Ford TFI Ignition Control Modules [Archive] - FSB Forums

: Ford TFI Ignition Control Modules


Seattle FSB
10-16-2010, 05:15 PM
Updated 04/01/2012

I have compiled a list of TFI Ignition Control Module Part Numbers.


Distributor Mount Gray TFI-IV "Push Start" ICM
Ford Bronco - Wiring Schematic (http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/TFI_harness.gif)

Motorcraft - DY1074 (supercedes DY425)
Ford - 5U2J-12A297-AA, 5U2Z-12A297-A
Wells - F121
Niehoff - FF409
BWD - CBE24
Standard - LX218
NapaEchlin - TP31
Delphi - DS10051
Transpo - FM425
MSD - 83648 (Made by Transpo above)


Remote Mount Gray TFI-IV "Push Start" ICM
Ford Bronco - Wiring Schematic (http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/remote_TFI_harness1.gif)

Motorcraft - DY1075 (supercedes DY533)
Ford - 5U2Z12A297B (supercedes E8DZ-12A297-A)
Wells - F125
Niehoff - FF411
BWD - CBE33
Standard - LX226
NapaEchlin - TP33
Delphi - DS10053
Transpo - FM533


Distributor Mount Black CCD "Computer Controlled Dwell" ICM
Ford Probe, Taurus, Tempo, Sable, Topaz - Wiring Schematic (http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/TFI_harness2.gif)

Motorcraft - DY552
Ford - E9DE-12A297-A2A
Wells - F152
Niehoff - FF419
BWD - CBE51
Standard - LX244
NapaEchlin - TP57
Delphi - DS10054
Transpo - FM552


Remote Mount Black CCD "Computer Controlled Dwell" ICM
Ford Bronco - Wiring Schematic (http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/remote_TFI_harness2.gif)

Motorcraft - DY1077 (supercedes DY679, DY667, DY645)
Ford - 5U2Z-12A297-D (supercedes F1PZ-12A297-A)
Wells - F139
Niehoff - FF413
BWD - CBE40
Standard - LX-241
NapaEchlin - TP29
Delphi - DS10056
Transpo - FM544


I am fairly confident in my research, except for the non-Bronco Distributor Mount Black CCD ICM. I do not believe that the Bronco ever came with this so another Ford ICM is subsituted. What I looked for was a 6+3 Pin "Black" Ford TFI Ignition Control Module and crossed referenced it to other brands.

--------------------------------------------------

TFI Parts References:

Motorcraft/Ford Parts (http://www.fordparts.com/Default.aspx)

Wells Online (http://www.wellsve.com/ecatalog.html)

Niehoff Online (http://www.niehoff.com/)

Borg Warner Online (http://www.bwdbrand.com/Online%20%20Catalogs-eCatalog/Content.aspx)

Standard Online (http://www.standardbrand.com/Online+Catalogs-eCatalog/Content.aspx)

Napa Online (http://www.napaonline.com/)

Delphi Online (http://go.delphi.com/cs/welcome.aspx)

Transpo Electronics (WAI Global) (http://www.transpo-usa.com/)

World Power Systems Aftermarket Buyers Guide (http://www.wai-wetherill.com/wps_aftermarket/87-701-07_Buyers_Guide.pdf)


TFI General Information:

Ford TFI modules: Gray or Black? (http://www.myo-p.com/Ford-EEC/EEC%20Help%20files/Files/TFI_grey_or_black.html)

FORD IDM Fault Codes After Module Replacement (http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/TFI_Tips.pdf)

Ford Fuel Injection - TFI Comparison (http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/compare_TFIs.gif)
Note the "reversed" TFI pin numbers compared to the Ford EVTM. Pin 1 should be PIP.

Remote TFI Distributor Connectors (http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/remote_TFI_connectors.gif)

TFI Troubleshooting Worksheet (http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/832321/fullsize/tfi-worksheet.jpg)


TFI Upgrade Kits:

The Ranger Station - Remote Mount TFI Installation (http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/remote_tfi.htm)

McCully Racing Motors - TFI Relocation Kit (http://www.mccullyracingmotors.com/index_files/tfikits.htm)

FORD 5.0 TFI Module Remote Kit (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-2-3-5-0-TFI-MODULE-REMOTE-Kit-Turbo-SVO-xr4ti-2-3L-/310261410974)

Mustang 5.0 TFI Module Relocation Kit (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MUSTANG-5-0-TFI-MODULE-RELOCATION-KIT-GT-LX-SALEEN-87-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem483ca38dceQQitemZ31025 4996942QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries)

Ford TFI module relocation project (http://www.howardsupply.com/ford-merkur-xr4ti/ford-merkur-tfi-module-problems.htm)


TFI Connectors and Wiring:

The Repair Connector Store - Electronic Ignition Repair Connectors (http://www.repairconnector.com/categories/ELECTRONIC-IGNITION-REPAIR-CONNNECTORS/)

Source Products - Ford Harness Connectors (http://www.source-products.com/public_html/pigtail/ignition.htm)

RJM Injection Technologies - Pigtails and Connectors (http://rjminjectiontech.com/?p=10)

'94 code 212 mystery IDM Resistor ??? (http://fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127508&highlight=TFI+Mystery)

another maf conversion question (http://fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=179464&highlight=TFI)



Please assist me with any corrections as I think this list would be a great sticky.

JKossarides
10-16-2010, 05:25 PM
AWESOME Brother, way to go.....:thumbup

miesk5
10-17-2010, 07:14 AM
yo, GOOD Work!

If this helps, keep it here or have a mod del it so, I don't add to da confusion

Gray or Black? "Pattern Failures in the modules; driveability & no - start problems.
Most technicians who deal with Ford driveability and no-start problems have become very familiar with the Thick Film Ignition (TFI) system. Ford started using the six-pin TFI module with the EEC-IV computer system in 1983, and for years it remained basically unchanged. The early TFI system, which Ford calls the "Push Start" TFI system, uses a gray TFI module. Originally, the module was mounted on the distributor.
In the late '80s Ford began to relocate it away from the distributor on some vehicles to provide better protection from the effects of engine heat, but system operation remained the same. It uses a Hall effect pickup (stator) in the distributor, which generates a battery voltage, 50% duty cycle square wave, called the PIP signal, to the EEC-U PCM and the TFI module. The PCM processes this signal and sends out another battery voltage, 50% duty cycle square wave, called the SPOUT signal, to the TFI module. As long as the TFI module is receiving a SPOUT signal, it will fire the coil at the rising edge of that signal (except during engine cranking, when SPOUT is ignored) and the vehicle will run with the amount of timing advance commanded by the computer.
If the TFI module does not receive the SPOUT signal, it will fire the coil at the rising edge of the PIP signal, a nd the vehicle will run at base timing. This is true on all TFI systems.
Ignition dwell with the Push Start (gray module) system is controlled by the TFI module alone, and increases with engine rpm. The Ignition Diagnostic Monitor (IDM) signal on a Push Start TFI system comes from the coil negative circuit and is filtered through a 22k ohm resistor to pin #4 on the EEC-IV computer. The computer monitors this circuit to verify a coil firing for each PIP signal, and sets codes if it sees missing or erratic signals. Another feature that is unique to the Push Start TFI system is the start input on pin #4 of the module connector. This is wired into the starter relay trigger circuit, and signals the TFI module that the engine is cranking. When the module sees battery voltage on this circuit, the SPOUT signal is ignored.
In the early '90s, Ford began using a different TFI system on certain vehicles--the Computer Controlled Dwell (CCD) TFI system. The TFI module on CCD TFI is always black in color.
There are a few major differences between the two systems. As the name implies, with the CCD system, the computer controls primary dwell. The CCD TFI module still ungrounds (fires) the coil at the rising edge of the SPOUT signal, but now the falling edge of the SPOUT signal (which had no meaning to the Push Start TFI module) is used by the CCD TFI module to ground the coil. The PIP signal remains the same 50% duty cycle square wave, but SPOUT signal duty cycle varies according to how much dwell is desired by the computer.
Another major difference between the two systems is the IDM circuit. Pin #4 on the CCD TFI module, which was the start circuit input on the Push Start TFI module, is now the IDM signal, sent directly from the TFL module to pin #4 on the EEC-IV computer. This signal is still a filtered (low voltage) version of the ignition primary waveform, but is filtered internally in the TFI module rather than through an external resistor. There isn't any start circuit input to the CCD TFI module; the module infers engine cranking from a low rpm input from the PIP signal.
Since these two TFI systems are so significantly different, yet so similar in appearance, parts application problems will inevitably occur. A gray Push Start TFI module will plug right into a CCD system, and vice versa. To make matters worse, parts books are often incorrect on TFI module applications!

With the incorrect TFI module installed, the vehicle will run, but driveability and MIL (malfunction indicator lamp) problems will result. For instance, if a gray Push Start TFI module is installed in a CCD system, the computer will not be able to control ignition dwell, and the MIL will illuminate with memory codes for the IDM circuit set, as the gray TFL module is incapable of generating an IDM signal to the computer. If a black CCD TFI module is installed in a Push Start system, dwell will remain fixed, since the SPOUT signal duty cycle never changes.
If in doubt about which TFI module belongs on a particular vehicle, consult the ignition system wiring diagram for the vehicle. If the wire going to pin #4 on the EEC-IV computer comes directly from pin #4 of the TFI module, it is a CCD system. If not, it is a Push Start system.
A final note: As with every other rule, there is an exception. Some 1.9L Central Fuel (throttle body) Injected Escorts and Tracers were built with black TFI modules that are not CCD modules. If you encounter one of these, check the engineering number on the module. A CCD TFI module engineering number always starts with E9 or higher.
Written by David Sill, IDENTIFIX Ford Team Leader. Dave is a certified Ford EEC, Advanced Engine Performance Specialist, ASE Master and L 1. He is a graduate of Ford's ASSET Program and has 14 years of diagnostic repair experience...";
Source: by David S in Motor Service, June, 2001 via web.archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20040828142618/www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQA/is_6_80/ai_76665483)

miesk5 NOTE; use BLACK modules in 1994-1996 Broncos

Fireguy50
10-17-2010, 05:31 PM
I use this brand ONLY and suggest others do as well.
http://oldfuelinjection.com/images/ford-motorcraft_logo.gif
Motorcraft - DY425
obsolete and superseded by DY1074
Motorcraft - DY533
obsolete and superseded by DY1075
Motorcraft - DY679
obsolete and superseded by DY1077
I am fairly confident in my research, except for the non-Bronco Distributor Mount Black CCD ICM. I do not believe that the Bronco ever came with this so another Ford ICM is substituted. What I looked for was a 6+3 Pin "Black" Ford TFI Ignition Control Module and crossed referenced it to other brands.
I use Distributor Mount Black Motorcraft-DY552 on my OBD-II EEC-V truck

B-man
10-17-2010, 08:34 PM
Motorcraft will be going in mine as well.

DY1077.

Thanks for the information Seattle and others.

Seattle FSB
10-18-2010, 12:23 AM
I use Distributor Mount Black Motorcraft-DY552 on my OBD-II EEC-V truck

So, the DY552 should work on my OBD-I EEC-IV MAF after the required wiring upgrade. Correct?

And thanks for the additions!

Fireguy50
10-18-2010, 12:43 AM
Typically the black TFI is used remote mount.
I only use the DY552 because I have an older (1985-91) distributor, and I'm doing new product testing with the newer 1996 OBD-II fuel injection.

Seattle FSB
10-18-2010, 08:50 PM
I know, I should be using the remote mount TFI ICM if, for anything else, for the easily found replacement units. I have only had one distributor mount TFI failure and I blamed that on my MSD Ignition that catastrophically failed. Problem is finding a remote mount heatsink... :doh0715:

Fireguy50
10-18-2010, 09:50 PM
those are easy to find, Ford used them on all their vehicles in the mid 90's

B-man
10-18-2010, 10:05 PM
I know, I should be using the remote mount TFI ICM if, for anything else, for the easily found replacement units. I have only had one distributor mount TFI failure and I blamed that on my MSD Ignition that catastrophically failed. Problem is finding a remote mount heatsink... :doh0715:

Heatsink? Is that the metal harness the TFI goes into? I saw a few of those at the yard if that is it.

I think I am gonna have to fender mount mine as well. If that is all I have to do and then I don't have to get a new Dizzy, I am all for it.

Shit, upon reading this thread again and Miesk's excellent information, Looks like I am ripping open my harness, finding a remote mount harness and repinning for my new CCD TFI.

My truck is doing EXACTLY what is being said in Miesk's thread.


Back to the JY. Seattle, if I find two of those mounts, do you want me to grab ya one?


Course, now I need to figure out how my dizzy is gonna work? ****, looks like another dizzy may be in order as well?

Shadofax
10-19-2010, 02:57 PM
remote mount neihoff gray is ff411

Seattle FSB
10-19-2010, 04:58 PM
remote mount neihoff gray is ff411

I am unable to locate that part number. Can you show me confirmation and I will change it.

Thanks!

Shadofax
10-19-2010, 05:10 PM
I can take a pic of the top of the box showing neihoff control module and the part number. It's gray and is definitely a TFI module. Unfortunately for me, whereever I bought it from, it apparently is not the exact one for my '95 ford, which stock says motorcraft and is remote mounted and black, though it's the exact same size/appearance.


Quick search for ya:

http://frugalmechanic.com/auto-part/niehoff-ff411---ff411?bq=neihoff+ff411+control+module

the site says it will fit a 90-96 bronco among other things.

SigEpBlue
10-19-2010, 10:41 PM
It's so unfortunate that the catalogs in virtually every auto part store, real and online, list the wrong ignition control module for those of us with 1994+, or TFI-CCD, trucks. The 'quick-fix' solution is to purchase an ignition control module for a 1994-5 5.0L Mustang GT, as that application also uses the remote-mount black (CCD) module. Coincidentally, they also use the same EVR as our trucks, and their PCMs also share much of their programming strategy 'methodology' with ours, but that's just bonus info.

:toothless

Nice work so far, guys!

This is probably an addendum bit of information for diagnosis, but it is important: the most-common cause of ignition control module failure is bad spark plug wires and/or opens in the secondary ignition system. Almost every time I've replaced an ignition module, I've replaced the plugs, cap, rotor, and wires, if they hadn't been replaced recently.

In addition, the ignition coil should also be tested. While it's not really a 'scientific' test, the fastest and easiest method to check an ignition coil (and the ignition module, in a way) is to install a NEW spark plug in the distributor end of the coil wire, rest its shell on a bare-metal part of the engine, and then have someone crank the engine while holding the accelerator all the way to the floor. The last part is to prevent the injectors from firing (also known as 'clear-flood mode'). Anyhoo, the spark kernel at the spark plug MUST be white to blue. Any other color (usually orange, yellow, or red) indicates a weak coil, or possibly bad coil primary or battery/engine ground connection(s).

I usually recommend this 'active' test, instead of using a simple DVOM to measure primary and secondary resistance, as a) the resistance ranges for a 'good' coil are too wide, and b) a weak coil can, and does, often test 'good' in this method. Applying voltage and observing the resulting spark kernel color has been successful for me, 100% of the times I've used it.

B-man
10-20-2010, 08:53 AM
Didn't you relocate your IDM/TFI to the Fender Sig?

If so,what was all involved? Did you have to get a new dizzy? One with the harness coming off of it? Or, did you open up your existing harness and re route wires?

I think this push start IDM I have is my MAIN culprit as to why my rig is running weird. So, I am in the process of relocating my IDM/TFI to the remote kind.

SigEpBlue
10-20-2010, 09:06 AM
No, my Bronco had a remote module from the factory. I did, however, have to rewire a bit when I converted to a mass-air PCM. The 'start' signal line is capped off, and the IDM line now goes directly from the ignition module to the PCM -- none of that IDM resistor nonsense running all the way back from the ignition coil.

B-man
10-20-2010, 09:15 AM
Gotcha.

I think I found some more information on how to do this relocate.

http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/remote_tfi.htm

I am hoping I can do the same as this write up has done.

Seattle FSB
10-20-2010, 09:34 AM
Didn't you relocate your IDM/TFI to the Fender Sig?

If so,what was all involved? Did you have to get a new dizzy? One with the harness coming off of it? Or, did you open up your existing harness and re route wires?

I think this push start IDM I have is my MAIN culprit as to why my rig is running weird. So, I am in the process of relocating my IDM/TFI to the remote kind.

I think I will be changing to a remote mount as well. This will require changing to a Black "CCD" 6+3 Pin TFI Module and modifying the wiring by changing the "Start Signal In" on pin #3 of the TFI Module to "IDM Out", bypassing the 22K ohm resistor, which is sent directly to Pin #4 of the EEC computer. Note that you will still use the wiring for the Distributor Mount TFI below.

http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/compare_TFIs.gif

http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/TFI_harness2.gif



But when using a Black "CCD" 6 Pin TFI Module, the wiring change is much more extensive. Note the 8 Pin Connector.

http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/remote_TFI_harness2.gif

See these TFI wiring links:

'94 code 212 mystery IDM Resistor ???
(http://fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127508&highlight=TFI+Mystery)

another maf conversion question (http://fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=179464&highlight=TFI)

Also see the many links I added in the main post above.

B-man
10-20-2010, 10:49 AM
It's the way we have to go I believe.

I am hittin the JY this weekend, Seattle. Do you want me to get an extra heat shrink if you can't find one? I am gonna get a couple of IDM's as well. I can't afford new at the moment so I am hoping to get lucky.

Let me know.

Seattle FSB
10-20-2010, 02:19 PM
It's the way we have to go I believe.

I am hittin the JY this weekend, Seattle. Do you want me to get an extra heat shrink if you can't find one? I am gonna get a couple of IDM's as well. I can't afford new at the moment so I am hoping to get lucky.

Let me know.

That would be great! Also, look for the section of harness to the TFI. Inside is specific EMI aluminum shielding for the PIP, SPOUT & IGN GRD wires that will be useful if you have to extend your existing harness.

B-man
10-20-2010, 03:33 PM
That would be great! Also, look for the section of harness to the TFI. Inside there is specific EMF aluminum shielding that will be useful if you have to extend your existing harness.

No problem. I will see if I can get lucky and find two harnesses as well. I should have a wide selection considering I don't have to look for a specific vehicle. I can look at the trucks and cars for this.:rockon

B-man
10-23-2010, 03:33 PM
Well,

Not much luck at the JY's today.

I did find a "complete" fender mounted IDM. But, it was on a 93' Thunderbird V6. I grabbed it for the heatsink and I thought that maybe since it has the Black IDM module, I might luck out? But, I don't think so. None of the threads I have have searched online say that we Bronco guys can use it. Let alone from a V6? Does it really make a difference? I can't go by the auto store's online parts catalog. They state that a 93' Thunderbird does use the DY1077 but, can I trust that? It looks like the wiring is the same for the TFI's, but, I don't know.

Seattle. It was slim pickins man. I will go back again in a week or so and see if I can find one for you. There were two other thunderbird v6's but, the wiring was hacked and the heatsinks were gone.

Here is what I grabbed today.


http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/832642/fullsize/idm-ignition-001.jpg


http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/832641/fullsize/idm-ignition-002.jpg

Seattle FSB
10-23-2010, 07:08 PM
I spent the other day at the JY as well going through about 30 Taurus parts cars. Surprisingly, no luck on the heat sink but I did get several feet of EMI protected wire. Has everone gobbled up the heat sinks, or what? Well, off to another JY tomorrow.

It appears much simpler to use a Distributor Mount 6+3 Pin Black Module on a modified remote heat sink. This would be in addition to a "dummy" Distributor Mount TFI used simply to pass the PIP Signal from the distributor to the three top pins on the actual remote TFI. Then you could use your existing MSD 8452/8453 distributor with minimal wiring harness changes.

But I think I may more correctly install a MSD 8451 Ford TFI EFI 351W Remote Module Pro-Billet Distributor (http://www.msdignition.com/Products/Distributors/Ford/Street/Strip/8451_-_Ford_TFI_EFI_351W_No_Module_Pro-Billet_Distributor.aspx) and fabricate my own harness extension wired to use a 6-Pin Black Module.



Regarding 6+3 Pin Distributor Mount Black TFI Modules, any of the following should be OK (obviously unless you choose to go the 6-Pin route):

Motorcraft
DY-552

Ford
E9DE-12A297-A2A
E9DF-12A297-A1A
E9DF-12A297-A2A
E9DZ-12A297-A

These are used on:
(1992-90) Ford Probe
(1995-89) Ford Taurus
(1994-92) Ford Tempo
(1995-89) Mercury Sable
(1994-92) Mercury Topaz



Regarding 6-Pin Remote Mount Black TFI Modules, any of the following should be OK (obviously unless you choose to go the 6+3 Pin route):

Motorcraft
DY1077 (supercedes DY679, DY667, DY645)
DY679
DY667
DY645

Ford
5U2Z-12A297-D (supercedes F1PZ-12A297-A)
F1PF-12A297-AA
F1PZ-12A297-A
F1SF-12A297-C1A,
F1SF-12A297-C2A
F1SZ-12A297-C
F2FZ-12K072-AA
F2SZ-12A297-A
F32Z-12K072-A

Mazda
ZZM1-08-033A

These are used on:
(1997-91) Ford Aerostar
(1993-92) Ford Bronco
(1996-92) Ford E Van
(1996-92) Ford F-Series Pickup
(1995-94) Ford Mustang
(1996-93) Ford Probe
(1997-91) Ford Ranger
(1995-91) Ford Taurus
(1997-91) Ford Thunderbird
(1994-91) Lincoln Continental
(1994) Mazda B3000
(1995-91) Mercury Cougar
(1995-91) Mercury Sable

B-man
10-23-2010, 07:21 PM
You know what.? I am thinking Im gonna do the same bro.

Since I found the whole harness, I should be able to plug and play? I have the connector all the way to the heat sink. And Then I need to repin the PIP and SPOUT, IDM into the PCM.

I am on this. Seems a little more convenient and then I will sell my other dizzy.

Seattle FSB
10-23-2010, 08:43 PM
Look at the schematics and TFI pinout chart very closely, paying special attention to the distributor connector and the fact that the schematic for the Gray Distributor Mounted Module shows the connector inverted. I can tell that I will be moving very slowly with this, probably with assistance...

This is why I considered the 6+3 Pin CCD Upgrade with the "dummy" Distributor Mount TFI, which does look fairly straight forward.

The 6-Pin TFI Upgrade looks a little more challenging and it doesn't necessarily appear to be "plug and play". :toothless

B-man
10-23-2010, 11:32 PM
So, with my dizzy, I may be better inclined to just run 3 wires from the dizzy to the remote mount IDM? I guess the 94-95 Mustang GT's have the correct module? It seems so hit and miss. If that would work and I could avoid 290 bucks for a new dizzy, that would work. I just want to make sure I do it correctly. And seeing that the ****ing part numbers can't be trusted by the parts stores, I am skeptic, to say the least. I started to look at all my wiring and such. LOL, My wires don't match shit to what is in my Haynes book. I seriously hope the previous owner didn't do something stupid, like Mickey Mouse the wiring. I don't think so, considering the rig was running before.

Back to researching before any big moves. I think maybe I will just order a 94-95 Mustang GT IDM and mount it to the fender wall with some wiring going back to my dizzy.

SigEpBlue
10-23-2010, 11:44 PM
Why is a new distributor $290? Seems a bit steep to me.

The 1994-5 Mustang GT application is correct for a remote-mount black TFI(-CCD) module.

Don't worry too much about doing it wrong. As long as you get it to the point that the signals critical to running the ignition system are at the correct pins, the worst you'll do is cause a DTC for 'loss of IDM signal' or something. Just verify your wiring is correct to the TFI connector, using voltage and continuity checks.

For others in the future, remember that this isn't just a switcheroo we're playing here. The black TFI modules are only to be used with a PCM that supports computer-controlled dwell (CCD), which is almost all 1994MY trucks and later.

theramsey3
10-24-2010, 12:04 AM
So, with my dizzy, I may be better inclined to just run 3 wires from the dizzy to the remote mount IDM? I guess the 94-95 Mustang GT's have the correct module? It seems so hit and miss. If that would work and I could avoid 290 bucks for a new dizzy, that would work. I just want to make sure I do it correctly. And seeing that the ****ing part numbers can't be trusted by the parts stores, I am skeptic, to say the least. I started to look at all my wiring and such. LOL, My wires don't match shit to what is in my Haynes book. I seriously hope the previous owner didn't do something stupid, like Mickey Mouse the wiring. I don't think so, considering the rig was running before.

Back to researching before any big moves. I think maybe I will just order a 94-95 Mustang GT IDM and mount it to the fender wall with some wiring going back to my dizzy.

What did the ECU you are using come out of?

With the right ECU(from a truck for sure) all you have to do is is put the black 6+3 pin dizzy mount ICM on your existing dizzy and re pin the harness to go to the proper pins on the computer. As SIG said don't worry too much. I gave you the pinout for the two ICM's go to fordfuelinjection.com for the ECU pinouts match them up and it will be CHEAP and trouble free. The PIP already runs to pin 56 on the ECU(nothing to change there). The only thing you really have to change is the IDM out( if I am not mistaken here correct me if I am wrong I think the black 6+3 module should be labeled IDM in on pin 4 of the ICM not IDM out. It is going to be sending a PIP signal to the ECU and receiving the IDM signal back to the ICM) on pin 4 of the ICM needs to go to pin 4 on the ECU it is a no brainer. Why are you trying to make it more difficult and expensive than it needs to be or has to be.

http://www.myo-p.com/Ford-EEC/EEC%20Help%20files/Stolen%20graphics/compare_TFIs.gif
http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/bronco_1995_21-1.gif

Seattle FSB
10-24-2010, 01:28 AM
theramsey3, I think you have the right idea with a 6+3 Pin TFI but you are showing him a 6 Pin TFI Schematic. I have posted a lot of new additional information in my original post.

The goal is to remotely mount the TFI from the hot area around the distributor to a cooler area such as near the air intake. Heat is known to create transient TFI issues, frequently with no codes, and my new performance 6.7L engine is creating a lot more heat than the previous stock 5.8L. I now have transient issues when warm and under load and the EGR, EVP, EVR, O2 Sensor, ECT, ACT and Base Timing all test fine. With no DTC codes, I am now focusing on the existing Push Start Distributor Mount TFI.

Please see the following TFI Relocation Kits for how straight forward a 6+3 Pin Remote can be. The kits only have a modified heat sink, 3-wire shielded harness and a "dummy" distributor mount TFI which allows the IGN GRD, RUN PWR and PIP to pass between the Stator and the 3 pins on the TFI.

TFI Upgrade Kits:

The Ranger Station - Remote Mount TFI Installation (http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/remote_tfi.htm)

McCully Racing Motors - TFI Relocation Kit (http://www.mccullyracingmotors.com/index_files/tfikits.htm)

FORD 5.0 TFI Module Remote Kit (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-2-3-5-0-TFI-MODULE-REMOTE-Kit-Turbo-SVO-xr4ti-2-3L-/310261410974)

Mustang 5.0 TFI Module Relocation Kit (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MUSTANG-5-0-TFI-MODULE-RELOCATION-KIT-GT-LX-SALEEN-87-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem483ca38dceQQitemZ31025 4996942QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries)

Ford TFI module relocation project (http://www.howardsupply.com/ford-merkur-xr4ti/ford-merkur-tfi-module-problems.htm)

http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/TFI_harness2.gif


With a 6-Pin Remote TFI, the wiring is a bit more complex because both the TFI and Distributor need IGN GRD and RUN PWR IN, not to mention that the PIP no longer passes through the TFI but travels from the distributor to both TFI Pin #6 and PCM Pin #56.

Note the 8-Pin Connector which is not used with the 6+3 Pin TFI...

http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/remote_TFI_harness2.gif

B-man
10-24-2010, 01:50 AM
The site that Seattle posted for the dizzy said 290.

But, after looking at my situation again. I am just going to get a 94-95 Mustang GT IDM. Get rid of the 22kz resistor. Make sure my pins are correct. Mount my remote heatsink, run three wires from the dizzy to the remote mounted IDM module and be done with it. I am still running the BIO0 ECM so, I am good there.

I ain't trying to make it more complicated. I just never trekked these waters before. I over analyze everything and then come back down to the simple.

cajunrebel
10-24-2010, 02:19 AM
I still have a TFI module from my 89 that should also have the heatsink attached. Its in my storage unit right now but I can get a picture or two tomorrow if anyone is hard up for one. I also have the entire wiring harness and the distributor as well.

Seattle FSB
10-24-2010, 02:58 AM
The site that Seattle posted for the dizzy said 290.

But, after looking at my situation again. I am just going to get a 94-95 Mustang GT IDM. Get rid of the 22kz resistor. Make sure my pins are correct. Mount my remote heatsink, run three wires from the dizzy to the remote mounted IDM module and be done with it. I am still running the BIO0 ECM so, I am good there.

I ain't trying to make it more complicated. I just never trekked these waters before. I over analyze everything and then come back down to the simple.

I don't think that the TFI ICM for a 94-95 Mustang GT will easily work in your plan due to this being a 6 Pin DY1077 or F1PZ-12A297A. SigEpBlue is correct that this is a Remote Mount CCD TFI Ignition Module, but it does not have the three pins on the side for the PIP, IGN GRD and RUN PWR. This is a 6 Pin TFI Module. The PIP signal goes IN Pin #1 of the Module which is separate from the PCM.

What you may be looking for is the DY552 or E9DE-12A297-A2A for the Ford Taurus and Tempo. This is a Distributor Mount Black CCD Ignition Module that can be adapted to a heat sink and remotely mounted. This is a 6+3 Pin TFI Module. The PIP Signal passes through the Module and goes OUT of Pin #1 to the PCM. Look again at the Remote Upgrade Kit links that I posted.

In this case (DY552), your existing Distributor Stator must generate and distribute the PIP Signal out to the TFI and PCM and transmit it through 3 wires as opposed to upgrading to an 8 Pin Connector. A 6+3 Pin TFI appears much easier to modify and wire than the 6 Pin TFI. Look at the schematics.

miesk5
10-24-2010, 07:38 AM
yo,
MODULE (For Remote Mount)
DY-552
Replaces: (E9DZ-12A297A)
Domestic Car — Distributorless Ignition
FORD.............................................. .........1995-90
Domestic Car — Solid State Ignition
FORD.............................................. .........1994-89
MERCURY ................................................19 95-91
http://www.dragtimes.com/images-classifieds-large/Motorcraft-DY552-DY-552-Ignition-Module-E9DZ-12A297-A-for-sale_260594245069.jpg
All MY and model apps in:
Ignition Components, Wire & Cable, Battery Cables, Rotating Electrical (Starters, Alternators, Window & Wiper Motors, etc.), Windshield Washer Pumps, Wiring Harness Accessories, etc. Parts Catalog, Bronco/Ford truck & all Fords w/Ford Part Numbers, Illustrations & Cross Ref (54 pdf file, slow to load)
Source: by fordinstallersupport.com (http://www.fordinstallersupport.com/files/catalogs/ewc200.pdf)

Seattle FSB
10-24-2010, 11:25 AM
Thanks miesk5! I believe that is the TFI that B-man wants for a straight forward upgrade.

B-man
10-24-2010, 11:44 AM
Yep, sure is. I am heading back to the JY to hopefully get a few (in case one is bad) I would love to get a new one. But, that will have to wait until more funds.

I will then follow the schematics as well as the the link mentioned above: http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/remote_tfi.htm


I do have one question, on the 6+3 pinout for the Taurus, where does the "TACH" wire go to? http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/TFI_harness2.gif

I see it is tied into PIN 5 on the module, but, to where? does it go the 3-prong plug? Do I have to relocate with this mod? Or, do I leave my already in place TACH wire alone? I realize the wire would have to be shortened or extended, whichever applies, but, I don't see it in my pin configuration I am using from Ford Fuel Injection.. I will check my Haynes manual again as well.

Seattle FSB
10-24-2010, 12:12 PM
I will then follow the schematics as well as the the link mentioned above: http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/remote_tfi.htm

Keep in mind that the above Ranger Station link is for moving a "Push Start" TFI to a remote location. It is the same idea, except you will be changing to a Black "CCD" TFI Module and modifying the wiring by changing the "Start Signal In" on pin #3 of the TFI Module to "IDM Out", bypassing the 22K ohm resistor, which is sent directly to Pin #4 of the EEC computer. Or just disconnect and cap the wire and run a new wire between TFI Pin #3 and PCM Pin #4. And then run a 3-wire harness from the Distributor Stator (PIP, RUN PWR & IGN GRD) to the three pins on top of the new TFI. The only other variable is if you will have to extend any harness to reach your new remote location.

I do have one question, on the 6+3 pinout for the Taurus, where does the "TACH" wire go to? http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/TFI_harness2.gif

I see it is tied into PIN 5 on the module, but, to where? does it go the 3-prong plug? Do I have to relocate with this mod? Or, do I leave my already in place TACH wire alone? I realize the wire would have to be shortened or extended, whichever applies, but, I don't see it in my pin configuration I am using from Ford Fuel Injection.. I will check my Haynes manual again as well.

The Tach Wire comes from the Coil Negative. You shouldn't have to change a thing.

Before...
http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/TFI_harness.gif


After... (Mounted in a remote location)
http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/TFI_harness2.gif


Kinda' like this...
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/832761/fullsize/scan0002.jpg

B-man
10-24-2010, 02:38 PM
I picked up two IDM modules from a 95 taurus and 94. $9.45 cents total . Thanks for the schematic. I will hopefully be doing this this week.

Seattle FSB
10-24-2010, 02:55 PM
Not to throw a wrench in this, but my research shows both Gray "Push Start" and Black CCD remote TFI ICM's applicable to the 1995 5.0L F150 "WAY1" PCM.

Does it make a difference to the WAY1 PCM as long as it is wired correctly? Can any PCM control the Primary Dwell with a proper CCD TFI upgrade? :scratchhe

And why would a DY1077 be better than a DY679? What does "superceded" mean anyway? :scratchhe

SigEpBlue? Fireguy? Anyone?


(Note to self: You are spending entirely too much time on this...) :wowcb:

B-man
10-24-2010, 06:59 PM
Huh? LOL. Oh man. Not now. I don't have the WAY1, so I should still be okay.

SigEpBlue
10-24-2010, 07:28 PM
:rofl:

WAY1 and VEX1 (and a few others) are in the same 'strategy' as one another, but they ALL use TFI-CCD from what I can tell.

Just remember, if it's 1994 or later, as indicated by the PCM part number (F4TF-xx), it's safe to assume a CCD setup.

theramsey3
10-24-2010, 07:35 PM
I intentionally showed him the schematic to show him what is supposed to connect from the ignition module to the ECU.

What you guys are are telling him to do is what I was saying; although I actually wasn't aware of the 22k ohm resistor.

Seattle FSB I understand what you are saying but he is using the 6+3 ignition module right? what the heck do I need to see the 8 pin connector for it is irrelevant to this He only needs to remove the 22k ohm resistor, run a wire from pin 4 on the ECU to pin 4 on the ICM. Right? BTW which one of Ryan's diagrams are right if you notice in the pic of the modules I posted it shows the start in and IDM on pin 4 but the ones you posted it shows them on pin 3?

Seattle FSB
10-24-2010, 11:03 PM
:rofl:

WAY1 and VEX1 (and a few others) are in the same 'strategy' as one another, but they ALL use TFI-CCD from what I can tell.

Just remember, if it's 1994 or later, as indicated by the PCM part number (F4TF-xx), it's safe to assume a CCD setup.


Thanks, Sig. The WAY1 is a F5TF-12A650-JB, or 1995 strategy. I guess I was just stressed to confirm the proper TFI. Compusive, huh? But accurate, yea! Thanks again for the confirmation.


BTW which one of Ryan's diagrams are right if you notice in the pic of the modules I posted it shows the start in and IDM on pin 4 but the ones you posted it shows them on pin 3?

As I stated earlier, one of the schematics shows the TFI connector inverted. Note whether the location of the Connector "notch" is on top or bottom.

Look at the schematics and TFI pinout chart very closely, paying special attention to the distributor connector and the fact that the schematic for the Gray Distributor Mounted Module shows the connector inverted.

Little things like this can cost a guy an hour or two...


Seattle FSB I understand what you are saying but he is using the 6+3 ignition module right?

Nope. He was stating that he would use a TFI ICM for a 94-95 Mustang GT, which was a DY1077 or F1PZ-12A297A. This is a 6 Pin TFI ICM that would not work for the "simple" 6+3 Pin wiring upgrade you are refering to. How would the PIP Signal enter the TFI?

B-man
10-25-2010, 09:36 AM
Yes, sorry bout that all.

I was incorrect when I stated I was going to use the 94-95 Mustang GT IDM. I got my IDM's out of a 94 and 95 Taurus.

We are "actually" getting rain in Calif, well, rain for us Californians, eh Seattle? LOL.. So, working on the rig is on hold. Won't fit in the garage, too tall.

But, my next step in my rig is stripping down the wiring harness, finding the 22k resistor , and repinning the ECM. I have a new housing that doesn't have any broken pin holders.

If anyone needs one, I got mine here: http://www.mass-air.com/Products.htm

I will keep everyone posted with my progress.

theramsey3
10-25-2010, 04:30 PM
Ok then I thought he was still trying to keep his MSD dizzy he already had in the motor. I must have missed it where he wants to remote mount a 6 pin TFI. Sorry about that.

Seattle FSB
10-25-2010, 07:38 PM
Ok then I thought he was still trying to keep his MSD dizzy he already had in the motor. I must have missed it where he wants to remote mount a 6 pin TFI. Sorry about that.

No problem!

I believe that B-man is trying to keep his existing MSD 8453 Distributor along with remotely mounting a Black CCD ICM to protect it from heat. The easiest way is to use a 6+3 Pin Black CCD ICM, change the PIN #3 Start Signal wire IN to IDM wire OUT and run three shielded wires between the Distributor Stator and top 3 Pins of the new ICM. The Remote Upgrade Kits that I posted show this clearly.

You clearly have a grasp of the correct procedure for the TFI Upgrade. This can be confusing to most with the four different types of TFI ICM's.

Distributor Mount Gray TFI-IV "Push Start" ICM
Remote Mount Gray TFI-IV "Push Start" ICM
Distributor Mount Black CCD "Computer Controlled Dwell" ICM
Remote Mount Black CCD "Computer Controlled Dwell" ICM

As for me, I have been compusively studying all of the different options and thought I would post them for other's reference.

Thanks! :thumbup

B-man
10-26-2010, 10:50 PM
I have my wires ran from my dizzy to the fender mounted heatsink/IDM. I am going to be repinning my whole harness with a new wire holder in the next few days. By this Thursday, the rig should be ready to fire up.


Fingers crossed.

Seattle FSB
10-27-2010, 12:48 PM
After consulting with MSD Tech Support, I have received detailed information regarding their TFI ICM's and applicable cross-references. I hope this can clear up any questions and provide a useful reference to others.

MSD uses the same 9-pin TFI Ignition Control Module in all of their Ford TFI Pro-Billet Distributors, including the MSD 8452 (http://www.msdignition.com/Products/Distributors/Ford/Street/Strip/8452_-_Ford_TFI_EFI_351W_with_Module_Pro-Billet_Distributor.aspx), MSD 8453 (http://www.msdignition.com/Products/Distributors/Ford/Street/Strip/8453_-_Ford_TFI_351W_Pro-Billet_Distributor.aspx) and MSD 8456 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8456/). These are actually "Gray" Push Start TFI ICM's manufactured by Transpo Electronics (aka WAI Global) (http://www.transpo-usa.com/) located in Shanghai, China. They are black in color (instead of proper Gray) to match the color scheme of MSD products.

The MSD 8451 (http://www.msdignition.com/Products/Distributors/Ford/Street/Strip/8451_-_Ford_TFI_EFI_351W_No_Module_Pro-Billet_Distributor.aspx) and MSD 8455 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8455/), for a remote mount TFI Module, are wired for a 6-pin non-MSD "Black" CCD Module through an 8-Pin Ford Connector. Cross references for the Distributor Mount TFI ICM are listed below.


Distributor Mount Gray TFI-IV "Push Start" ICM
Ford Bronco - Wiring Schematic (http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/TFI_harness.gif)

Motorcraft - DY1074 (supercedes DY425)
Ford - 5U2J-12A297-AA, 5U2Z-12A297-A
Wells - F121
Niehoff - FF409
BWD - CBE24
Standard - LX218
NapaEchlin - TP31
Delphi - DS10051
Transpo - FM425
MSD - 83648 (Made by Transpo above)


The MSD Tech clearly understood the difference between "Push Start" and "CCD" ICM's and was prepared to answer my question. I have updated my original post to reflect this information. :thumbup

B-man
10-27-2010, 03:01 PM
Wait a second? So, my MSD IDM on my dizzy is computer controlled dwelled? Meaning all I have to do is remove the 22k harness and I should be good? Do I still repin #4 on my IDM to pin 4 on my ECM?


And, also, I have been running a CCD IDM system on my "Push Start" for 5 yrs now?


Now, I am nervous again. LOL.

Seattle FSB
10-27-2010, 05:33 PM
Wait a second? So, my MSD IDM on my dizzy is computer controlled dwelled? Meaning all I have to do is remove the 22k harness and I should be good? Do I still repin #4 on my IDM to pin 4 on my ECM?


Update: No. The MSD TFI ICM is a 9-pin Gray "Push-start" Ignition Control Module.

B-man
10-27-2010, 10:07 PM
Considering your driving a 1990 5.8L, I would say "yup". Repin TFI Pin #4 to PCM Pin #4...

This is what I was told "as of today". I would still use a Motorcraft ICM as I have had several MSD/Transpo ICM's fail. Call MSD and ask what kind of ICM you have in your 8453 and let me know what they say.

SWEET!!!..

I will call them and yes, I plan on using the Motorcraft one I got from the yard. The MSD will just be another backup. Kickass. I got a little wiring done tonight. Should be able to finish up tomorrow night and hopefully check for codes and fire this sombitch up. :thumbup

B-man
10-29-2010, 12:24 AM
Hope someone is still reading this.
Repinned my ECM tonight.

Gotta question about the PIN configuration from FFI about the reconfiging of certain pins to different pins.

This is the configuration I am referring to

http://fordfuelinjection.com/truckpinouts.html

On the config, it shows PIN's 23 for "KS 302 only" and Pin 24 for PSPS 302 only. . Well. I have a 351w but, I have those wires for the knock sensor. I don't need those for the MAF app according to the config.

Another one is PIN 45, for the MAP sensor. If I leave this wire in, will it confuse my ECM?

I didn't want to start another thread about this. So, hopefully someone sees this.

I also had an issue figuring out which Pin was PIN 4 is on my TFI plug. I am "hoping" it is the Red/Blue wire. But, I am not sure. It is not the tan white like in the book. It would be on the wrong pin.

Seattle FSB
10-29-2010, 01:29 AM
5.8L with a WAY1 PCM, correct?

If I recall, the 5.8L has no Knock Sensor, no Power Steering Pressure Switch and no MAP/BAP Sensor. The 5.0L WAY1 PCM has no Power Steering Pressure Switch or MAP/BAP Sensor, but it may have had a Knock Sensor. I have no Knock Sensor to ICM Pin #23 but I get no code?

Regarding the TFI Plug, look at the schematic below. See the orientation notch at the bottom of the TFI Module Connector? IDM Pin #4 is 4th from the top.

Then look at the TFI Comparison below the schematic and note that the TFI is upside down. IDM Pin #4 is 4th from the bottom. Just remember, PIP is always ICM Pin #1 on the EVTM schematics.

Didn't I say that some graphics are inverted? Again, orient yourself to the notch.


http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/TFI_harness2.gif

http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/compare_TFIs.gif

B-man
10-29-2010, 08:51 AM
Yes,

It hit me this morning to just put the ICM mod up to one of the pics to find PIN 4. This worrying is all just because of my lack of experience doing the wiring. And relying on too much info when the answer is right on those diagrams you have posted. I am learning a crapload and am glad I am doing it.

I am running the BIO0 ECM. Which is why I was wondering. I haven't put any of those pins back in. I will leave them out unless I pull a code from one of them today.

Thanks for all of your information and help with this Seattle.

B-man
10-30-2010, 03:15 AM
Welp,

Rig fired up on cue, good thing.


However, have the DTC 136 still. Lean O2 HEGO on left hand side. Brand new too. Possible HEGO is bad? Maybe.

Otherwise, Still fires up and ECM thinks motor is warm because it stays at idle 650- 700 rpms.

We time it and it is set at 13. Stroker motor and was happy at that . But, still, got a few gremlins to figure out.

Gonna drive it a little longer tomorrow, or today, LOL> And see what comes up.

Seattle FSB
10-30-2010, 03:47 AM
Some initial thoughts...

Is the Idle Air Bypass/Idle Air Controller (IAB/IAC) happy? Old or dirty? 10.5v from PCM? 7 to 13 ohms resistance?

Are you running stereo O2 sensors or your original single?

Bronco MAF w/OBD-I (WAY1/VEX1/AKC0) only requires 1 HEGO.
Bronco MAF w/OBD-I (BIO0) requires 2 HEGOs.
Bronco MAF w/Mustang PCM (A9L/A9P) requires 2 HEGOs
Bronco MAF w/OBD-II (1996) requires 3 HEGOs

Where is your ACT/IAT located? Intake manifold or pre-MAF Sensor?

Think of the bright side. You don't have an IDM code... :toothless

B-man
10-30-2010, 10:35 AM
LOL. Yep, no IDM Code.

I have two O2's. The right hand side one is older then the Left hand side one. The left hand side one was installed when the MAF upgrade was done. I re-bunged the 02's as directed, 3 inches down from the collectors.

The IAC is not old, but, not new either. That part has been tinkering around in the brain all night too.

I have to get out the Ohm meter and check resistance. Forgive me, but, how do you go about checking this? I have done the battery before, but, not the PCM?

The ACT is relocated to the airbox from the intake.

I also noticed that when my truck struggles to idle, the lights get dimmer? This is new. I am rechecking my battery connections and grounds this morning. Then, gonna take it for a spin to see if the rig still shrugs and sputters.

This has been fun, I tell ya. Trying to figure out these problems. I am learning alot about the rig.

The only downer is that it is rainy today and a great day to the trails for a little wheelin... The 4 yr old is dying to go.lol

Seattle FSB
10-30-2010, 05:21 PM
The IAC is not old, but, not new either. That part has been tinkering around in the brain all night too.

I have to get out the Ohm meter and check resistance. Forgive me, but, how do you go about checking this? I have done the battery before, but, not the PCM?

First, I would check for codes.

To test the IAC, turn the ignition on with the engine off and check the voltage at the IAC Connector for approximately 10.5v. This will show a proper signal from the PCM.

Next, check the resistance of the uplugged IAC at the two terminals for 7-13 ohms resistance.

Finally, remove and clean the IAC with carburator cleaner, if required.

SigEpBlue
10-30-2010, 05:52 PM
If it's one of the later model IACs, he's better off replacing it. They don't like carburetor cleaner for too long, or at least the internal dashpot and/or O-ring doesn't.

Here's some service documentation to back that up:
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/231296/thumbnail/iac-cutaway.jpg (http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/media/231296)

Regarding HO2S location, I've found better low-speed response positioning them about six inches from the end of the head pipes. YMMV.

B-man
10-30-2010, 08:03 PM
Took off my IAC. It was non clogged and looked clean. I also tested the resistance from the IAC, it was 10.4 ohms. So, between the 7-13, good there.

I also checked the volts coming in from the PCM. The book states approximately 10.5v . Mine was 11.86v? ..

I also tested the ACT plug. It was at 4.82v, the ACT itself was at .35ohms cold.


I did change my RH O2 sensor with a new sensor from a 95 Bronco. Made no difference and still have a DTC 136 code. "Always lean".

Rig sounds good. Still has the shifting issue. I am gonna rest on it for the rest of the day and research again later tonight and tomorrow. I am start to think that maybe my 02 sensor bungs are not positioned correctly? They are both at 3" from the collectors?

I am also going to start looking to replace my EGR to a Calif 95 EGR. I believe I need the thinner one now. And getting the rest of the actual emissions stuff I need. Maybe that will help

And I do have another BIO0 PCM I could throw in. But, I don't think the PCM in there is bad. ?

SigEpBlue
10-30-2010, 08:39 PM
Sounding like that right-side oxygen sensor signal isn't reaching the PCM. Maybe a loose or poor connection? :shrug

I'll have to go back through this thread and re-read it, methinks.

B-man
10-31-2010, 02:01 AM
I repinned my wires onto a new harness. Rechecked after. All made good connection. Is the DTC 136 a RH O2 fault? Or, could it be any side?

Got some more investigating to do.

Seattle FSB
11-02-2010, 02:02 AM
I have now received all of my items for my TFI ICM Upgrade. I will be going a slightly different route than B-man in that I will be using a 6 Pin CCD Remote Mount TFI ICM instead of a 6+3 Pin CCD Distributor Mount TFI ICM relocated to a remote area. I will also be using a new distributor instead of keeping my original one. My reasoning for doing this is standardization in lieu of simplicity, although either would accomplish the same goal.


First, I have accumulated the following parts:

EMI Shielded Wiring
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/834265/fullsize/p1010001.jpg


Motorcraft DY1077 (5U2Z-12A297-DA) TFI Ignition Control Module
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/834266/fullsize/p1010004.jpg


Ford Aluminum TFI Heat Sink Assembly (1994-95 T-Bird/Cougar)
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/834267/fullsize/p1010007.jpg


MSD 8451 Ford 351W Remote Module Distrubutor
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/834269/fullsize/p1010017.jpg


RJM Injection Tech 8-Pin TFI Distributor Connector
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/836708/fullsize/8pin-tfi-connector.jpg



My wiring plan is as follows:


TFI Re-wire (Distributor Mount Gray to Remote Mount Black)

TFI Pin 1 (PIP Out)

Old - TFI Pin 1 to EEC Pin 56

New - Distributor Connector Pin 8/4 to EEC Pin 56
and TFI Pin 1 (new PIP In)


TFI Pin 2 (SPOUT In)

Old - EEC Pin 36 to TFI Pin 2

New - EEC Pin 36 to TFI Pin 2


TFI Pin 3 (Start Signal In)

Old - 12v+ (Start Only) to TFI Pin 3

New - TFI Pin 3 to EEC Pin 4 (new IDM Out)


TFI Pin 4 (Run Power In)

Old - Ignition Relay to TFI Pin 4 and Coil+

New - Ignition Relay to TFI Pin 4 and Coil+
and Distributor Connector Pin 1


TFI Pin 5 (Coil Negative)

Old - TFI Pin 5 to Coil- and Tachometer
and EEC Pin 4 (IDM through 22k ohm resistor)

New - TFI Pin 5 to Coil- and Tachometer


TFI Pin 6 (Ignition Ground)

Old - EEC Pin 16 to TFI Pin 6

New - EEC Pin 16 to Distributor Connector Pin 7,
Distributor Connector Pin 3 to TFI Pin 6


Be advised there are ground connections to the Ignition Relay, Distributor Connector Pin 2/6 and the EMI Aluminum Shielding(s).


I am using the following references for this upgrade:

Ford EVTM

1990 Bronco Ignition Schematic - EVTM (http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/836734)

1990 Bronco TFI Connector - EVTM (http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/836735)

1995 Bronco Ignition Schematic - EVTM (http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/836736)

1995 Bronco TFI Connectors - EVTM (http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/836737)


Ford Fuel Injection

Distributor Mount Gray TFI-IV "Push Start" ICM Wiring Schematic (http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/TFI_harness.gif)

Remote Mount Black CCD "Computer Controlled Dwell" ICM Wiring Schematic (http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/remote_TFI_harness2.gif)

Ford Fuel Injection - TFI Comparison (http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/compare_TFIs.gif)
***Note the TFI pin numbers are "reversed" compared to the Ford EVTM.

Remote TFI Distributor Connectors (http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/remote_TFI_connectors.gif)



Sorry for the long post, but I am hoping that this can help someone else considering such an upgrade. I should get to this project fairly soon. Please post any opinions or errors that you see. :thumbup

B-man
11-02-2010, 09:08 AM
Good luck to ya SeattleFSB.

Pics of the repinning would be very helpful. Pics of the whole process would be ideal.

I think I have to repin something on mine. Although I disconnected my tan/yellow wire at the PCM (PIN 4) The 22k resistor is still in my wiring I think via the Tach to Coil and such., Should that resistor be removed COMPLETELY from the equation?

I just repinned my TFI PIN 4 to my PCM PIN 4 and thought that was the main PIN to rewire?

Seattle FSB
11-02-2010, 05:52 PM
I think I have to repin something on mine. Although I disconnected my tan/yellow wire at the PCM (PIN 4) The 22k resistor is still in my wiring I think via the Tach to Coil and such., Should that resistor be removed COMPLETELY from the equation?

I just repinned my TFI PIN 4 to my PCM PIN 4 and thought that was the main PIN to rewire?

In the following link, ou man found either a secondary 22k ohm resistor between TFI Pin 2 and the Tach, or a single shared resistor with the IDM.

'94 code 212 mystery IDM Resistor ??? (http://fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127508&highlight=Mystery+Resistor)

Two of the early posters state that they could not locate any resistor, but that was because they already had factory original Black CCD 1994/1995 TFI's. The third poster had been using a Black CCD TFI on a Gray Push Start system.

At the bottom of page 1, ou man was correctly upgrading from Push Start to CCD. Again, he also found the Tach wire to TFI Pin 2 also going through a 22k ohm resistor. After bypassing the IDM 22k ohm resistor and rewiring to TFI Pin 4, he doesn't say what he did with the 22k ohm resistor to the Tach, but it is my guess that he left it in place. It may be required for the 1990 Tachometer, as opposed to the 1992+ Bronco, as the 1992+ went to the PSOM which may have an internal resistor.

This is just a guess on my part as ou man was also upgrading a 1990 like both yours and mine. I would leave the resistor to the Tach, see what it does and check for codes.

Keep in mind we are not talking about the resistor and diode for the a/c clutch that SigEpBlue refers to in the second pic on page 2. When I get home tomorrow, I will look at the EVTM's as I have them for both the 1990 and 1995 Bronco.

B-man
11-02-2010, 06:34 PM
In my Hayes manual , it shows a 22k resistor for 90-91 and as well for 92 and up on 5.8 motors. I am gonna leave it considering I have seen no code come up for it.

Seattle FSB
11-02-2010, 06:43 PM
In my Hayes manual , it shows a 22k resistor for 90-91 and as well for 92 and up on 5.8 motors. I am gonna leave it considering I have seen no code come up for it.

You mean between TFI Pin #5 and the Tach?

Mmmmmm... Now that I think about it, the instructions are to "rewire the "Start Signal In" on pin #3 of the TFI Module to "IDM Out", bypass the 22K ohm resistor in the harness (as this is done internally on CCD), which is sent directly to Pin #4 of the EEC computer".

I guess it doesn't say to remove the resistor... :doh0715:

SigEpBlue
11-02-2010, 08:21 PM
Haynes manual is probably incorrect. There is no IDM resistor on CCD (1994+) applications. That's why the line goes directly from the ignition module to the PCM, bypassing all of that hoo-hah.

B-man
11-02-2010, 09:04 PM
Haynes manual is probably incorrect. There is no IDM resistor on CCD (1994+) applications. That's why the line goes directly from the ignition module to the PCM, bypassing all of that hoo-hah.

My wire does pass it now. I guess no worries.

SigEpBlue
11-02-2010, 11:17 PM
Yup, should be fine, as long as the original line running from the ignition coil negative (-) terminal with that IDM resistor is no longer connected to anything.

Of course, the 'regular' line running between the coil and the ignition module should still be intact, or you'd never get spark. :rofl:

NM, I'm going to confizzle myself and everyone else again. :eek:

B-man
11-03-2010, 08:55 AM
LOL, I understood ya.

Yes, I still have spark (although, I am suspect about the MSD coil, it's old), but, forgot to check that yesterday.

Today I will.

I still have a tach too, so guess I am good there. Just no 22k resistor going to the PCM any longer.

Seattle FSB
12-04-2010, 01:48 AM
Here is my Remote Mount CCD ICM Upgrade...


https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/840196/fullsize/tfi-icm-1.jpg


https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/840197/fullsize/tfi-icm-2.jpg


https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/840191/fullsize/tfi-harness-1.jpg


https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/840192/fullsize/tfi-harness-2.jpg


https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/840193/fullsize/tfi-harness-3.jpg


https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/840194/fullsize/tfi-harness-4.jpg


https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/840195/fullsize/tfi-harness-5.jpg



As you can see, I tried to place all ignition wiring in an independant harness. I haven't started the engine yet, waiting to finish the Electric Brake Booster Upgrade... :thumbup

Fireguy50
12-04-2010, 02:14 AM
If anyone needs one, I got mine here: mass-air.xxx
Boo :twak So you used all the diagrams on my free technical library, then spent money someplace else and recommend them :banghead

We always have more inventory
http://rjminjectiontech.com/?p=10

Seattle FSB
12-04-2010, 03:03 AM
Fireguy, your products and tech postings are immeasurable in their usefullness to a garage mechanic, like me. Your lack of enabling forces me to research and learn what I am doing. The products that you offer are frequently parts I cannot find anywhere else.

Thanks for the 8-Pin Ford Connector!!! Using it will allow me to easily change distributors in the future. :notworthy


Thank you again for all the assistance that you have offered to others as well as myself!!! :beer

B-man
12-04-2010, 10:27 PM
Boo :twak So you used all the diagrams on my free technical library, then spent money someplace else and recommend them :banghead

We always have more inventory
http://rjminjectiontech.com/?p=10

I apologize Fireguy. Quite honestly, I didn't know you carried them, otherwise, Of course I would of bought from your site. Like I will be buying other stuff from your site when the time comes. Your site is awesome. Much information.

Seattle FSB
12-04-2010, 10:38 PM
B-man, how is the Bronco running, post TFI upgrade?

miesk5
12-05-2010, 07:51 AM
yo,
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/833750/thumbnail/distributor9296.jpg (http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/833750_1)
92, 93, 93-1/2 Push Start: & 94, 95 & 96 CCD Diagrams in one nice bunch
by Ford via Steve83
w/CCD Test (http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/833750_1)

B-man
12-05-2010, 12:07 PM
B-man, how is the Bronco running, post TFI upgrade?

I haven't done my ECM tune yet, so, about the same. It is shifting to 4th to soon, but, idles good and is sorta smooth. Every once in a while the CEL comes on, then goes off, then comes back on again. Sometimes it stays off for a while. I am hoping by tuning maybe it will help with all of this. I picked up a Moates QuarterHorse for it and I just need to save some cash to purchase the Binary Editor. In the meantime. I am reading , reading, and reading on tuning.


I am quite happy that I successfully upgraded the TFI. No more worries about heat and it starts no problem. No hesitation at all.



How is your rig running?

Seattle FSB
12-11-2010, 08:32 PM
Fired the engine up today and it runs great! I could not get my customary ping "when warm and under load". The engine seems to have more performance and even sounds better! Clearly, I had an ignition issue.

I am wondering if it is the new CCD ICM or the new distributor. It was almost like the old Distributor Mount ICM would get hot and quit advancing the timing...

Either way, seems to be a great upgrade!

B-man
12-11-2010, 10:59 PM
Fired the engine up today and it runs great! I could not get my customary ping "when warm and under load". The engine seems to have more performance and even sounds better! Clearly, I had an ignition issue.

I am wondering if it is the new CCD ICM or the new distributor. It was almost like the old Distributor Mount ICM would get hot and quit advancing the timing...

Either way, seems to be a great upgrade!


Good to read man! Nice job!!

Seattle FSB
12-14-2010, 08:36 PM
Just a follow-up,

Had the Bronco on the DynoJet today. Clearly all of my problems were fixed with the new TFI upgrade. Runs fantastic!

Never had problems with the gray Distributor Mount Push Start TFI ICM until it ran on the hotter running stroker engine. SigEpBlue was once again correct with the black Remote Mount CCD TFI ICM upgrade!


http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/842167/thumbnail/dyno-12142010.avi (http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/842167)


+30% = 375 HP and 510 TQ :twotu:
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/842166/fullsize/dyno-12142010.jpg

TS 90F150
12-15-2010, 06:39 PM
Glad to hear things are working out for you. Is the hp/torque figures better than before too?? I don't remember your exact figures.

tim

B-man
12-15-2010, 11:06 PM
SeattleFSB,

Did you tune your PCM? Or, does the dyno do that?

Seattle FSB
12-16-2010, 02:50 AM
SeattleFSB,

Did you tune your PCM? Or, does the dyno do that?


The PCM had a temporary start-up chip when the engine was first fired by the engine builder. Then, Vince Gaglia of Trifecta Performance came in to work with the the truck on the DynoJet located at Marysville Speed n' Custom. His job was to establish a custom tune and burn a permanent chip. The engine was running on his portable laptop and there were many dyno sensors connected. The engine builder and I were onsite to consult with the tuner to ensure that he understood both the application and build specs of the engine.

Subsequent dyno's are just to see where the engine is at regarding HP, TQ and AFR. It doesn't change the tune. To alter my PCM parameters would require another custom tune, unless I install an on-board programmer. Since a professional tune costs $500-$800, depending on the experience of the tuner, you have to really want or need it. On the other hand, a dyno run costs $125 and is informational only.

Anyway, several months later the Bronco dropped from 11.5 mpg to 9 mpg and started to have pinging episodes "when warm, under load". The engine felt lacking at low and mid range and the trans felt sluggish to downshift. A subsequent dyno showed a loss of 10 hp at WOT.

I slowly went through every applicable sensor even though I was not getting any OBD trouble codes. I was almost down to questioning the tune, centering on the programmed intake air temperature parameters, but before going in that direction I wanted to do a TFI ICM upgrade to CCD even though I had no history of problems with the gray Push Start ICM. New MSD Distributor, custom harness, CCD ICM, heat sink and Motorcraft Coil.

Bingo! Regained 10 hp at WOT and the engine now runs great throughout the performance curve. I'll bet my mpg returns as well. My guess is that the new stroker is generating much more heat which then started to affect the ICM.

Anyway, thats my story and I'm sticking to it... :toothless

SigEpBlue
12-16-2010, 03:10 AM
Mmm, I love a flat torque curve! :hump

B-man
12-16-2010, 09:41 AM
The PCM had a temporary start-up chip when the engine was first fired by the engine builder. Then, Vince Geglia of Trifecta Performance came in to work with the the truck on the DynoJet located at Marysville Speed n' Custom. His job was to establish a custom tune and burn a permanent chip. The engine was running on his portable laptop and there were many dyno sensors connected. The engine builder and I were onsite to consult with the tuner to ensure that he understood both the application and build specs of the engine.

Subsequent dyno's are just to see where it is at regarding HP and TQ and doesn't change the tune. To do that you would have to pay for another custom tune or have your own on-board programmer.

Anyway, several months later the Bronco dropped from 11.5 mpg to 9 mpg and started to have pinging episodes "when warm, under load". The engine felt lacking at low and mid range and the trans felt sluggish to downshift. A subsequent dyno showed a loss of 10 hp at WOT.

I slowly went through every applicable sensor even though I was not getting any OBD trouble codes. I was almost down to questioning the tune, centering on the programmed air intake temperature, but before going in that direction I wanted to do a TFI ICM upgrade to CCD even though I had no history of problems with the gray Push Start ICM. New MSD Distributor, custom harness, CCD ICM, heat sink and Motorcraft Coil.

Bingo! Regained 10 hp at WOT and the engine now runs great throughout the performance curve. I'll bet my mpg returns as well. My guess is that the new stroker is generating much more heat which then started to affect the ICM.

Anyway, thats my story and I'm sticking to it... :toothless

LOL, Cool man. Glad to hear you got it all figured out.

I am getting closer to getting my PCM tuned via the Moates QH. Waiting on funds for the Binary Editor license.

I am still having a weird, very strange Coolant leakage issue. I won't drive it for a few days. And I will have a puddle under the truck, Not a huge puddle. I thought I had a warped head, or the head bolts came loose, but, that wasn't the case. Seems it is leaking somewhere in the front of the rig and finding it's way towards the back of the block. I found antifreeze on my timing cover driver's side. But, no leaks to see from maybe the upper rad hose or those smaller hoses that connect to the water pump. No water coming out of the water pump either. Seems my fan clutch is good as well. I retightened all of my hose clamps. Check for little , little leaks, Nothing. Doesn't overheat, course, I haven't driven that much to get the rig real hot. If I drive it for a bit, then park it, no coolant leakage, Only a few days later will the coolant appear on the ground. LOL. Weird , I tell ya.

I am thinking it is about time to replace all the coolant hoses and maybe get my radiator tested. I have a 4 core all steel radiator in there now that I have never been happy with and have questioned it's quality.

Back to the drawing board.

Seattle FSB
12-29-2010, 07:39 PM
Update, I just returned from a Christmas trip to Cali post TFI upgrade.

Old mpg: 9.5 highway
New mpg: 12.63 highway :bday

Engine Coolant Temperature Gauge never left "N".
Transmission Temperature Gauge never left 150.
Oil Consumption: Zero
Engine Ping: None
Diagnostic Trouble Codes: None
Power Stroke Diesels Passed: 12

Engine ran smooth and strong throughout the 1500 mile trip. :twotu:

digitalbliss
12-29-2010, 09:15 PM
Quick question for all you TFI gurus out there. I have a 95 XLT 5.8L and I could have sworn that i saw a gray remote TFI installed. I'll have to check again tomorrow when there is light. But does this make sense? Should it be a push start on a 95? or should it be a black CCD? Thanks.

SigEpBlue
12-29-2010, 09:23 PM
It should be black. Maybe the previous owner popped the wrong module in place? :shrug

digitalbliss
12-29-2010, 09:40 PM
It should be black. Maybe the previous owner popped the wrong module in place? :shrug

Thanks Sig, I'll give her a look tomorrow. hopefully i just had a moment of color blindness... or shading blindness... or whaterver :doh0715:

Seattle FSB
12-29-2010, 10:13 PM
I should say that Motor City Manufacturing (http://www.motorcityreman.com/fooee7e8.html) lists a Gray Remote Mount ICM for the following vehicles:

(1996-88) Ford E Van
(1997-88) Ford F-Series Pickup
(1990-88) Ford Taurus
(1990-88) Ford Thunderbird
(1991-88) Ford Truck Series 500
(1990-88) Lincoln Continental
(1990-88) Mercury Cougar
(1990-88) Mercury Sable

Some ICM manufacturers, such as Standard (http://www.standardbrand.com/Online+Catalogs-eCatalog/Content.aspx) and Borg Warner (http://www.bwdbrand.com/Online%20%20Catalogs-eCatalog/Content.aspx), even list a gray Push Start ICM for the 1995 Bronco 5.8L. Fact is many ICM parts lists are inherently incorrect due to changes Ford made after the infamous class action lawsuit and subsequent inconsistent model changes.

With that being said, I agree with Sig that your 1995 5.8L Bronco should require a black ICM. My 1995 F150 5.0L PCM is factory programmed for a black CCD ICM.

As previously discussed, the best way to determine which ICM your vehicle is wired for is to check the wiring of the vehicle. If pin #3 of the module gets a start signal (which should be battery voltage) from the starter circuit, it's a gray "Push Start" system. On the other hand, if pin #3 of the module is wired directly to pin #4 of the PCM, then it's a CCD system. This should be the same for either the distributor mount or remote mount ICM.

SigEpBlue
12-29-2010, 10:32 PM
The sad thing is that I've written to a few part suppliers about the listing errors and consequences. They don't seem to give a shit.

Seattle FSB
12-29-2010, 10:44 PM
For a little entertainment on the topic, see this actual debate between several Ford parts guys...

Interchangability of Ignition Module (http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/756920-interchangability-of-ignition-module-4.html) :histerica :scratchhe :banghead

B-man
12-29-2010, 11:33 PM
Thanks Sig, I'll give her a look tomorrow. hopefully i just had a moment of color blindness... or shading blindness... or whaterver :doh0715:

Is your rig acting up? Do you have any symptons of a bad TFI? I would leave it if not.


Good to read about your trip FSBSeattle!:thumbup

January is close! Getting ready to tune my rig. I hope it helps.

digitalbliss
12-29-2010, 11:53 PM
Is your rig acting up? Do you have any symptons of a bad TFI? I would leave it if not.


Good to read about your trip FSBSeattle!:thumbup

January is close! Getting ready to tune my rig. I hope it helps.

So I decided to go out to look at it, cause it was bugging me not knowing. I took my Big light out and noticed that it is indeed a black TFI. I must have seen the clip before, which is gray.

Well it hasn't acted up in about a month. It died on me after a 2 hr road trip, I didnt have the time to diagnose it, so I took it to a trusted shop. He replaced the ECM and an injector and called it good. I didnt know about the TFI at the time and am now thinking that maybe it was the culprit the whole time. I want to do a little preventative maintenance anyway, so i figured I'd take it in to get tested.

B-man
12-30-2010, 09:36 AM
I would take the one you have and replace it with the same one. If it's been on the vehicle since it rolled off the lot, it couldn't hurt and it ain't gonna cost as much as an ECM and some injectors. But, if it were the culprit, and if you have been on any long hauls since the ECM replacement, it possibly would of acted up by now. And being that it is not by any heat since it is on the fender, it may not be bad. I guess, test it out and see what is up. Can you test those TFI's?

digitalbliss
12-30-2010, 09:56 AM
I would definitely replace it with the same one, or the motorcraft equivalent. I havent been on any long hauls since the ECM was replaced, it is my DD but I work 5 min down the road from my house and the bko doesnt get to see many trips over a 30 min. drive. I was under the impression that they could be tested, although I have never done it. I guess I'll find out soon enough.

digitalbliss
02-01-2011, 09:46 AM
I would take the one you have and replace it with the same one. If it's been on the vehicle since it rolled off the lot, it couldn't hurt and it ain't gonna cost as much as an ECM and some injectors. But, if it were the culprit, and if you have been on any long hauls since the ECM replacement, it possibly would of acted up by now. And being that it is not by any heat since it is on the fender, it may not be bad. I guess, test it out and see what is up. Can you test those TFI's?

A bit of an update, I replaced my TFI with a new one. Thanks to you guys' research, I was able to buy the correct module. I went into a local parts store with the part number in hand. None of the chains had a DY-1077 (black remote) but this place had 10 of them (they specialize in Motocraft parts :thumbup). He pulled the part and then I told him what it was for and if, just for kicks, he would check his computer to see what it listed. Sure enough, his computer listed the gray one. He sure was confused as to why his computer showed the wrong part number and asked me a couple of times if I was sure that I indeed had the black one. I assured him that I did and that I had done a lot of reading and research on the subject. I talked to him for about 30 min explaining the difference between the gray push start and the black CCD along with theory's as to why the parts catalogs list the incorrect part no's. I was hoping that by telling this guy, that I may end up saving someone else that comes in there a mistake of getting the wrong one.

I took it home, replaced the old one with the new and took her for a test drive. She seemed to drive fine and maybe even seemed a bit more peppy (I think that's just me being optimistic though). While I was out, I went by one of the chain stores to get the old TFI tested. I had them run it through 3 or 4 times and it passed each time. I'll keep the old one as a spare, still worth it though, piece of mind is priceless.

sydude
02-02-2011, 02:40 PM
I just read this thread for the first time, and boy am I now scratching my chin... I've been spending an insane amount of time over the past year trying to figure out what could possibly cause my CEL light to go on, and I now realize that I just may have the wrong TFI module..

I've got a '92 that I put a 302 ford racing HO crate motor in, converted to mass air using the complete ford racing Lightning/L58 conversion kit and harness with an AKC0 ECM. I also have a Grey TFI module with heat sink, mounted on the fender.

But from what I have now learned reading this thread, I believe the AKC0 ECM is at a minimum a 1994 computer (I think the code for it is F8TF) which according to you guys requires a CCD TFI.

So am I definitely using the wrong TFI module?

If yes, do I need to do the "rewire start signal/resistor bypass" mod before I can upgrade to the black module? Or can I just swap the black module in? Not sure on this one, as my PCM and injector harness have changed, but the main engine harness (which I believe the TFI module connects to) didn't.

Thanks-

S

Seattle FSB
02-02-2011, 03:04 PM
I'm sure your harness and PCM is probably wired for a Remote Mount CCD ICM. If a Gray ICM is installed on a CCD vehicle, the vehicle will run and a CEL will usually result.

As previously discussed, the best way to determine which ICM your vehicle is wired for is to check the wiring of the vehicle. If pin #3 of the module gets a start signal (which should be battery voltage) from the starter circuit, it's a gray "Push Start" system. On the other hand, if pin #3 of the module is wired directly to pin #4 of the PCM, then it's a CCD system. This should be the same for either the distributor mount or remote mount ICM.

If pin #3 of the module is wired directly to pin #4 of the PCM, simply change to a Black CCD TFI ICM and your CEL should go away (unless you have other problems as well). I recommend a Motorcraft DY1077.

The AKCO (F8TF-12A650-NA) is from a 93-95 Ford Lightning, which is a MAF/E4OD/Single HEGO PCM.

sydude
02-02-2011, 03:55 PM
I'm sure your harness and PCM is probably wired for a Remote Mount CCD ICM. If a Gray ICM is installed on a CCD vehicle, the vehicle will run and a CEL will usually result.

As previously discussed, the best way to determine which ICM your vehicle is wired for is to check the wiring of the vehicle. If pin #4 of the module gets a start signal (which should be battery voltage) from the starter circuit, it's a gray "Push Start" system. On the other hand, if pin #4 of the module is wired directly to pin #4 of the PCM, then it's a CCD system. This should be the same for either the distributor mount or remote mount ICM.

If pin #4 of the module is wired directly to pin #4 of the PCM, simply change to a Black CCD TFI ICM and your CEL should go away (unless you have other problems as well). I recommend a Motorcraft DY1077.

The AKCO (F8TF-12A650-NA) is from a 93-95 Ford Lightning, which is a MAF/E4OD/Single HEGO PCM.

Awesome, thank you very much!

sydude
02-25-2011, 05:09 PM
I was just doing some further reading on the subject, and I came across this article which goes deeper into the Grey/Black TFI module issues:

http://www.capitolautomotive.com/pdf/cccnewsletter.pdf

Here's the actual text copy and pasted:

DOMESTICALLY SPEAKING

Thick Film Ignition (TFI) System Modules: Gray or Black? Most technicians who deal with Ford driveability and no start problems have become very familiar with the Thick Film Ignition (TFI) system. Ford started using the 6-pin TFI module with the EEC-4 computer system in 1983, and for years it remained basically unchanged.

Fords early TFI system, the Push Start TFI system, uses a gray TFI module. Originally, the TFI module was always mounted on the distributor. In the late 80s, Ford began to relocate the TFI module away from the distributor on some vehicles to provide better protection from the effects of engine heat, but system operation remained the same. The system uses a Hall effect pickup (stator) in the distributor, which generates a battery voltage, 50% duty cycle square wave, called the PIP signal, to the EEC-4 computer and the TFI module. The EEC-4 computer processes this signal and sends out another battery voltage, 50% duty cycle square wave, called the SPOUT signal, to the TFI module. As long as the TFI module is receiving a SPOUT signal, it will fire the coil at the rising edge of that signal (except during engine cranking, when SPOUT is ignored) and the vehicle will run with the amount of timing advance commanded by the computer. If the TFI module does not receive the SPOUT signal, it will fire the coil at the rising edge of the PIP signal, and the vehicle will run at base timing. This is true on all TFI systems.

Ignition dwell with the Push Start (gray module) system is controlled by the TFI module alone, and increases with engine RPM. The Ignition Diagnostic Monitor (IDM) signal on a Push Start TFI system comes from the coil negative circuit and is filtered through a 22k ohm resistor to pin 4 on the EEC-4 computer. The computer monitors this circuit to verify a coil firing for each PIP signal, and sets codes if it sees missing or erratic signals. Another feature unique to the Push Start TFI system is the start input on pin 4 of the module connector, which is wired into the starter relay trigger circuit, and signals the TFO module that the engine is cranking.
When the module sees battery voltage on this circuit, the SPOUT signal is ignored.

In the early 90s, Ford began using the Computer Controlled Dwell (CCD) TFI system on some vehicles. This TFI module is always black. With the CCD system, the computer controls primary dwell. The CCD TFI module still ungrounds (fires) the coil at the rising edge of the SPOUT signal, but now the falling edge of the SPOUT signal (which had no meaning to the Push Start TFI module) is used by the CCD TFI module to ground the coil. The PIP signal remains the same 50% duty cycle square wave, but SPOUT signal duty cycle varies according to how much dwell is desired by the computer.

Another major difference between the two systems is the IDM circuit. Pin 4 on the CCD TFI module, which was the start circuit input on the Push Start TFI module, is now the IDM signal, output directly from the TFI module to pin 4 on the EEC-4 computer. This signal is still a filtered (low voltage) version of the ignition primary waveform, but is filtered internally in the TFI module rather than through an external resistor. There isnt any start circuit input to the CCD TFI module; the module infers engine cranking from a low rpm input from the PIP signal.

Since these two TFI systems are so significantly different, yet so similar in appearance, parts application problems will inevitably occur. A gray Push Start TFI module will plug right in on a CCD system and vice versa. To make matters worse, parts books are often incorrect on TFI module applications! With the incorrect TFI module installed, the vehicle will run, but driveability and MIL (malfunction indicator lamp) problems will result. For instance, if a gray Push Start TFI module is installed in a CCD system, the computer will not be able to control ignition dwell, and the MIL will illuminate with memory codes for the IDM circuit set, as the gray TFI module is incapable of generating an IDM signal to the computer. If a black CCD TFI module is installed in a Push Start system, dwell will remain fixed, since the SPOUT signal duty cycle never changes. If in doubt about which TFI module belongs on a particular vehicle, consult the ignition system wiring diagram for the vehicle. If the wire going to pin 4 on the EEC-4 computer comes directly from pin 4 of the TFI module, it is a CCD system if not, it is a Push Start system.

As with every rule, there is an exceptionsome 1.9L Central Fuel (throttle body) Injected Escorts and Tracers were built with black TFI modules that are not CCD modules. If you encounter one of these, check the engineering number on the module. A CCD TFI module engineering number always starts with E9 or higher.

Courtesy Automotive Information Systems, Inc

Canadianice
02-26-2011, 04:51 PM
I have read through this whole thread and it is amazing. I was just wondering if there is any benefit for me to switch my 1992 bronco 351w to the black ccd remote mount TFI V.S. my grey remote mounted tfi? I have a drive ability issue with my truck at the moment. After my truck warms up ,and is in closed loop I believe, the idle in park or neutral is erratic at times.
My Rpm fluctuate between 675 and 800. I have tried everything. Got a rebuilt throttle body. I have vacuum tested all hoses, newer wiring harness from another 1992 351, Its like the computer cant make its mind up in these conditions. I would switch to the ccd ICM if its of benifit vs the grey ICM. The mods I have on my truck i have posted in my Sig. The Videos i have seen on you tube seem to show the trucks tachometer staying steady in park vs. my trucks erratic tachometer. truck has great power but sometimes pings at full throttle. I have the base timing around 11 btdc for a bit more pep around town.

Seattle FSB
02-26-2011, 05:30 PM
If you have the OEM PCM, you probably require the Gray "Push Start" TFI ICM. I cannot say that a ICM Upgrade from Gray to Black would benefit you due to the existing PCM program strategy and wiring of your existing OEM PCM. A positive attribute is that you already have a remote mount, unlike my original Distributor Mount ICM.

I would first check for Trouble Codes and see what your PCM is telling you. Then I would look closely at the existing TFI ICM. In my experience, they can be intermittent with no code... especially when warm and under load.

Then I would look closely at the IAC reliability and O2 Sensor location (due to your custom exhaust). Is your single O2 Sensor still in the stock location?

But running EEC-IV trouble codes would be a great first step.

Canadianice
02-26-2011, 07:53 PM
The only code I get during KOER test is one telling me my air dump system is inoperative during the test. This is due to having all the air system removed and leaving the actuators in place. I do have memory codes but they all have to do with my transmissions torque converter slipping. I have almost 400,000 KMS on the original E4OD. I moved the O2 sensor father down stream than stock. It is about 12 inches farther down stream. My primaries runs parallel about 12 inches longer than stock then y into a 3 inch pipe. the O2 sensor is placed right where the primaries come together. I will link a photo for you. I extended the harness for the O2.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/6GCBy_r7Ai-7u55XY-Lh3g?feat=directlink

Seattle FSB
02-27-2011, 01:21 AM
I would still look closely at your TFI ICM. Again, they have been known to become intermittent especially when warm and under load.

Aside from your ICM, your O2 Sensor should be located as close to the original location as possible to maintain accurate signal values of signal "Transport Delay", which is critical to the PCM programming. This parameter comes from a post by SigEpBlue, who is very respected on this site.


Man you guys really love to overkill things. :rofl:

asdaven: your oxygen sensor should be located as close to the original place as possible, and by that, I mean with regard to the distance between the manifold and the sensor. This is one thing no one seems to pay attention to here (not directing this at anyone, it's just overlooked by virtually everyone), so I'm very happy to see you're at least having some concern about it. :thumbup

The delay between an exhaust pulse, and when the oxygen sensor signal is considered representative of the oxygen content in the exhaust stream, is called Transport Delay. It is a critical table in the PCM's programming, and Ford's own internal documentation says so, in addition to my own tuning experience.

System transport lag time; time delay from when a fuel change is made until
the HEGO sensor indicates this change; varies with engine speed, units are
REVs.

***********************
***** WARNING *****
***************

It is imperative that an accurate value for the system transport lag be
entered. An incorrect value will result in greatly reduced catalyst
efficiencies due to excessively fast or slow ramp rates, incorrect jumpback
amounts, etc.

***************
***** WARNING *****
***********************

After an HEGO switch, a finite amount of time (equal to the transport lag)
should pass before the HEGO can switch. Noise in the HEGO system could be
interpreted by the computer as HEGO switches. These phantom switches could
occur at a faster rate than dictated by the system transport lag time. Since
the jumpback is made from the lambda when the HEGO switches, phantom switches
could make the jumpback go beyond the average Air/Fuel ratio. A high rate of
phantom switches would create a high rate of jumps. A special feature of the
closed loop strategy prevents this problem.

A full jumpback is done only if the proper transport lag time has elapsed.
If not, the jumpback distance is reduced to match the reduction in transport
lag time. The actual strategy uses PIP signal counts to control this
feature.

These are the reasons I always advocate sticking with factory exhaust tube sizes, at least until you're past the oxygen sensor(s). This way, your table's values won't be as nearly as inaccurate as they would be with larger tubes and/or an incorrectly-located sensor.

I'm using 2.25-inch tubes (actually it's that size from the collectors to the tips of the tailpipes, but I digress), and located both HO2S six inches below the collector flange, which is the factory sensor bung distance -- I'll admit it's an educated guess since I never had the factory Y-pipe from a BIO0-equipped Bronco, but I've performed meticulous measurements upon detailed photographs of the proper Y-pipe. I also have the ability to change the transport delay table in the PCM's program since I have a Quarter Horse, so it's just a matter of tuning it if I've gotten it wrong. Being the lazy-ass that I am though, I'd rather get it right the first time.

For everyone else, it's best you avoid this type of problem by not using large tubes and not altering the sensor location; go with 2.0- or 2.25-inch head pipes, locate the oxygen sensor properly by measuring the approximate distance to the old one, and you should be fine. The Bassani is HUGE compared to the factory Y-pipe, but you guys with single oxygen sensors would probably not notice as large a difference in driveability using one, as I would. That said, I still think the Bassani pipe is way overrated and overpriced. I just finished building my own FULL dual exhaust complete with flex joints and an H-pipe, and really, it's not terribly hard to do. Those of you with the factory collector exit locations won't have nearly the amount of fun that I did with my GT40P-compatible Ford Racing headers.



Here is where my current single O2 Sensor is located on my Bassani Y-pipe, which is on the cross-pipe somewhat close to the passenger side collector. This is using a 5.0L F150 EEC-IV E4OD WAY1 PCM for a MAF Upgrade. (Pic from 90Beater).

http://bronco.tophersworld.com/images/bassani_001.jpg


The Mustang A9L/A9P 5.0L EEC-IV PCM Stereo O2 Sensors should be mounted as close to both collectors as possible, yet at an angle appropriate for access. (Pic from Seattle FSB).

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/782920/fullsize/o2-sensor.jpg


As your O2 Sensor is considerably further downstream than stock, maybe SigEpBlue or others can address what impact this may have on your fluctuating RPM's when warm and in closed loop. And I wonder what effect that your smog system removal has on your symptoms, as well...

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/853763/fullsize/custom-ypipe.jpg

Canadianice
02-27-2011, 05:14 PM
Thanks for the reply. I did some research on "Transport Delay" and I hope someone with more information on the tables the PCM looks to for transport delay will chime in. I thought from what I was reading is that it is time based. As in the PCM changes the mixture and times till the O2 sensor sees the the change and then stores that for a reference. To me it seems that if its pulling from a table the table has limits programed into it. So if I am outside those limits it will cause problems. Before I spend the time and money relocating the O2, again, I would like to see these tables to ensure I'm not wasting any more money on my labor of love. Thank you for your help Seattle FSB. Ever do any wheeling here in the Vancouver area?

Seattle FSB
02-27-2011, 09:17 PM
I appreciate your research and interpretation of "Transport Delay" in reference to fixed Speed Density programming tables.

The Speed Density PCM definitely has limited parameters, and you are wise to gather more information before moving forward. Although your O2 Sensor location is a critical piece, I still would not rule out a faulty ICM.

I will be in Vancouver BC for the International Auto Show at the end of March. Maybe I can get you a ticket to the show and we can scope out the 6.2L Ford Raptor.


http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/853891/fullsize/ford-raptor-3.jpg


Here is the Raptor secretly camouflaged during testing, prior to the Ford release... :toothless

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/853892/fullsize/ford-raptor-4.jpg

sydude
06-14-2011, 10:55 AM
Here's an update on my just completed conversion from a Gray Push-Start harness and TFI module to a Black CCD harness and TFI module. Again, so you don't have to go back to earliest posts in this thread, I needed to do this as I have a '92 with a '95+ EEC computer, and '92's use the gray push-start setup and the '95's use the black CCD setup.

The results of the conversion was disappointing yet still productive at the same time. It basically improved the performance of the motor (smoother, a bit stronger), but it didn't solve the much hoped-for problems of my otherwise unexplained CEL light as well as my erratic off-throttle idle. Well, back to the drawing board to look for a solution elsewhere.

Seattle FSB
06-14-2011, 01:56 PM
What trouble codes are you getting KOEO and KOER? Confirm that you have addressed your IAC?


My recent retrofit of the entire vacuum system made a dramatic imporvement to my idle and performance...
See Booba5185's thread here: Replace Plastic Vacuum Hoses with Rubber (http://fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=192382)

sydude
06-14-2011, 02:11 PM
What trouble codes are you getting KOEO and KOER? Confirm that you have addressed your IAC?


My recent retrofit of the entire vacuum system made a dramatic imporvement to my idle and performance...
See Booba5185's thread here: Replace Plastic Vacuum Hoses with Rubber (http://fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=192382)

Thanks, I agree that replacing all of the vacuum lines is something that needs to be done.

Here's the a link to a thread that I just posted that is likely (I hope) the only remaining cause of my MIL and CM error code (332 - "Egr valve opening not detected"):

http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195193

Prior to today, I couldn't come up with a hard reason for my CEL, as the small amount of research on error code 332 and how it relates to the installation of the EGR/EVP Eliminator kit I installed led me to believe that the CM error code of 332 would NOT cause an MIL. So I hoped that the phantom MIL was caused by my use of the wrong TFI system for my new EEC. The other tests all report code 111.

But this morning I spent a few hours really searching on the subject, and it seems that a DTC of 332 in continuous memory will absolutely cause a MIL. So I'm now on the hunt for the solution there.

Thank you again for your help.

S

Seattle FSB
06-14-2011, 02:27 PM
This may be a stupid question but please confirm that you have not always carried the Continuous Memory Code 332? Have you tried simply deleting the code, especially if it is not active as you otherwise get a Code 111 (Pass)?

With an EGR Delete, aren't you supposed to install a resistor to eliminate any phantom codes?

Your 1995 EEC will use a Black CCD TFI ICM. If the wiring has not been changed correctly, or a Gray Push Start is used, you should get a DTC 212. I do not think that is the problem...


*** Nevermind. I now see your other post...

sydude
06-14-2011, 02:57 PM
I confirm that the 332 code has been cleared multiple times using both a snap on scan tool as well as the battery disconnect method, yet returns after each drive. So it's not an old residual code, I think!

Yes, I did use the resistors on all of the EGR components, but the research I completed today says that the eliminators may not work all the time, and when they don't they will throw a 332 and light up the MIL.

I just finished the changeover from Gray push start harness and module to the black system. All is well there, no codes.

miesk5
07-12-2011, 09:08 AM
yo,
Lately,
While looking @ many TFI wiring diagrams and articles, I see that many authors, such as David S must be ref. to models/years other than what our TFI Broncos use.

Specifically, I've been torn on the statement I posted from David S on page 1 of this A#1 Seattle post;
re:
"...Another major difference between the two systems is the IDM circuit.
Pin #4 on the CCD TFI module, which was the start circuit input on the Push Start TFI module, is now the IDM signal, sent directly from the TFL module to pin #4 on the EEC-IV computer..."

I believe he meant that;
Pin #3 on the CCD TFI module, which was the start circuit input on the Push Start TFI module, is now the IDM signal, sent directly from the TFL module to pin #4 on the EEC-IV computer

&
"...If the wire going to pin #4 on the EEC-IV computer comes directly from pin #4 of the TFI module, it is a CCD system. If not, it is a Push Start system..."

I believe David meant for our Broncos is that;
If the wire going to pin #4 on the EEC-IV computer comes directly from pin #3 (IDM) of the TFI module, it is a CCD system

I base this on these diagrams

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/833750/thumbnail/distributor9296.jpg (http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/833750_1)
92 Push
93 Push
93-1/2 CD
94 CCD
95 CCD
96 CCD

It includes testing & "The internal circuitry of the ICM will have one of two possible arrangements: push-start (gray), or computer controlled dwell (CCD) (black). NOTE THAT MOST AFTERMARKET MODULES ARE GRAY, regardless of type or year. If the ICM connector has a LB/R wire between the R/LG & Pk, it's push-start;
if the wire is Y/Bk, it's CCD."


........

and the 95 Diagram, by our friend Seattle
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/851803/thumbnail/bronco-1995-ignition-system--pg-211.gif (http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/851803)
Again, shows pin #4 on the EEC-IV computer comes directly from pin #3 (IDM) of the TFI module

and the 95 Diagram by Ford via Fireguy
http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/bronco_1995_21-1.gif
Again, shows pin #4 on the EEC-IV computer comes directly from pin #3 (IDM) of the TFI module

==

Any comments?
btw, I need to modify my site, re David S's info.

Seattle FSB
07-12-2011, 02:34 PM
miesk5, you are correct.


BTW which one of Ryan's diagrams are right if you notice in the pic of the modules I posted it shows the start in and IDM on pin 4 but the ones you posted it shows them on pin 3?

This was answered on Page 3 of this thread.




Again, as I stated earlier, one of the schematics shows the TFI connector inverted. Note whether the location of the Connector "notch" is on top or bottom.


Note the location of the TFI Connector Orientation "Notch" and that the top pin goes to PIP.
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/897612/fullsize/gray-tfi-icm-pinout.jpg


The below Pin locations are also acurate as the "Notch" and PIP are on top.
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/897611/fullsize/black-tfi-icm-pinout.jpg



Additionally, note that all Ford EVTM's clearly designate TFI ICM PIP as Pin #1, starting from the Orientation Notch.


1995 Ford Bronco CCD EVTM (Note Orientation Notch to the left)
https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/866535/fullsize/1995-tfi-connector.jpg

1990 Ford Bronco Push Start EVTM (Note Orientation Notch to the bottom)
https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/877701/fullsize/1990-tfi-connector2.jpg





Pin #1 should always be PIP, and always closest to the Orientation Notch on both the ICM and connector.



Little things like this can cost a guy an hour or two... :doh0715:

aquaholic33
08-29-2011, 04:21 PM
Just looking to make sure I am clear on this. I have a 95 fsb 5.0 I think I have the push start system.
I can't find this 22k resistor but I am getting 12volt from #4 connector. If I have ccd would I get 12volts from #4 on connector? I don't think so.
So my question is If I had no idea which ICM I should have because the truck runs with both installed. How do I test my wire harness to be 100% certain I am using the correct ICM.

Fireguy50
08-29-2011, 04:53 PM
I would check for trouble codes, it should give codes if you have the wrong TFI or resistor

GRY TFI = ECM pin4 goes to 22K resistor then to the Ignition Coil neg
BLK TFI = ECM pin4 dedicated circuit to the TFI

aquaholic33
08-29-2011, 05:05 PM
I'm getting 213 with both. Had them both tested and passed. Runs about the same with either ICM

Seattle FSB
08-29-2011, 05:10 PM
I would check for trouble codes, it should give codes if you have the wrong TFI or resistor

GRY TFI = ECM pin4 goes to 22K resistor then to the Ignition Coil neg
BLK TFI = ECM pin4 dedicated circuit to the TFI

You should get a DTC, but for some reason I never did.


If pin #3 of the module, (the Y/BK wire, third from the orientation knotch), gets a start signal (which should be battery voltage) from the starter circuit, it's a Gray Module "Push Start" system. On the other hand, if pin #3 of the module is wired directly to pin #4 of the ECM, then it's a Black Module CCD system.


Regarding the DTC 213 (SpOut Circuit Open), check and see if your SpOut Connector is missing.

aquaholic33
08-29-2011, 05:17 PM
Ok, so if i have 12volt from #3 i have a push gray . If i have a direct line #4 icm to #4 i have a black ccd. And to clear things up # 1 pin is located where the notch is on the connector.

Seattle FSB
08-29-2011, 05:19 PM
Ok, so if i have 12volt to #3 i have a push gray . If i have a direct line #4 icm to #3 TFI Module i have a black ccd. And to clear things up # 1 pin is located where the notch is on the connector.

Corrected above. Re-read my post. If the incorrect module is used, you may get a DTC 212 (Loss of IDM Input).

aquaholic33
08-29-2011, 05:24 PM
I got it thank you. My spout is there I am going to check the wiring now. Then, if I do have a push start I will locate the resistor to make sure it didn't blow out to stop the spout signal. After that I will run a wire to spout connector to bypass connector to see if that is bad.

Seattle FSB
08-29-2011, 06:17 PM
I got it thank you. My spout is there I am going to check the wiring now. Then, if I do have a push start I will locate the resistor to make sure it didn't blow out to stop the spout signal. After that I will run a wire to spout connector to bypass connector to see if that is bad.

See this link: '94 code 212 mystery IDM Resistor ??? (http://fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127508&highlight=TFI)


Photo courtesy of SigEpBlue
https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/884525/fullsize/dscn2269.jpg


Photo courtesy of SigEpBlue
https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/884526/fullsize/dscn2271.jpg

aquaholic33
08-29-2011, 07:30 PM
OK I am sure I have the black ICM. I traced the yellow/black from icm to computer #3 from icm to 4 on computer. It's one wire no resistors. I ran on ohm meter to confirm no breaks in the wire and all was good. I then ran a ohm test from the spout to connector and all was good and other side of spout to connector and no breaks in wires. That leads me to my puzzle. No engine light on but if I run a key on running I am still getting the 213. and a 585 ( what can causes a 585 code)

Seattle FSB
08-29-2011, 08:40 PM
That leads me to my puzzle. No engine light on but if I run a key on running I am still getting the 213. and a 585 ( what can causes a 585 code)

Try disconnecting your battery for 10 minutes. If the code returns, trace the wires completely between TFI ICM Pin #2 to PCM Pin #36. Otherwise, try a new Black TFI ICM, preferably a Motorcraft DY1077.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/851803/fullsize/bronco-1995-ignition-system--pg-211.gif

http://fordfuelinjection.com/files/remote_TFI_harness2.gif



***DTC 585 - Power to A/C Clutch Over Current.

sydude
08-31-2011, 12:09 AM
I was just going to say the same thing as Seattle... I've noticed that there are a few 'Black' ICM's out there that are actually 'Push Start' units and not CCD's - therefore they really should be 'Gray'. The only way to be sure is to get the Motorcraft DY1077 ICM.

aquaholic33
09-10-2011, 06:29 PM
i need a 1077 but the icm in my hand is F1sf-12a297-c1a. is this just an older model?

mblayton
09-10-2011, 11:25 PM
Would the TFI create a hard start when cold? From everything I have read in this thread it seems that way.

Truck is hard to start when cold runs on high then stalls out, it will do this 3-4 times or if put in gear and drive it prior to it stalling all is good, sometimes it is hard to start warm as well. Could the tfi be the culprit?? Also I have no light coming on.

Seattle FSB
09-11-2011, 01:38 AM
i need a 1077 but the icm in my hand is F1sf-12a297-c1a. is this just an older model?

Like this?

https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/834267/fullsize/p1010007.jpg



That number is an Engineering Number printed on the ICM, and may vary. The correct Part Number is DY-1077.

https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/834266/fullsize/p1010004.jpg

Seattle FSB
09-11-2011, 01:40 AM
Would the TFI create a hard start when cold? From everything I have read in this thread it seems that way.

Truck is hard to start when cold runs on high then stalls out, it will do this 3-4 times or if put in gear and drive it prior to it stalling all is good, sometimes it is hard to start warm as well. Could the tfi be the culprit?? Also I have no light coming on.

Codes?

Fireguy50
11-03-2011, 09:02 PM
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0063/4532/products/remote_TFI_harness_large.jpg?100386 (http://www.rjminjectiontech.com/products/remote-tfi-harness)
Complete harness for swapping over to a Remote TFI. Pictured is the prototype, I expect these to be ready for delivery mid December. Projected price at this time is $100, but may change.


new TFI connector
new Distributor connector
new Ignition Coil connector
new SPOUT connector
4 wires to insert into EEC computer

IDM -> EEC 4
IGN GND -> EEC 16
SPOUT -> EEC 36
PIP -> EEC 56

3 wires to solder into old EFI harness

+12 Power
Start Signal (for gray TFI module)
Tachometer signal for dash

new Ground to body



You will need to provide your own:

Remote TFI module (Gray "Push Start", Motorcraft - DY1075)
Aluminum TFI heatsink
Distributor for remote TFI


WARNING because of the wide range of vehicles this fits, you MUST do you own research.
Instructions NOT included!
NOT intended for beginners.

Seattle FSB
11-04-2011, 01:38 PM
Very nice, indeed! You have made the upgrade simple. Could we expect a CCD version in the future?

Fireguy50
11-04-2011, 02:05 PM
Not planning CCD (Black TFI) unless there is a big demand, because when swapping to remote TFI most people will be keeping their older ECM.

Seattle FSB
11-04-2011, 02:33 PM
Not planning CCD (Black TFI) unless there is a big demand, because when swapping to remote TFI most people will be keeping their older ECM.

Yes, but with a MAF Upgrade your PCM will probably require a CCD Upgrade.

The Gray Push Start Remote TFI Upgrade should have a large demand as a Distributor Mount TFI is inviting problems, even a safety issue if your TFI fails when driving. And your harness makes it a relatively easy install.

Again, very nice!

Fireguy50
11-04-2011, 02:38 PM
99% of my customers use 89-93 Mustang computers, but if somebody wanted the Black CCD TFI we could make the changes to the harness for them.

Swat
11-28-2011, 09:38 AM
I got the gray remote push start TFI. I am converting to MAF with a 95 computer which needs the black one, I have compared wiring diagrams and it appears that all I have to do is remove the wire from pin 3 from the TFI, wire from pin 4 of the EEC connector and replace it with a wire that goes directly from TFI pin 3 to EEC pin 4?

BlackFord_390
11-28-2011, 12:39 PM
I've run across some ambiguous information on TFI module pin outs while researching my MAF conversion (1993 EB (302, E40D) to a 1994 MAF configuration) - are the TFI module pins numbered top to bottom, or bottom to top? For mine, the wire to remove from the TFI module connector is the Red/Light Blue one (1993 EVTM). Replace it with a new wire directly to ECU pin 4 (a Yellow/Black wire in the 1994 EVTM) for a CCD TFI module. Remove and discard/terminate the wire between pin 4 of the 1993 ECU and pin 42 of the C101M connector.

Seattle FSB
11-28-2011, 12:50 PM
I got the gray remote push start TFI. I am converting to MAF with a 95 computer which needs the black one, I have compared wiring diagrams and it appears that all I have to do is remove the wire from pin 3 from the TFI, wire from pin 4 of the EEC connector and replace it with a wire that goes directly from TFI pin 3 to EEC pin 4?

Yes, bypassing the 22k ohm resistor.



From this...
https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/897592/fullsize/tfi-module-schematic--gray-remote-mount.jpg

To this.
https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/897594/fullsize/tfi-module-schematic--black-remote-mount.jpg




Remember that PIP is always TFI PIn #1 nearest the Orientation Notch
https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/866535/fullsize/1995-tfi-connector.jpg

https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/840198/fullsize/tfi-module-comparison--new.jpg




Here is the Black CCD Remote Mount TFI Schematic
https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/897590/fullsize/1995-ignition-schematic.jpg

Seattle FSB
11-28-2011, 01:25 PM
I've run across some ambiguous information on TFI module pin outs while researching my MAF conversion (1993 EB (302, E40D) to a 1994 MAF configuration) - are the TFI module pins numbered top to bottom, or bottom to top?



Allow me to settle this once and for all. TFI ICM Pin #1 is always PIP, and is closest to the top Orientation Notch. :thumbup



https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/897611/fullsize/black-tfi-icm-pinout.jpg


https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/897612/fullsize/gray-tfi-icm-pinout.jpg






For mine, the wire to remove from the TFI module connector is the Red/Light Blue one (1993 EVTM). Replace it with a new wire directly to ECU pin 4 (a Yellow/Black wire in the 1994 EVTM) for a CCD TFI module. Remove and discard/terminate the wire between pin 4 of the 1993 ECU and pin 42 of the C101M connector.


1989-1993 Gray TFI ICM R/LB Wire - Pin #3 (12v Start)
https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/877701/fullsize/1990-tfi-connector2.jpg


1994-1996 Black TFI ICM Y/BK Wire - Pin #3 (IDM)
https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/866535/fullsize/1995-tfi-connector.jpg

Swat
11-29-2011, 08:10 AM
So ya, after looking at the wiring diagrams I was pretty sure, but I came across and article that once I figured it out was wrong, calling pin 4 on the TFI pin 3. :doh0715:

I was wanting some reassurance, thanks.

Now I need someone to hold my hand while I do a MAF Conversion to install a 351 with blower and tune it. Big task, but I think I got it all now.

ronin84
12-30-2011, 12:40 PM
I literally went through 5 ignition modules within 5 to 6 months before reading this thread to realize i was buying the wrong parts. I guess that's what I get for not doing my homework :twak

Seattle FSB
12-30-2011, 04:32 PM
If you have a damaged ICM, look closely at your PIP Sensor and Coil as a possible culprit. Otherwise your 1990 should use a Gray Push Start and your 1996 should use a black CCD.

JCCBURT
10-23-2012, 10:56 PM
can I ask a dumb question... will " http://msdignition.shptron.com/products/productdetail/part_number=6425/424.0.0.0.0.0.0 "replace my tfi or just work with it?

in other words could i replace this instead of my tfi if i have the rest of the MSD stuff? (I do)

Seattle FSB
10-24-2012, 01:00 AM
That is an MSD Multi-Spark Ignition Control Box. You still require the TFI ICM to tell it when to fire.

SomeDude451
08-29-2013, 03:14 PM
I hope a year old thread isn't to old to bring back up. But this goes over exactly the information I need at the moment.

I intend to change my truck from SD to MAF, using a HOG0 EEC, which I believe is out of a '95 year truck. I've gathered that I will have to convert from a push-start to CCD TFI module. Currently, I have a distributor mounted module. For the time being I intend to keep it that way. So to convert, I just need to change pin 3 on the TFI from the start signal, to the IDM signal from the EEC pin 4. Right?

The follow up question is: since the start signal of the push start TFI goes through a 22k resistor to pin 4 on the EEC, would it be possible to remove that resistor from the wire, and not make any other changes? I reviewed the thread (HERE (http://fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127508&highlight=TFI)) that sig contributed, but I'm still uncertain if removing the resistor will effect anything else, and if it would be a viable solution.

95F1504x4EB
09-18-2013, 11:21 PM
Has anyone else bought a Motorcraft ICM lately? Are they no longer stamped "Motorcraft" on the front side? I recently purchased a DY-1077 module for my truck (1995) and the only thing on it is three rows of numbers: 5U2J-12A297-DB (top (engineering number?)), 234142 (middle), C11HD (bottom).

Anyone else experienced this lately? Just curious. :shrug

cajunrebel
09-19-2013, 08:38 AM
Where did you get the ICM from? Was it labeled as a Motorcraft part?

jermil01
09-19-2013, 09:04 AM
Where did you get the ICM from? Was it labeled as a Motorcraft part?

X2..sounds like your got a knock off. The last one I bought was from Rock Auto and was labeled Motorcraft.

95F1504x4EB
09-20-2013, 12:06 AM
It came off Amazon and was labeled "Motorcraft", it came in a Motorcraft box, and was sold by "Motorcraft." Here is the link:

http://www.amazon.com/Motorcraft-DY1077-Ignition-Control-Module/dp/B000IYHCRW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1379649654&sr=8-1&keywords=motorcraft+dy1077

The "engineering number" stamped on the part matches the number on the top of the box if that matters. I may be returning this if it's not genuine! :banghead

cajunrebel
09-20-2013, 11:02 AM
Considering that the seller has 19,000+ different items for sale then I would think that they are legitimatley Motorcraft.