351W Timing Chain/Gear Drive [Archive] - FSB Forums

: 351W Timing Chain/Gear Drive


Red91XLT
02-15-2010, 01:41 PM
Okay, I have a 1994+ 351W in my 1991 with a bad timing chain. I am considering replacing it with a Gear Drive instead of a double roller. I have heard the arguments over the noise that it makes (Remember the last thread on this, Gacknar's "WRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR" ... lol) and I'm willing to live with it.

The only thing that's making me hesitant to just go ahead & buy one is this.
Our SummitŪ gear drives are great for you folks who want better timing and a choice of "noisy" or "quiet" operation. Their dual-idler design has CNC-machined components and they are easy to install. Each set comes with a pressed-in Torrington bearing or an SAE 660 bronze thrust washer (varies by application), as well as a cam gear that allows for timing adjustments in two-degree increments. These drives fit under your stock timing cover and come complete with instructions. Minor machining is required on models with the bronze thrust washer.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G6711-Q/


Does anyone know if my engine is (or probably does) have a bronze timing gear? Is there any way to tell without pulling the timing cover off? I'd rather not have to tear into it until I have replacement parts, but I may have to.

Also, what kind of Machining is necessary if I do have a bronze thrust washer? What kind of money am I looking at spending, and would I have to pull the engine to have it machined (I'm almost positive I would)?

DGW1949
02-15-2010, 01:59 PM
If your engine is wore to the point that it needs a new timing chain set, you got's bigger fish to fry that what type of cam drive to use. Save your money for upcoming repairs, install a Clowes True Roller chain set and be done with it.

Just my 02 .

DGW

Red91XLT
02-15-2010, 02:08 PM
If I go with a double roller chain, it will be a Cloyes true roller. The 1994+ 351W are Hydraulic Roller Cam engines and require a steel dizzy drive gear as the the camshaft is made of a harder tool steel. My truck has destroyed two cast iron dizzy gears and it's been due to timing chain slack. Engine still runs damn strong for having a bad timing chain, but it needs to be replaced.

sackman9975
02-15-2010, 02:15 PM
James, save your money and just get another chain and gear set.

Red91XLT
02-15-2010, 02:20 PM
Think so, Scott? I guess you know best :beer

sackman9975
02-15-2010, 02:29 PM
Think so, Scott? I guess you know best :beer

Yes. A new chain will go another 150k plus. You honestly think the motor will hold up that long? It just might, but save that money to make it better. A gear drive isn't gonna give you any more power than the chain. It'll be more accurate later in life, but really, save the cash. The chain went tired, the motor will too someday.

Red91XLT
02-15-2010, 02:36 PM
I know I need a rebuild, but you know me... money's always an issue LOL... Hopefully, I'll find higher paying work in the spring and make enough to start the rebuild and lift process.

Any particular chain & gear set you recommend?

I was looking at this one: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-3535X9/

sackman9975
02-15-2010, 02:54 PM
Clowes true rollers are nice, but honestly I'd go to O'rielys or Napa and just pick up a double roller chain. I wouldn't even worried about it being a "true" roller. Last one I bought was like $40 (O'rielys). That will suite you just fine.

Now, make sure when your scraping your gaskets off the block to stuff some rags into the oil pan opening to catch debris from causing a major meltdown after its all back together. Use a shop vac to suck all the debris off the rags before removing the rags.

Red91XLT
02-15-2010, 03:00 PM
I'd like to go with a Billet Steel cam gear if it all possible, but I have nothing against Napa parts. Stranger things have happened to me and I may not be able to afford a rebuild when I like, so I'd really want to insure maximum life of the timing chain and gears. Wonder if napa carries one with a billet steel cam gear?

BB33's
02-15-2010, 08:32 PM
I'd like to go with a Billet Steel cam gear if it all possible

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-C3057K/
Cloyes Brand - Check
Double Roller - Check
Billet Steel - Check
Affordable? - Damn Straight

Same on I'm putting in my rebuild and was recommended to me by two seprate engine builders with a combined 60 years experience.

Red91XLT
02-15-2010, 10:43 PM
I saw that one, it was first choice, but cam sprocket's cast iron. ;)

SigEpBlue
02-15-2010, 10:52 PM
I like the Sealed Power stuff myself. OE quality, easy to find.

95F1504x4EB
04-13-2010, 07:35 PM
I saw that one, it was first choice, but cam sprocket's cast iron. ;)

I was just on Cloyes website and they say "Sprockets Are Made From High Alloy Steel". :shrug Do we "have" to have a steel cam sprocket on the roller engines?

I am gonna be replacing my timing chain when I go in to replace the leaking timing cover gasket on my 95. I was also thinking about getting the OE replacement Cloyes C3057K double roller set.

I've been reading some old threads and some have said that the "true" roller chains stretch too fast. Does this apply to the OE replacement chain above?

Would there be any advantage in going with the Cloyes C3206 silent type chain, or is it garbage?

My engine is stock and will be for a while. Thanks.

broncoflorida
04-13-2010, 09:01 PM
I perfer the edelbrock street legal setup. Cost form summit is around $45-50 dollars.

SigEpBlue
04-13-2010, 09:38 PM
Would there be any advantage in going with the Cloyes C3206 silent type chain, or is it garbage?

This is the old-style Morse chain link. They're preferred on a daily driver, for durability and noise reasons, IME.

RLKBOB
04-15-2010, 03:25 AM
Don't put gears on, stick with a chain. I put on a true roller setup when I built my 351 and had to modify my cam thrust plate. Easy and didn't cost a thing. Here's some pics to show you exactly what needs to be done just FYI.

here's what it looks like stock
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/173790/fullsize/dsc00004.jpg

This view shows the cam gear won't go on all the way b/c the torrington bearing is hitting the thrust plate bolt heads.
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/173791/fullsize/dsc00010.jpg

Here's the thrust plate after machining, just need to countersink the holes.
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/173794/fullsize/dsc00025.jpg

installed and everything went together fine.
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/173795/fullsize/dsc00028.jpg

SigEpBlue
04-15-2010, 05:21 AM
Groovy mod, Bob. :thumbup So simple, it makes me wonder why Ford didn't do that in the first place.

351w500
04-15-2010, 10:46 AM
Why is billet better than iron when it comes to the gears anyways, isn't it the actual timing chain that goes ta hell ?

DGW1949
04-15-2010, 12:41 PM
Why is billet better than iron when it comes to the gears anyways, isn't it the actual timing chain that goes ta hell ?

The thing here is that wear metals have to be compatable or you'll experience premature failure of one (or more) componants. Hence your need to keep replacing distributor gears.
You may also note that even when these metals ARE compatable, the action of one part riding, rubbing, sliding against and/or rolling across the other establishes a wear pattern on both. That wear pattern WILL effect the service life of one componant IF we replace it and not the others. In other words, it is prudent to replace your timing gears & chain as a set. And FWIW...no, it aint just the chain that wears. Gears wear too. In fact, if you install a new chain onto the old gears, the new chain will not have proper tooth contact which in turn will cause the little rollers to wear out faster than before.
Far as modern timing chains needing a steel gear goes...yes they do. Otherwise, as you have seen with your steel cam & iron distributor drive, the steel will eat-up the iron.

If I seem to be repeating myself here, it's 'cause I am. Reason is, this is important stuff to know when we set about selecting engine parts, replacing wheel bearings, power train parts, gears and stuff.

Hope this helps.

DGW

Gacknar
04-15-2010, 01:08 PM
The 1994+ 351W are Hydraulic Roller Cam engines and require a steel dizzy drive gear as the the camshaft is made of a harder tool steel. My truck has destroyed two cast iron dizzy gears and it's been due to timing chain slack.Am I missing something here :shrug


Ohhhh....

And by the way.....





WHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!

What??? I can't hear you over the sound of how cool my gear drive is!!


WHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!






I just ran a standard double roller from Crane on mine. :whiteflag

351w500
04-15-2010, 08:34 PM
A friend of mine had a gear drive in a 350 that he built, He loved it for about a week... 3 weeks later he removed it.

RLKBOB
04-15-2010, 09:39 PM
I've said it before but it's been quite a while so I'll say it again for the new crew. Besides gear drives being loud they will also cause premature wear of your valve train. The chain can't transmit lower engine harmonic vibrations to the cam and valve train but solid gears being in direct contact will and this causes wear of the valve train. If you look at serious racers they have gotten away from gear drives a long time ago, they now use heavy duty timing belts for this reason(and probably some others too).

Red91XLT
06-12-2010, 08:09 PM
Bumping for help!

Bought the new chain today, getting everything put back together..... and I realize I don't know how to remove the oil seal in the timing cover. Help?

For sake of factor, I bought a Cloyes Roller from O Rielly auto for 27.99, comes with a lifetime warranty = Awesomeness (Did I mention I LOVE warranties?)

Whoring pics for the sake of a bump... (sorry for shitty camera phone pics)

Hiteck-Rednech-Mississippi-Air-Conditioned-Car-Port
http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp285/th3jessejames/Bronco%20stuff/0611101509.jpg

Old Chain
http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp285/th3jessejames/Bronco%20stuff/0612101535.jpg

Slack in old chain
http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp285/th3jessejames/Bronco%20stuff/0612101535a.jpg

Old and new Cloyes
http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp285/th3jessejames/Bronco%20stuff/0612101731.jpg

New Chain
http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp285/th3jessejames/Bronco%20stuff/0612101903.jpg

And a pic of the timing cover with seal, and new seal.... Help please?
http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp285/th3jessejames/Bronco%20stuff/0612101904.jpg

Red91XLT
06-12-2010, 09:33 PM
Nevermind... I went Cave Man on that shit with brick mason's chisel and got it out without damaging the race. Now... Just to find someone with a press.......

SigEpBlue
06-12-2010, 10:32 PM
A press? Just use a plastic mallet.

Red91XLT
06-13-2010, 12:38 AM
Think so? I guess I'll lay a steel plate, or a 1" thick piece of wood over it and beat it in..

SigEpBlue
06-13-2010, 01:08 AM
That's what I've always done. Just make sure you don't get it cock-eyed and smack it hard. It's about the same as a wheel seal if ya think about it.

Red91XLT
06-13-2010, 10:23 PM
it's done. I ran it just to make sure tonight. No leaks, No low oil pressure, no problems.

Tomorrow, I'll dial in the timing and buy some some high octane gas and some fuel treatment to level out the half tank of year old gas I have. It's BP grade 87 octane, if that means anything to anybody?

rhauf
06-13-2010, 10:31 PM
Ahh good, you went with a double roller.

i have a pet peeve on those gear drive timing sets (At least the "noisy" ones) to me, something intensionally mis-machined for the purpose of making noise is garbage. now quiet gear drives are another story.. heck, a lot of old manufacturers used to put stuff out stock with gear drive (my old internationals for instance are gear drive) isn't the 300 I6 also a gear drive cam factory?

SigEpBlue
06-13-2010, 11:03 PM
Ugh, year-old fuel? Get rid of it, man. You can't straighten that junk out with higher-octane fuel.

Red91XLT
06-14-2010, 12:29 AM
Ugh, year-old fuel? Get rid of it, man. You can't straighten that junk out with higher-octane fuel.

Yeah........ but that's a half tank.. and where as I don't mind refilling it (now that I can afford full tanks), I just don't want to hassle with emptying it.

Anyone want some FREE gas?

(offers and exclusions do not apply, fuel is one year old BP 87, come take with you!)