !

metalhead

02-24-2004, 12:10 AM

http//:www.artcontext.org/activism/politics/bush.php

jerry 1 a b

02-24-2004, 12:29 AM

So are we fighting for oil or to save a country ? Bush said oil had nothing to do with the war . Did he lie ? If the reason we are fighting is oil , time to change presidents !

Hold the phone!!!

The very first war we took to Iraq was because Saddam was misusing his power over his oil (which he obtained through brutality to say the least) and his plans on taking out Kuwait to gain their oil and funds from the oil. At that time, we were considered allies, so Saddam misunderstood thinking that we wouldn't step in to help while he attacked Kuwait. Then after we stepped up to the plate, he set the oil fields on fire to prevent us from getting to them. His sole reason was, if I destroy the oil, they (the U.S.) won't care anymore. In short, oil has always been an issue! And it's not just for us. Iraq and it's neighboring countries supply the majority of the WORLDS oil, not just ours. It was imperative that we (in the name of UN) or at least someone gain control of the oil. You have to think logically about it, and not just say "ah the whole war was about oil, and Bush is a crook."
So whether Bush came right out and said it or not, it should be understood by all that oil was a major issue. How many reasons do you guys want?

Dirtdigger

02-24-2004, 12:35 AM

Hold the phone!!!

The very first war we took to Iraq was because Saddam was misusing his power over his oil (which he obtained through brutality to say the least) and his plans on taking out Kuwait to gain their oil and funds from the oil. At that time, we were considered allies, so Saddam misunderstood thinking that we wouldn't step in to help while he attacked Kuwait. Then after we stepped up to the plate, he set the oil fields on fire to prevent us from getting to them. His sole reason was, if I destroy the oil, they (the U.S.) won't care anymore. In short, oil has always been an issue! And it's not just for us. Iraq and it's neighboring countries supply the majority of the WORLDS oil, not just ours. It was imperative that we (in the name of UN) or at least someone gain control of the oil. You have to think logically about it, and not just say "ah the whole war was about oil, and Bush is a crook."
So whether Bush came right out and said it or not, it should be understood by all that oil was a major issue. How many reasons do you guys want?

I know that , you know that . The question is why lie . Say it like it is .We are there to protect the oil . Or is it political suicide to tell the truth ? If you look back in this very thread people will say it's not about oil.

scheki

02-24-2004, 12:41 AM

I have the balls of leaving my truck on the street at times. I have received a few thumbs up on the signs. They are not coming down.
:goodfinge :rockon

metalhead

02-24-2004, 12:49 AM

jerry 1 a b

02-24-2004, 12:53 AM

I know that , you know that . The question is why lie . Say it like it is .We are there to protect the oil . Or is it political suicide to tell the truth ? If you look back in this very thread people will say it's not about oil.

I don't recall anyone saying that it wasn't about oil in this thread. I do recall people saying that the primary reason we are there is liberation. It just bothers me when people try to make it into an oil issue, because that's just stating the obvious.

Look at it this way (pardon me if this a poor analogy but here goes). Say someone breaks into you house, and steals your most prized possesions*. You vow to catch the person who did it. Should there be any question that you want your stuff back, or do you have find a way to proove that that person had a gun and threatend you when they did it, just to justify catching them? Personally, I'd want my stuff back to. Should I have to say that, or should I just concentrate on catching the bastard.

Better yet, lets say this person comes into your home while you are sleeping, and you 5 year old sweet innocent little girl wakes up and catches him. Out of panic, he shoots your girl square in the chest, and then makes a run for it. Should you have to argue that he killed your only child just for justification?

Be reasonable about it. All the reasons we went there weren't just excuses. Half of them shouldn't have even been brought up, because they are unquestionable reasons, yet people still want a smoking gun. People still want to make it into an oil issue, when that's not the entire picture. When you put things into perspective, it gets a bit more serious.

Dirtdigger

02-24-2004, 01:11 AM

I don't recall anyone saying that it wasn't about oil in this thread. I do recall people saying that the primary reason we are there is liberation. It just bothers me when people try to make it into an oil issue, because that's just stating the obvious.

Look at it this way (pardon me if this a poor analogy but here goes). Say someone breaks into you house, and steals your most prized possesions*. You vow to catch the person who did it. Should there be any question that you want your stuff back, or do you have find a way to proove that that person had a gun and threatend you when they did it, just to justify catching them? Personally, I'd want my stuff back to. Should I have to say that, or should I just concentrate on catching the bastard.

Better yet, lets say this person comes into your home while you are sleeping, and you 5 year old sweet innocent little girl wakes up and catches him. Out of panic, he shoots your girl square in the chest, and then makes a run for it. Should you have to argue that he killed your only child just for justification?

Be reasonable about it. All the reasons we went there weren't just excuses. Half of them shouldn't have even been brought up, because they are unquestionable reasons, yet people still want a smoking gun. People still want to make it into an oil issue, when that's not the entire picture. When you put things into perspective, it gets a bit more serious.

I understand where you are coming from ....but we have the oil reserves here . Yes I know the tree huggers scream about us drilling in Alaska , but it can be done . Do you know how many drill rigs and pipe lines could be had for 100 billion ? ( I don't either , but I imagine a lot ) . How many jobs it would generate ? Deep sea oil is another , it can be had , all it takes is money .

As far as the smoking gun and the war . In MY opinion we were mislead . And if I am right this president will be history in November . If the majority feel he told the truth ............oh well , what can I say ........four years goes by fast . :banghead

jerry 1 a b

02-24-2004, 01:32 AM

Well, setting up oil rigs to bring in what we can bring in from overseas won't be cheap at all. Granted, I don't know the exact pricing either, but your talking years of construction and labor, finding the sites, clearing through the government while fighting green peace, yada yada yada.... In the end, it is more cost effective and economical to import our oil. Everyone looks at a 100 billion dollars like it's a lot of money. Well, to you and me it is, but in perspective to our Gross National spending of around 6 trillion, it's pocket change. Another thing you need to realise is that we (U.S.) consume oil all over the world, and not just here in the good ol' U. S. of A. If we were to change our sorce to only the U.S. .... We'd be spending hella amounts of money just to transport the oil to where we need it, when there's more oil than we'll ever see used in this lifetime 20 yds away. You have to weigh the odds.

Think of it this way. I won't use military since most of you seem to feel they shouldn't be anywhere but here. Instead take any U.S. embassey. Would it make sense to ship any kind of product to them, say toilet paper, coca cola, shaving cream or whatever, when they can buy it from the local store (that is if there is one)? Of course not, and on top of that, figure in the fact that we may pay 3 dollars for a roll of toilet paper (just an example) where as they pay 50 cents. So you've already saved 2.50 per roll, then add in the amount it cost to ship it..... you see where I'm going.

All I'm saying is that it's more cost effective to use the local gas station, then to drive 100 miles where it's 10 cents cheaper. (and in most case, it won't be cheaper).

Sorry for any misspelling, but me and my MGD are getting along real well tonight! :beer

Dirtdigger

02-24-2004, 01:55 AM

jerry 1 a b

02-24-2004, 03:13 AM

I am not saying all oil has to come from here . But we can certainly decease our dependency on it . I'll bet though in one day , that a city like Chicago uses more oil product than all the embasseys and military around the world . So if you get our reserves flowing again , I still think we are better off . This way the whole country is using " the local gas station ".

I highly doubt that Chicago alone can compare, and I'll tell you why. The ship I was stationed on used millions of dollars worth of fuel oil and lube oil (yes they are different) per week just to patrol a box. That's one ship. There are roughly 10 ships in a battle group, and mine was one of the 'small boys.' Now take into account that there are at least 5 (guesstimation) battle groups deployed at any given time, not to mention other ships deployed just for training, work ups, routine maintenance, and such. That's just in the Navy alone, and only counting the ships. There is even more used in Naval aircraft.
Now start taking into account all of the Bradleys, Abrams and HumVees out there on patrol. The number is growing fast, and I haven't even scratched the surface.

When it comes down to it, oil is important, and countries have gone to war for lesser causes. I'm not saying that using our own oil is a bad idea. But there is so much more available. If the only thing standing between cheaper prices and close to unlimited supply vs. over throwing a murderous dictator, then I'm all for over throwing him.

And let me re-emphasize that that's not even the primary reason we are over there right now.

jerry 1 a b

02-24-2004, 03:17 AM

http//:www.artcontext.org/activism/politics/bush.php

That's a pretty childish website right there. Have the elections sunk to second grade level?

1911copper

02-24-2004, 03:36 AM

So are we fighting for oil or to save a country ? Bush said oil had nothing to do with the war . Did he lie ? If the reason we are fighting is oil , time to change presidents !

Read more carefully. I said that oil is ONE of the US interests we are fighting for.

1911copper

02-24-2004, 03:44 AM

Here's something I like. (and not common among the Hollywood types)
ROBIN WILLIAMS FOR PRESIDENT!!!

** Leave it to Robin Williams to come up with the perfect plan ... what we need*** now is for our UN Ambassador to stand up and repeat this message.

** Robin Williams' plan...(Hard to argue with this logic!)

** "I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of a plan for*peace.**So, here's one plan:

** 1. The US will apologize to the world for our 'interference' in their affairs,*past &present.**You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Noriega, Milosovich and the*rest of those 'good ole boys.'**We will never 'interfere' again.

** 2. We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany,*South Korea and the Philippines.**They don't want us there.**We would station*troops at our borders.**No one sneaking through holes in the fence.

** 3. All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave.**We'll give them a free trip home.**After 90 days the remainder will be*gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are.*France would welcome them.

** 4. All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days*unless given a special permit.**No one from a terrorist nation would be*allowed in.**If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide*here.**Asylum would never be available to anyone.**We don't need any more cab*drivers or 7-11 cashiers.

** 5. No 'students' over age 21.**The older ones are the bombers.**If they don't*attend classes, they get a 'D' and it's back home baby.

** 6. The US will make a strong effort to become self-sufficient energy wise.**This will include developing non-polluting sources of energy but will require*a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness.**The caribou will have*to cope for a while.

** 7. Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their*oil.**If they don't like it, we go some place else.**They can go somewhere*else to sell their production.**(About a week of the wells filling up the*storage sites would be enough.)

** 8. If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will*not 'interfere.'**They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement*or whatever they need.**Besides most of what we give them is stolen or given*to the army.**The people who need it most get very little, if anything.

** 9. Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island some place.**We don't need*the spies and fair weather friends here.**Besides, the building would make a*good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

** 10. All Americans must go to charm and beauty school.**That way, no one can*call us 'Ugly Americans' any longer.

** 11. The Language we speak is ENGLISH...learn it...or LEAVE...*

*Now, ain't that a winner of a plan.

** AND FINALLY

** 'The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your poor, your tired,*your huddled masses.'

** She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'You want a piece of me?'"

Dirtdigger

02-24-2004, 11:19 AM

metalhead

02-24-2004, 12:49 PM

That's a pretty childish website right there. Have the elections sunk to second grade level?
Basically it's the truth with a little comedy added.

95 BXL

02-24-2004, 02:42 PM

Unfortunately, Robin only came up with #12 on the list.... the rest were made up by someone else. But I could support anyone running for president on that platform.

The Williams Plan (http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/williams.asp)

ValkariaKid

02-24-2004, 06:47 PM

gobucs

02-24-2004, 07:54 PM

Subject: Bush Lied??

If you really believe that President BUSH lied - - THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ AND HE TOOK US TO WAR SOLELY FOR HIS OIL BUDDIES --then read this and, if you are the fair minded person that I believe you to be--

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them.
That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear.
We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from USA but, what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S.Constitution and Laws, to take necessary actions, (including, if appropriate,
air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction
programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs
continue a pace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998.
We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities.
Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated
the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his
chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" Rep.
Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological
weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program.
He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members
It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime . He presents a
particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his
continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction
So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan.23.2003

SO NOW THE DEMOCRATS SAY PRESIDENT BUSH LIED, THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND HE TOOK US TO WAR FOR HIS OIL BUDDIES??? Boy! Talk about two tongued philosophy!!!

Dirtdigger

02-24-2004, 08:26 PM

Bobby

02-24-2004, 08:33 PM

Well said gobucs :rockon

You know as a military man I spent many many years right at the poverty line trying to support my family. I've served for 4 presidents. The worst were the clinton years, the man hated us. When Bush came in we started getting pay raises we wanted to go see the President (Not forced). Just look at the troops when they get to see the President if anyone should be mad about any war I would think the troops would be upset the most. Naa we love our president. The 87 billion everyone complains about for Iraq Well its not all going to Iraq we also get paid out of that money. Remember there are always job openings in the military. :chili:

metalhead

02-24-2004, 08:41 PM

Dirtdigger

02-24-2004, 09:02 PM

If he loves you why doesn't he come and be on the front lines with the rest of you. Then he'd think differently about this war or any war in general.

Come on metalhead , you know I am against this whole thing as much as anybody , but that is not the way things are done . No president is expected to put themselves in harms way like that . Nor should they . They are the executive branch and are not expected to be on the front line .

metalhead

02-24-2004, 09:13 PM

Come on metalhead , you know I am against this whole thing as much as anybody , but that is not the way things are done . No president is expected to put themselves in harms way like that . Nor should they . They are the executive branch and are not expected to be on the front line .
Yeah but this can be thought of in several ways. Aren't you the one who's pissed because 500+ soldiers are dead. I'm with you on that one. If Bush or any of his family had to fight instead of him hiding his pu*sy ass in a bunker while the innocent soldiers who asked for not one little thing die because of his failure to be a good honest leader. What happened to that whole speech Abe Linchon gave about how all men are created equal. Bush isn't better than the ones who died because of his greed and stupidity.

Bobby

02-24-2004, 09:17 PM

Dirtdigger

02-24-2004, 09:20 PM

Yeah but this can be thought of in several ways. Aren't you the one who's pissed because 500+ soldiers are dead. I'm with you on that one. If Bush or any of his family had to fight instead of him hiding his pu*sy ass in a bunker while the innocent soldiers who asked for not one little thing die because of his failure to be a good honest leader. What happened to that whole speech Abe Linchon gave about how all men are created equal. Bush isn't better than the ones who died because of his greed and stupidity.

I am pissed because I feel our troops were sent to war WITHOUT a good reason . And yes I am pissed that they are dying for no good reason .But No president , including this one is expected to go into battle . If you are going to argue a point make sure the point is worth arguing for .

metalhead

02-24-2004, 09:45 PM

Hey metalhead do you feel guilty for riding the free gravy train while others fight for there country. Its amazing,t I've been shot, at spent many a months away from my family missing birthdays, holidays, anniversarys, and also deaths in the family, so people like you can ride that free gravy train. Why don't you grow up and stop being an A$$
I'm sorry to hear that I hope you've fully recovered but unless you were drafted and then got shot I don't feel sorry for you. It's not my fault you choose a life where you can get shot and then when you're out you either live on the streets or work for $6 per hour. While your getting shot I'm studying and getting a higher education to better myself.

Bobby

02-24-2004, 09:51 PM

Got a bachelors degree in environmental science paid for from the Navy.

Thanks to Bush I now make 4,000 a month and get 30 days free vacation a year. Along with free medical to a doctor we choose.

1911copper

02-24-2004, 10:02 PM

Bobby

02-24-2004, 10:06 PM

you know maybe your right metal head maybe we should just all stay home and let our enemys come to the United states and fight here maybe then you'll appreciate the people who fight for there country a little better

1911copper

02-24-2004, 10:12 PM

I understand what you are saying . And I agree he either had them or hid them . That is a given . The problem I have is why at that particular time did we have to go to war .

Obviously, the 9/11 attacks were the impetus that got the US up in arms. (85% of the population was for the war at the onset)

Why do we always have to take the lead with our military . Waiting was an option . Saddam was thrumming his nose at us , agreed . But he did not fire one shot at us to start the war .

Waiting was an option? What, ten more years, maybe? Innaction would have only reinforced Saddam's attitude that we meant not what we said. Ultimatums are only effective if you follow through, which we had not in a decade.

I understand the U.N was not getting off it's ass as fast as WE wanted , but it would have come . But it was a race for the "pie". If we waited for the French , Germans and the rest , we would have had to cut the "pie" too many ways .

I highly doubt that it "would have come"- ever. France can't even seem to find the intestinal fortitude to defend its own shores from invasion, let along mix it up as a UN ally.

Militarily , we had nothing to lose by waiting .Iraq could have been turned into an ashtray at our discretion . Unfortunately , we are the ones left holding the shitty end of the stick , while the rest of the world sits back and laughs at us . Now we want the U.N to take a "larger role" .This will be our way out . And everyone will still get a piece of Iraq , but we will have to pay for it .

And I believe that is the reason the few (remember, the majority of nations were with us) spineless countries held out. They knew we'd foot the bill and do the fighting as usual. (Along with the UK) "The rest of the world" is not sitting back and laughing at us. Only those whom we've conquered and those who couldn't fight their own war let alone this one.

1911copper

02-24-2004, 10:31 PM

metalhead

02-24-2004, 10:51 PM

Obviously acedemic studies have no affect on maturity level.

If he didn't choose that life, you wouldn't have the choice to study.
Once again this thread is to give and discuss our opinions about our problems we face in our country. This post is not intended for us to insult each other.
As an adult you should understand what I am saying.

Dirtdigger

02-24-2004, 10:54 PM

Obviously, the 9/11 attacks were the impetus that got the US up in arms. (85% of the population was for the war at the onset)

Waiting was an option? What, ten more years, maybe? Innaction would have only reinforced Saddam's attitude that we meant not what we said. Ultimatums are only effective if you follow through, which we had not in a decade.

I highly doubt that it "would have come"- ever. France can't even seem to find the intestinal fortitude to defend its own shores from invasion, let along mix it up as a UN ally.

And I believe that is the reason the few (remember, the majority of nations were with us) spineless countries held out. They knew we'd foot the bill and do the fighting as usual. (Along with the UK) "The rest of the world" is not sitting back and laughing at us. Only those whom we've conquered and those who couldn't fight their own war let alone this one.

Copper , you and I will never see eye to eye on every issue concerning this war and this president . Let's just say , we both want what is best for this country and it's people . When this thread started I did my best to stay out of it , because I can go on forever about this shit . I consider myself just to the left of center . Until the day we can get an honest man into the Whitehouse , we will never have a government that truly works for the people . Unfortunately that day is not going to come in November , no matter who wins .

1911copper

02-24-2004, 11:40 PM

This post is not intended for us to insult each other.
As an adult you should understand what I am saying.

You can stop pretending to be the martyr. As an adult, I understand that you have more than insulted those of us in the military and veterans:

F*uck the military
F*uck the government
Unless you fought in the revolutionary war or WWII you have nothing to do with my rights to say whatever I want. Those rights were established long before any of us were ever even thought of.

Hey man I'm not saying I have been through every life experience. But i've worked with and taken classes with military people(we have alot of them here at offut afb) and all of them are brainwashed (as I would put it) about how the war is so great and we did this and that and it's so great how we accomplished it. Well that really pisses me off. I'm not dissing on them in any way, I actually feel sorry for them. The ones actually fighting over there are psychologically scarred for life. So what I'm saying is that I do not like Bush.
I have nothing against the people he brainwashed and sent away to fight his war."

not my fault you choose a life where you can get shot and then when you're out you either live on the streets or work for $6 per hour. While your getting shot I'm studying and getting a higher education to better myself.

Actually, I'm glad you're on the thread. You came in almost as if on cue, just when I was describing the new generations of "Disney kids". You've provided the perfect living example. Spoiled rotten. No concern or care for anything or anyone other than yourself, let alone the ones who make your easy coast through life possible.

Does the concept, "Deterrant" mean anything to you?

A quote found posted to a bulletin board at the US Command post in Khe-Sanh sums you up best:

"For those who fight for it, life has a flavour the sheltered never know."

jerry 1 a b

02-25-2004, 01:02 AM

Once again this thread is to give and discuss our opinions about our problems we face in our country. This post is not intended for us to insult each other.
As an adult you should understand what I am saying.

All you have done on this thread is insult. And I'm sorry if I don't take it lightly when people can't appreciate, or take for granted freedoms that have been given to them, and are constantly protected by those of us in the military. You know what, I volunteered to protect your rights, even though you are a nieve* adolesant that doesn't even understand the veiws that he's arguing. As an adult, I'm saying quit posting nonsense until you grow up. :twak

All you are doing is stiring up the fire. Sit back, read and learn something.

X40ozcasualtie79

02-25-2004, 02:11 AM

lright thats it for the last god knows how many minutes i have been reading nothing but how you soilders now a days have fought for our rights if you look at it yes we are a lot more free a contry than say iraq and iran and others like that, but if you also look at it wwe are also the most repressed.
A LOT of you people in the military think that you are fighting for what our rights just because thats what you most likely have been told your whole life and if not the what you have been told by the military personel.
I'm sorry but i think that the politicians, president and people in the service are all paranoid all you think is by fighting :boxing we solved a problem we help protect our rights( which i do enjoy and am proud i have).
this contry isn't free no contry will ever truley be free ever, but living in a society where people who aren't part of or on the sate of mind that its anything special to be in the military should not be ostrasized for that if you people out there think that its cool to be in the military good maybe that is your idea of cool but having people tell me what to do and kill for no reason is wrong you are all following someone and letting them tell you what to do and htat my friends is what i like to call being facism following and doing something that they were told to do and if you all think its your job and your just following orders then check this you know what other group of soilders whre just doing a job and following orders they were called nazi's and they dawm near wiped a group of people of the earth so i leave you all with this when you r in the hands of an awol drunkin coke attic president who thinks his idea of freedom is telling all the soilders at his dispposial to start a war to capture sadam and kill innocent people i was good that we caught him but not nessecary oil (operation. iraqi.liberation) and the capture of saddam was not that important trust me if he wanted to do something don't you think he would've done it before we captured him are think of it this way do you think that him getting captured was his plan all along well i'll let you all read this and put more input whne i get some responses "your gonna die gonna die gonna die for your goverment die for your cnrty thats shit"-Anti-Flag

P.S. non-military people are just as important as you military people and just because you think your fightning for a cause htey may not think that :rockon

X40ozcasualtie79

02-25-2004, 02:18 AM

metalhead

02-25-2004, 02:21 AM

X40ozcasualtie79

02-25-2004, 02:28 AM

At least there are some among us that have the balls to speak the truth! :thumbup
people should do it more often but im getting offline waitng for my girl to call me

metalhead

02-25-2004, 02:35 AM

Bush & Son's Inc. Formely known as The United States of America!
Hopefully this business will be shut down in November's election! :usa

ColoradoBronc

02-25-2004, 03:37 AM

I'm sorry to hear that I hope you've fully recovered but unless you were drafted and then got shot I don't feel sorry for you. It's not my fault you choose a life where you can get shot and then when you're out you either live on the streets or work for $6 per hour. While your getting shot I'm studying and getting a higher education to better myself.

I joined the military because I chose to. I am a veteran of Desert Storm and believe that this one should have been settled 13 years ago with Saddam's head on the end of a stick. I back all the men that put their ass on the the line to fight for our freedom. I had my turn at it and I'd hope to think that they supported me. As for you, I can't believe the crap you're posting on here. It sounds like you're in the need of a serious blanket party. Search Yahoo for that one, but the military guys know what I'm talking about. You should thank those guys for fighting for your freedom, but chose to insult us instead. It's great that you're going to college to better yourself although your spelling and run-on sentences make me think you're a failure. I thought they taught english in high school? You have the chance to study because you're free but it sounds to me like you're in it for the beer. If you'd take your head out of your ass for a minute, maybe you'd realize that alot of those guys taking bullets for your dumbass, did it so they could have the money to go to college to. Is your education important enough to you to take a bullet for it. I doubt it. I could go on about this for along time but I won't. Nothing that anyone says in here is going to make you change your views because you live in a fantasy world. Wear this badge of honor proudly Metalhead, this bag's for you :brownbag . Rant over.

To all my military brothers out there, I salute you. :rockon :usa

ValkariaKid

02-25-2004, 05:04 AM

1911copper

02-25-2004, 09:17 AM

At least there are some among us that have the balls to speak the truth! :thumbup

Uh- yeah, but the rest of us are doing it in English- I'm not sure what
that was....

1911copper

02-25-2004, 09:25 AM

Yes Bush LIED!

Nobody can debate the issue on weather Iraq had WMD's.
We know they did.
This is fact.

Bush lied to us because he said that they still have them, and pose an "imminent threat to the United States".

That is not true.

They did not pose any threat to the US.

That was the lie.

This is the issue here. Our president took our nation to war, and used lies to get support from the congress, and the citizens in order to do it.

Oil
Revenge
Money
Liberation
Re-election
Photo ops for the "war president"
are all 'bonuses' for this war, and without proof that substantiates his claim that they "posed an imminent threat to the United States" appear to be the real reason(s) why he was hell-bent on going to war in the first place.

Around in circles we go- you cannot prove your assertion that he did not "still " have them, nor that they were not an "imminent threat". That is nothing more than conjecture on your part.
Valkaria, following your logic- if a street hood was seen shooting a man dead on the street by two witnesses, and I served a search warrant on his home and was unable to find the murder weapon, we would have to assume he was innocent and aquit him on the charge of murder.

And yes, its that simple.

95 BXL

02-25-2004, 09:50 AM

Nope. Nobody can debate the fact that Iraq had WMD's.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM
Report: Syria hiding Iraqi WMD
Sources say relative of President Assad smuggled arms to 3 places

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: January 6, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

A relative of Syrian President Bashar Assad is hiding Iraqi weapons of mass destruction in three locations in Syria, according to intelligence sources cited by an exiled opposition party.

The weapons were smuggled in large wooden crates and barrels by Zu Alhema al-Shaleesh, known for moving arms into Iraq in violation of U.N. resolutions and for sending recruits to fight coalition forces, said the U.S.-based Reform Party of Syria.

The party, based in Potomac, Md., regards itself as a secular body comprised of Syrians who want to see the country embrace "real democratic and economic reforms."

One weapons-cache location identified by the sources is a mountain tunnel near the village of al-Baidah in northwest Syria, the report said. The tunnel is known to house a branch of the Assad regime's national security apparatus.

Two other arms supplies are reported to be in west-central Syria. One is hidden at a factory operated by the Syrian Air Force, near the village of Tal Snan, between the cities of Hama and Salmiyeh. The third location is tunnels beneath the small town of Shinshar, which belongs to the 661 battalion of the Syrian Air Force.

The nephew of Zu Alhema al-Shaleesh, Assef al-Shaleesh, runs Al Bashair Trading Co., a front for the Assad family involved prior to the war in oil smuggling from Iraq and arms smuggling into the country. Al-Bashair has offices in Damascus, Beirut and Baghdad.

In an exclusive interview yesterday with the London Telegraph, Assad came close to admitting his country possessed stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction.

Assad told the London paper Syria rejects American and British demands for concessions on weapons of mass destruction, insisting Damascus is entitled to defend itself by acquiring its own chemical and biological deterrent.

He said Israel must agree to abandon its undeclared nuclear arsenal in order for Syria to consider any deal with the U.S.

Last week, the Los Angeles Times reported Al Bashair Trading Co. participated in the smuggling of millions of dollars worth of sophisticated arms and equipment to Saddam Hussein for three years prior to the Iraqi leader's overthrow.

Al Bashair executives met with North Korean firms before the war began, according to the Los Angeles daily. The paper's three-month investigation included the translation of 800 signed contracts found in the Al Bashair Trading Co. office shortly before U.S. troops entered Baghdad.

Just prior to the U.S.-led effort to oust Hussein, SES International Corp. signed at least 50 contracts to supply weapons and gear to Iraq, the Times said, including 1,000 heavy machine guns and up to 20 million rounds for assault rifles.

Not all the weapons were delivered, but some may still be in use by terrorists battling the U.S. occupation forces, the newspaper said.

At least one shipment of arms was completed with the help of the Syrian government in violation of a U.N. arms embargo.

SES International Corp. denied any wrongdoing, while Syria's foreign ministry refused to comment to the Times.

-------------------------------------------------
Of course, getting them out of the country before the war started doesn't count, right?

I don't believe you recognize the terrorist threat. I don't believe that you understand what needs to be done to end it; or how much, in terms of life and expense, it's going to take to end that threat.

To end it, and provide reason for unfriendly governments to act to end it within their own borders, we took the first step in the Middle East by making an example out of someone we knew to support terrorism. For me, there were a variety of reasons to knock this guy off... much like there are a variety of reasons to take out Assad and the mullah of the moment running Iran.

We must eradicate an increasingly sophisticated, and, therefore, extremely dangerous terrorism mindset around the world before they become the threat that DOES meet your level of approval.

That, of course, requires us to go wherever they are, and do what must be done to them before they do what they want to us. I, for one, prefer to error on the sode of caution about the safety of this country. Far leftists such as yourself obviously seem to take a somewhat more stilted view.

Oh well.

Yes Bush LIED!

Nobody can debate the issue on weather Iraq had WMD's.
We know they did.
This is fact.

Bush lied to us because he said that they still have them, and pose an "imminent threat to the United States".

That is not true.

They did not pose any threat to the US.

That was the lie.

This is the issue here. Our president took our nation to war, and used lies to get support from the congress, and the citizens in order to do it.

Oil
Revenge
Money
Liberation
Re-election
Photo ops for the "war president"
are all 'bonuses' for this war, and without proof that substantiates his claim that they "posed an imminent threat to the United States" appear to be the real reason(s) why he was hell-bent on going to war in the first place.

95 BXL

02-25-2004, 09:51 AM

Dirtdigger

02-25-2004, 10:44 AM

Uh- yeah, but the rest of us are doing it in English- I'm not sure what
that was....

Alright copper , I'll give ya this . Clinton did have computers put in grammer schools , an it is starting to show in this thread ! :shrug

metalhead

02-25-2004, 11:26 AM

I joined the military because I chose to. I am a veteran of Desert Storm and believe that this one should have been settled 13 years ago with Saddam's head on the end of a stick. I back all the men that put their ass on the the line to fight for our freedom. I had my turn at it and I'd hope to think that they supported me. As for you, I can't believe the crap you're posting on here. It sounds like you're in the need of a serious blanket party. Search Yahoo for that one, but the military guys know what I'm talking about. You should thank those guys for fighting for your freedom, but chose to insult us instead. It's great that you're going to college to better yourself although your spelling and run-on sentences make me think you're a failure. I thought they taught english in high school? You have the chance to study because you're free but it sounds to me like you're in it for the beer. If you'd take your head out of your ass for a minute, maybe you'd realize that alot of those guys taking bullets for your dumbass, did it so they could have the money to go to college to. Is your education important enough to you to take a bullet for it. I doubt it. I could go on about this for along time but I won't. Nothing that anyone says in here is going to make you change your views because you live in a fantasy world. Wear this badge of honor proudly Metalhead, this bag's for you :brownbag . Rant over.

To all my military brothers out there, I salute you. :rockon :usa
I don't drink!

metalhead

02-25-2004, 11:29 AM

Uh- yeah, but the rest of us are doing it in English- I'm not sure what
that was....
Posi muy kurutz e poyubi moyu gusitsu! :histerica

ValkariaKid

02-25-2004, 01:03 PM

Around in circles we go- you cannot prove your assertion that he did not "still " have them, nor that they were not an "imminent threat". That is nothing more than conjecture on your part
The UN weapon inspectors were there for a long time, and didn't find them.
We have been there for the past year with unlimited access 24/7 and haven't found them either.

You post a story that states that the WMD's were moved into Syria well before the war began.

OK... so if Syria had them why did Bush & co say that Iraq had them and posed the "imminent threat to the US" when they didn't?

What about Rummy saying "We know he has them, and we know where they are"?
If that were to be true shouldn't we be in Syria instead?

You put quite a spin on things to justify, and protect your lousy choice for POTUS.

To end it, and provide reason for unfriendly governments to act to end it within their own borders, we took the first step in the Middle East by making an example out of someone we knew to support terrorism.
So we are only "making an example" by capturing SH?

I thought we were there to defuse this huge "imminent threat".

Wouldn't capturing OBL be a better choice to make an example out of?

Talk about going in circles here! How many times are the neocons and this administration going to change the reason why we're in Iraq?

I thought it quite amusing when Tim Russert spoke to Dubya on "Meet The Press" last week and the prez said that SH was a "gathering threat" to his neighbors, and the world in general. That is sure a far cry from the s h i t he sold us to get support for this war!

From:
imminent threat to the United States
To
gathering threat to his neighbors

You can call me whatever name you want (leftist, liberal, ...) , post as many theories you want everyone to believe, bash whomever is candidate that will replace Dubya, demean anyone that doesn't agree with you or points out faults in your blindness, but in the end it will not change the fact that George Bush and his administration lied to us.

*****On a side note*****
It's nice to see that even republicans in congress are now seeing how dangerous the president it by not granting him the amendment that bans gay marriages in haste.

"compassionate conservative" my ass!

metalhead

02-25-2004, 02:04 PM

Uh- yeah, but the rest of us are doing it in English- I'm not sure what
that was....
Yeah the only thin you can criticize X40ozcasualtie79 about is his misspelled words or typing errors. Everything else is pretty much true. You people are not fighting for my freedom. You took it away. I assmune you are all white. I am too. If you are white then you are not an American. You are only American if you're a Native American which would mean this is your native land. I happen to be part Native American an this is my country which you stole from my people hundreds of years ago. You all fly your flag because it represents false security. That flag don't mean anything to me The land does. So therefore I pledge no alegience to a anything that represents stolen property.

Dirtdigger

02-25-2004, 02:33 PM

Yeah the only thin you can criticize X40ozcasualtie79 about is his misspelled words or typing errors. Everything else is pretty much true. You people are not fighting for my freedom. You took it away. I assmune you are all white. I am too. If you are white then you are not an American. You are only American if you're a Native American which would mean this is your native land. I happen to be part Native American an this is my country which you stole from my people hundreds of years ago. You all fly your flag because it represents false security. That flag don't mean anything to me The land does. So therefore I pledge no alegience to a anything that represents stolen property.

If ya want to start a thread about how the white man fawked the native Americans , go ahead . But don,t hijack this one and bring it in that direction . This thread is about Bush and his actions . One more thing , there are plenty of web sites pro and con to Bush . It's easy to cut and paste what they publish . You can run in circles all day pasting thier propaganda . Lets try to stick to the facts .

Bobby

02-25-2004, 02:57 PM

As metalhead said

I assmune you are all white. I am too.

If you are white then you are not an American. You are only American if you're a Native American which would mean this is your native land. I happen to be part Native American an this is my country which you stole from my people hundreds of years ago.

dude your digging, read what you wrote :wacko

so if we are white we are not americans, but you, who is also white is still an american ????? I was born in this country on this great land, served my country for over 16 years been in 2 wars and many small conflicts I think I've earned my spot to be an american. As a democrat once said (ask what not your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country)

metalhead

02-25-2004, 03:21 PM

As metalhead said

dude your digging, read what you wrote :wacko

so if we are white we are not americans, but you, who is also white is still an american ????? I was born in this country on this great land, served my country for over 16 years been in 2 wars and many small conflicts I think I've earned my spot to be an american. As a democrat once said (ask what not your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country)
It is true that if you're white you're not truely american. You're an american citizen and that's a government issue there. America and Americans were here long befrore our government took it over. And yes I apologize I kinda hijacked this thread. I did not try to piss anyone off I just spoke my mind/opinion. When we talk about how Bush stacks up we are discussing a serious political issue. I said before somewhere that I hate politics. They argue on and on and hate each other. If they don't have something to argue about they find something to argue about. Yes we are all(well most of us) American citizens. This is the United states of America and therefore we are all supposed to be united. When someone starts a political thread there will be disagreements just as politics have. What I hate about this is that I can't give my deep down honest opinion about Bush or whatever without being insulted or hated. And I absolutely hate making enemies regardless of who they are. I'm a peaceful person. After all we are all supposed to be united right. And once again I didn't say what I said to just piss people off, I just gave my honest opinion. :cool:

Foghorn

02-25-2004, 05:26 PM

Ok I've been watching this thread pretty closley for several days now and have tried to stay out of it for the most part. But now I have a few questions. The post seems to have turned into a Bush bashing thread. So if Bush is so bad, What makes Kerry better?? The fact that he served in Veitnam?? What would he do better if elected. I'm talking specfics. Look at his campaign so far, all I've heard from him is his war record and what we're supposedly doing wrong. I wanna know what he's gonna do about it. Bush has pretty much said what his plans are.... Keep fighting terrorism, and let the people decide if they wanna ban gay marriages by changing the constitution.

I'm tired of all the monday morning quarterbacking, I wanna hear why Kerry's better. What has he actually done??? Take care---Fog

Foghorn

02-25-2004, 05:28 PM

[QUOTE=ValkariaKid]"Behind him 100%" ????
You can't be serious.

George W. Bush Resume

Past work experience:

-Ran for congress and lost.

-Bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas, company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.

-Bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using tax-payer money. Biggest move: Traded Sammy Sosa to the Chicago White Sox.

-With fathers help (and his name) was elected Governor of Texas.

-Accomplishments: Changed pollution laws for power and oil companies and made Texas the most polluted state in the Union. Replaced Los Angeles with Houston as the most smog ridden city in America. Cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas government to the tune of billions in borrowed money. Set record for most executions by any Governor in American history.

-Became president after losing the popular vote by over 500,000 votes, with the help of my fathers appointments to the Supreme Court.

QUOTE]

So what's Kerry's resume look like???

Foghorn

02-25-2004, 05:32 PM

Dirtdigger

02-25-2004, 05:37 PM

1911copper

02-25-2004, 05:51 PM

The UN weapon inspectors were there for a long time, and didn't find them.
We have been there for the past year with unlimited access 24/7 and haven't found them either.

You post a story that states that the WMD's were moved into Syria well before the war began.

OK... so if Syria had them why did Bush & co say that Iraq had them and posed the "imminent threat to the US" when they didn't?

I see... so I was right. The murderer in my analogy IS INNOCENT. I guess I have to hand hold you through this. If Saddam moved his WMDs to Syria, he could have waited until he thought the coast was clear and retreived them at a later date of his choosing- comprende?

What about Rummy saying "We know he has them, and we know where they are"?

Okay, hold my hand again. Have you ever considered that our military intelligence could have been erroneous, or dated, and Bush acted on said information in good faith?

You put quite a spin on things to justify, and protect your lousy choice for POTUS.

I'm not sure that's me you're quoting.

So we are only "making an example" by capturing SH?

I thought we were there to defuse this huge "imminent threat".

Wouldn't capturing OBL be a better choice to make an example out of?

The goal was to get both. As soon as military intelligence gets their hands on a crystal ball and a magic wand, they'll be able to satisfy you.

Talk about going in circles here! How many times are the neocons and this administration going to change the reason why we're in Iraq?

I thought it quite amusing when Tim Russert spoke to Dubya on "Meet The Press" last week and the prez said that SH was a "gathering threat" to his neighbors, and the world in general. That is sure a far cry from the s h i t he sold us to get support for this war!

No one is "changing" the reason for the war, we are merely stating the obvious: that there are multiple reasons for us being there, and multiple benefits for our doing so. That Iraq is was a threat is only one of many.

From:
imminent threat to the United States
To
gathering threat to his neighbors

You can call me whatever name you want (leftist, liberal, ...) , post as many theories you want everyone to believe, bash whomever is candidate that will replace Dubya, demean anyone that doesn't agree with you or points out faults in your blindness, but in the end it will not change the fact that George Bush and his administration lied to us.

You still cannot prove that assertion. You're picking and choosing from the platform of the pro-war faction, then using parts out of context to say the remainder is a lie or contradiction.

*****On a side note*****
It's nice to see that even republicans in congress are now seeing how dangerous the president it by not granting him the amendment that bans gay marriages in haste.

"compassionate conservative" my ass!

I see. So if republicans in congress disagree with the President, its because he's dangerous? Then judging by the actions of republicans in Congress during the previous administration, Clinton must have been the most dangerous president in history.

1911copper

02-25-2004, 05:54 PM

Posi muy kurutz e poyubi moyu gusitsu! :histerica

Tienes la dearrhea de la boca.

94_chickentaco

02-25-2004, 05:57 PM

1911copper

02-25-2004, 05:58 PM

Yeah the only thin you can criticize X40ozcasualtie79 about is his misspelled words or typing errors.

Misspelled words and typing errors? Is that all? Maybe you could make sense of that jumbled mess, I couldn't.

Everything else is pretty much true. You people are not fighting for my freedom. You took it away. I assmune you are all white. I am too. If you are white then you are not an American. You are only American if you're a Native American which would mean this is your native land. I happen to be part Native American an this is my country which you stole from my people hundreds of years ago. You all fly your flag because it represents false security. That flag don't mean anything to me The land does. So therefore I pledge no alegience to a anything that represents stolen property.

:histerica

Zero credibility. What freedom has been taken from you, Disney kid?

Foghorn

02-25-2004, 06:03 PM

Because Democrats have never sent troops to their deaths and lied to the American people. [Cough, hack... Vietnam..... /hack..../cough]

BTW, Kerry is a Skull & Bones member just like Bush. He went to the same school, had the same royal upbringing and he will lie right to your face.

Even if I hated bush,

Having an enemy you know is better than having one that you dont know.
Wan't Clinton around during Somalia?? Lost alot of good guys because the administration would not allow the use of appropriate air cover for the operation. Ie....apache gunships and c-130gunships........

I agree with everything else you said though.....Fog

Foghorn

02-25-2004, 06:08 PM

Fog , never said Kerry was better . My feeling Bush lied to us as far as the war , and is doing the American people a mis-service by the way he is handling the economy . If the polls are correct though , we 'll find out everything we want to know about Kerry next January . :shrug

Cool, I may have misinterupted some of what i've been reading, Thats why I decided to ask.....Thanks---Fog :beer

ValkariaKid

02-25-2004, 06:12 PM

The post seems to have turned into a Bush bashing thread.
Did you like it better the way it started?

So if Bush is so bad, What makes Kerry better??
He's not Bush!

Bush has pretty much said what his plans are.... Keep fighting terrorism,
What about getting OBL?
That was Job#1 not liberating Iraquis, and getting his revenge while he and his buddies profit handsomely in the process.

and let the people decide if they wanna ban gay marriages by changing the constitution.
He's not letting anyone decide if they want to ban gay marriages!
He already made that decision for us and is pushing to amend the Constitution as we speak. The king has spoken.

I have no love for Kerry, but I'm his biggest fan because he has the best shot at sending the current king back to Tejas.

The only issue I'm concerned with is that Kerry is not Bush.
Kerry is the lesser of two evils, and will do a lot less harm to our great nation than Dubya already has.

94_chickentaco

02-25-2004, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by metalhead
Everything else is pretty much true. You people are not fighting for my freedom. You took it away. I assmune you are all white. I am too. If you are white then you are not an American. You are only American if you're a Native American which would mean this is your native land. I happen to be part Native American an this is my country which you stole from my people hundreds of years ago. You all fly your flag because it represents false security. That flag don't mean anything to me The land does. So therefore I pledge no alegience to a anything that represents stolen property.

Your wrong Fool, the British stole it from you, then we kicked their asses and took it from them.

Thats OK, i understand your upset. Let us give you homes, money hospitals, free dental, medical, money and totally provide all the military protection you can imagine. Sounds good to you? even better, NO taxes. Us Americans will pay for all this so you can be happy on your own land. Will that make things better? You can do whatever you want with your own land, we respect the fact that natives were here first. Unlike the British who could give a crap.

Dirtdigger

02-25-2004, 06:16 PM

Because Democrats have never sent troops to their deaths and lied to the American people. [Cough, hack... Vietnam..... /hack..../cough]

BTW, Kerry is a Skull & Bones member just like Bush. He went to the same school, had the same royal upbringing and he will lie right to your face.

Even if I hated bush,

Having an enemy you know is better than having one that you dont know.

First American killed in Nam .........1947 .First service men sent to Nam to "train South Vietnamese troops ".....1956 . That my friend was Eisenhower .

94_chickentaco

02-25-2004, 06:25 PM

He's not letting anyone decide if they want to ban gay marriages!
He already made that decision for us and is pushing to amend the Constitution as we speak. The king has spoken

As for this Gay marriage deal,

Correct me if I am TOTALLY WRONG here dude, but dubya is refusing to Amend the constitution which has outlawed gay marriages for 200 years.

If you want Gay Marriages legal than lobby like everyone else does to amend the constitution. You cant just break the law and ignore the constitution like the Mayor in SF and Mass are doing now. Due process takes time, you cant just demand it like a bunch of whining babies. Hire lobbyist and lawyers like everyone else. Secondly, this "stunt" of giving out illegal marriage licenses reflects poorly on the gay community. It is an obvious controversy thrown into effect during an election year to target Bush as the bad guy.

Bush didnt start this fight, the Gay community did. And by breaking the law they went about their quest in a haste which does resemble a monkey fawking a football. The liberals put the spurs to the Gay community to take immediate action and demand results. Which, is truly sad. Because is looks unorganized and illegal, and obnoxious. You cant just demand BUSHY change the constitution. I have nothing against Gays getting married, good for them. But, to be honest they went about it the wrong way and were totally used by the democrats as an election year tool.

It will be legal soon, it just takes time. BTW-> Clinton upheld the ban too.

Foghorn

02-25-2004, 06:25 PM

[QUOTE=ValkariaKid]Did you like it better the way it started?----Yep, it was alot more civil.

He's not Bush!---Good for him

What about getting OBL?
---Seems to me we're still looking.

He's not letting anyone decide if they want to ban gay marriages!
He already made that decision for us and is pushing to amend the Constitution as we speak. The king has spoken.

---Who passes a constitutional amendment??? I thought it took a vote from each state.(thats us)**edit** 38 states must ratify the amendment befoer its official

QUOTE]

I don't know how to seperate it out like you guys are doing...Someone wanna PM instructions???? Fog

94_chickentaco

02-25-2004, 06:32 PM

First American killed in Nam .........1947 .First service men sent to Nam to "train South Vietnamese troops ".....1956 . That my friend was Eisenhower .

He was out in '61. JFK and lyndon B kept our boys over there for too damn long. C'mon now, you know that.

metalhead

02-25-2004, 06:36 PM

Misspelled words and typing errors? Is that all? Maybe you could make sense of that jumbled mess, I couldn't.

:histerica

Zero credibility. What freedom has been taken from you, Disney kid?
Hey Fuzz, maybe you should get the f uck off this thread and go to the "flame Here" thread. Oh yeah grab a dohnut while you're at it, f uckin PIG!!

Dirtdigger

02-25-2004, 06:45 PM

He was out in '61. JFK and lyndon B kept our boys over there for too damn long. C'mon now, you know that.

All I said was Eisenhower sent the first REAL deployment of troops over there . Yes we were there too long . Over 56,000 dead service men too long . Understand my position , ANY president , republican or democrat that misuses our military is a piece of shit ! And deserves to be removed . It is ironic , the two presidents I dislike the most are from Texas and both are / were under the assumption that they need not answer to anyone . We'll see .

Dirtdigger

02-25-2004, 06:55 PM

Hey Fuzz, maybe you should get the f uck off this thread and go to the "flame Here" thread. Oh yeah grab a dohnut while you're at it, f uckin PIG!!

This kinda shit really helps ! Who do f_ck do you think you are ! Your a 20 year old punk that is still wet behind the ears . You do no one any good with your inflammatory remarks . Everyone is free to say what they want , but out of respect , we TRY to keep it civil . Mods I think it is time to lock this one up .

Bobby

02-25-2004, 07:03 PM

Hey Fuzz, maybe you should get the f uck off this thread and go to the "flame Here" thread. Oh yeah grab a dohnut while you're at it, f uckin PIG!

Hey Metalhead Are you you gonna take your ball home with you or can we still play??? :shrug

metalhead

02-25-2004, 07:07 PM

This kinda shit really helps ! Who do f_ck do you think you are ! Your a 20 year old punk that is still wet behind the ears . You do no one any good with your inflammatory remarks . Everyone is free to say what they want , but out of respect , we TRY to keep it civil . Mods I think it is time to lock this one up .
I'm disney Kid remember. :wacko
I didn't start this copper did.
This just shows how you like Bush, you're all being just like him because you like to start uneccessary conflicts and make enemies.

Bobby

02-25-2004, 07:13 PM

This just shows how you like Bush, you're all being just like him because you like to start uneccessary conflicts and make enemies.

Maybe it was because of this,

F*uck the military
F*uck the government
Unless you fought in the revolutionary war or WWII you have nothing to do with my rights to say whatever I want. Those rights were established long before any of us were ever even thought of.

those Quotes I believe were from you metal head

:duh

94_chickentaco

02-25-2004, 07:25 PM

It is true that if you're white you're not truely american. You're an american citizen and that's a government issue there. America and Americans were here long befrore our government took it over.

Mr. Metalhead, what you've just typed is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Bobby

02-25-2004, 07:31 PM

:rockon billy madison

ValkariaKid

02-25-2004, 07:33 PM

I see... so I was right. The murderer in my analogy IS INNOCENT.
ummm... I didn't actually read your analogy because it had nothing to do with the president lying to us about why we're in Iraq.

I guess I have to hand hold you through this. If Saddam moved his WMDs to Syria, he could have waited until he thought the coast was clear and retreived them at a later date of his choosing- comprende?
Well having WMD's in another country sure doesn't sound like an 'imminent threat' to me. (Even if it is true that they were moved to Syria... no proof of that yet)
Again if Rumsfeld knew where the WMD's were why are we in Iraq if you say they're in Syria?
Which is it?

Okay, hold my hand again. Have you ever considered that our military intelligence could have been erroneous, or dated, and Bush acted on said information in good faith?
No because erroneous, and dated info should not be relied on as a cause to go to war.
We had accurate, up to date info from the UN weapon inspectors, but the bushies chose to ignore it. The CIA and the DIA both provided accurate assesments of the Iraqi WMD programs. The White house didn't like those assesments, and so established their own agency (Office of Special Plans) which generated the analasys the White House was looking for to justify going to war.

Too bad we'll probably never find out exactly what intel the Bush admin. received because they're all busy dodging the investigation into it.
***scumbags!***

The goal was to get both. As soon as military intelligence gets their hands on a crystal ball and a magic wand, they'll be able to satisfy you.
No the goal was to "bring the evil-doers' responsible for the attacks on 9-11 to justice".
SH was not responsible for 9-11.
No crystal ball or magic wand needed.

No one is "changing" the reason for the war, we are merely stating the obvious: that there are multiple reasons for us being there, and multiple benefits for our doing so. That Iraq is was a threat is only one of many.
Oh it's obvious now what the reasons were.
Too bad the rest of America, and the UN wasn't let in on them when both Powell, and Bush made their pleas for approval for the invasion.
I guess those reasons must've slipped their minds at the time.

BTW
Who are you talking about when you say "WE are merely stating.." ?

Originally Posted by ValkariaKid
From:
imminent threat to the United States
To
gathering threat to his neighbors

You can call me whatever name you want (leftist, liberal, ...) , post as many theories you want everyone to believe, bash whomever is candidate that will replace Dubya, demean anyone that doesn't agree with you or points out faults in your blindness, but in the end it will not change the fact that George Bush and his administration lied to us.
You still cannot prove that assertion. You're picking and choosing from the platform of the pro-war faction, then using parts out of context to say the remainder is a lie or contradiction.
What can't I prove?.. the lies or the backpeddling by Bush & co.?

I see. So if republicans in congress disagree with the President, its because he's dangerous?
No but being a "compassionate conservative" that he claims to be hastily trying to force an amendment through congress without any judicial review whatsoever that is based solely on his own religious and moral beliefs that takes away our freedoms granted to us in the constitution that is supposed to be his job to protect is extremely dangerous!