another e4od that wont shift into 3rd/4th after being sank [Archive] - FSB Forums

: another e4od that wont shift into 3rd/4th after being sank


RebelPride2009
02-18-2012, 11:52 PM
Okay so ive been reading for hours on this site and i havent found anything conclusive. I sank my 93 bronco(5.8 E4OD) up to the doors in water and it took about 2 hours to get it out,:banghead shortly after I got out tried to drive and noticed it was slipping and wouldnt engage 3rd or overdrive:whiteflag so i babied it the 2 miles back to my house and parked it. I dropped the tranny pan, blew out all the lines, 2 coolers, replaced my inline filter and internal filter and gasket and put it all back together. I warmed up the truck and dumped in around 3 gallons of fluid, it was maybe 1/2 quart low but completely warmed up. so i figured id go for a ride around the block. Truck engages reverse 1st and 2nd strong enough to spin the tires but has no desire to shift into 3rd or everdrive at all. I have no idea what to look for in these problems, i read it could be improper voltage coming from the alternator causing the ecm to send out improper current to the shift solenoids, I have no clue, I have 3000 into my truck and i dont wanna start tearing things apart without having something to check, engine runs fine, no check engine light, OD light does not flash or have any effect on the truck....im at a loss guys, any ideas:whiteflag

BroncoJoe19
02-19-2012, 12:03 AM
I recall our friend miesk5 posting about water intrusion issues with the MLPS. I did a search for you on his site.

http://www.broncolinks.com/index.php?index=1093

RebelPride2009
02-19-2012, 12:12 AM
I recall our friend miesk5 posting about water intrusion issues with the MLPS. I did a search for you on his site.

http://www.broncolinks.com/index.php?index=1093


Thanks fellow north jersian:thumbup not to sound like a total idiot but is this what i should be looking at?>>>> http://www.thedieselstop.com/faq/9497faq/tsb/tsb/files/950212.pdf

Cheese5.0
02-19-2012, 02:23 AM
here's how to replace the MLPS

http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=191742&highlight=mlps

BroncoJoe19
02-19-2012, 09:36 AM
Thanks fellow north jersian:thumbup not to sound like a total idiot but is this what i should be looking at?>>>> http://www.thedieselstop.com/faq/9497faq/tsb/tsb/files/950212.pdf

Yes :)

Were you playing near home when you sank her?
I'm thinking of getting rid of mine because I don't have anywhere near home to play with her.

RebelPride2009
02-19-2012, 11:36 AM
Yes :)

Were you playing near home when you sank her?
I'm thinking of getting rid of mine because I don't have anywhere near home to play with her.
yeah 2 miles down the road from me is burnt meadow road, connects westmilford and ringwood and is an un maintained road with trails for trucks all over it. Its alot of fun till you do what i did

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt132/RebelPride2009/419066_10150518089279087_661839086_8947333_1638169 302_n.jpg

took 2 trucks to get me out:banghead

so what you guys are saying if i replace that MLPS or neutral safety switch it should shift correctly? It makes sense because thats on the drivers side and the drivers side sank pretty bad, had some water in the cab:toothless

miesk5
02-19-2012, 12:08 PM
yo,
Clean the MLPS connector first.
Manual Lever Position Sensor (MLPS) Adjustment Info; "...back-probe the MLP line with a volt meter while in Park, and set it to between 4.277 and 4.736 volts (ideally at 4.5065V, right in the middle of the two limits). As a "double-check" afterward, pull the lever down to 1st gear, and again test the MLP voltage; it should be between 0.293 and 1.167 volts, ideally in the middle at 0.73V..."
Source: by SigEpBlue (Steve) at http://fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40055


I don't have a 93 wiring diagram so, see & compare;
Manual Lever Position/Transmission Range (MLPS/TR) Sensor Wiring Diagram in a 94 from EVTM
Source: by Mikey350 at http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/874093
Manual Lever Position/Transmission Range (MLPS/TR) Sensor Wiring Diagram in 92 Bronco & F Series
Source: by Chilton http://content.chiltonsonline.com/content/images/8828/images/88286w26.pdf

& Solenoid Body Connector

Seating; "...Completely seat solenoid body connector into solenoid body assembly receptacle by pushing on the top of the connector. [b]An audible click indicates full contact. Verify connection by pulling on harness..."
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/859616/thumbnail/e4od-solenoid-body-connector.jpg (http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/859616)


NO 2-3 Upshift TSB 98-16-7 in 90-94 Bronco, Econoline, F-150, F-250, F-350, F-53 (http://content.chiltonsonline.com/TSB/displayTSBHandler.ashx?assetID=38084&key=6kAUBD5BruOJf%2f3tgozUqjXM3RdbjcQqW4sVWiE%2fp2 IojfpfKqM07dr61%2bQAWHtTZr4ceHaQGlghzcS3JsrWPDzBYu QmH9GSCT3feWB4hVJjgOau1TPca%2fZuMqLLII0r6wwujtsltl TOFbvgl6dAcA%3d%3d)"...Some vehicles may exhibit a no 2-3 upshift condition. This may be the result of cross-leakage caused by distortion of the control valve body separating plate. Perform diagnosis and, if necessary, replace the control valve body separating plate. Refer to the following Service Pocedure for details. Perform diagnostics as outlined in the appropriate Service Manual. Refer to Figure 1 for the models affected. If condition still exists, remove the control valve body separating plate. Wipe excess oil. Examine the separating plate for deformation in the intermediate band servo area, Figure 2. THE SEPARATING PLATE GASKETS MUST BE REMOVED TO SEE THE DISTORTION. If distorted, replace the separating plate with a new Control Valve Body Separating Plate (F4TZ-7A008-A). Install new Separating Plate Gaskets (F4TZ-7C155-A and F4TZ-7D100-A) and a new Oil Pan Gasket (E9TZ-7A191-A)..." see site for figure

Source: by SeattleFSB (Seattle FSB) at SuperMotors.net

bronco6696
02-19-2012, 12:31 PM
Could be the MLPS clean it and see what happens... if not.. change it and see what happens

RebelPride2009
02-19-2012, 09:44 PM
well thanks guys, ill have to try cleaning it and possibly replacing the unit and seeing what happens, im running out of options and money at this point. But this week should be warm so i will have to clean it all up and give it a shot. will keep yall posted

stangmata
02-19-2012, 11:53 PM
Alternator.

RebelPride2009
02-20-2012, 12:21 AM
Alternator.

how would that be causing problems with it shifting? I read in your thread where you had the same issues with your trans the alternator came up a few times. mine puts out around 14v at idle.

stangmata
02-20-2012, 05:48 PM
how would that be causing problems with it shifting? I read in your thread where you had the same issues with your trans the alternator came up a few times. mine puts out around 14v at idle.

When the rectifier goes, it sends a mixed AC/DC signal to the computer that the PCM can't differentiate. This problem doesn't allow the trans to shift into 3rd and 4th. Why? Well, I can't explain it beyond that. I will tell you though that for the price of an alternator, it is worth trying.

miesk5
02-21-2012, 11:51 AM
yo,

PSOM & Odometer Not Working "..due to Bad diode in the alternator that put a rf signal into the speed sensor line. It turned out to be a bad diode in the alternator that put a rf signal into the speed sensor line. I unplugged the alternator electrical connector and it went away. I am a mechanic by trade and this was on a 2001 superduty that would die when it hit 1100rpm. I was doing my key on engine running selftest when the scanner could not complete it due to excessive vss. So i monitered my vss and when my target rpm was hit the pcm would have the speed limiter kick in and since there was no laod on the engine it would stall. Naturally I started unplugging stuff untill my interferance signal went away..."
Source: by Mr Bell & miesk5 at http://fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=158806

Diode Pattern Waveforms, Bad;

"...This wavefohttp://www.omitec.com/uploads/pics/_2344_20BADdiode.gifrm was captured using the diode pattern test located in the engine tests menu. This particular alternator has a bad rectifier, causing an AC voltage to ride on top of the DC voltage signal. This AC voltage affected the pip and spout signals (Ford primary ignition signals) causing a no code driveability problem. The fix was to replace the alternator.
.....


http://www.omitec.com/uploads/pics/_2345_20BADdiode1.gif
This waveform was captured using the diode pattern test located in the engine tests menu. This alternator, like the previous alternator, has a bad rectifier. This is another example of how a bad rectifier can affect the diode pattern. The fix was to replace the alternator. This waveform was captured using the lab scope. This is a good example of how an alternator with a bad diode can affect other signals that the ECM looks at. In this case it is an IAC motor. When viewing waveforms that have a lot of hash always look at the alternator diode pattern as a possible cause..."
Source: by omitec.com

Northernguy
02-21-2012, 12:20 PM
Reading this thread makes me appreciate my old manual trans and no computerized parts to worry about.:beer
Good Luck with yours RP! I do hope its an inexpensive fix.

Jasonhughes2009
02-21-2012, 01:48 PM
id check with wiring first, make sure your vss has a complete path all the way to the pcm.... i just dealt with the same problem and the vss terminal had recessed just barely enough to not make contact inside the connector to the pcm

miesk5
02-22-2012, 09:33 AM
id check with wiring first, make sure your vss has a complete path all the way to the pcm.... i just dealt with the same problem and the vss terminal had recessed just barely enough to not make contact inside the connector to the pcm

yo JASON,
Glad you mentioned that again, bec. Ford does mention Terminal Back-Out as a possible issue in many components' Pin-Point Tests

RebelPride2009
02-22-2012, 10:14 AM
Well looks like ill have myself plenty busy today, suppose to hit 50:thumbup and today im gonna pull the mlps and a few other things and run some tests. I miss my truck.. and since nobody has given me a good offer to buy it i dont wanna sell it for dirt, id much rather try and fix it. im hoping it is just the mlps or something small because i have nowhere to pull out this transmission and interrogate it.:cry

RebelPride2009
02-22-2012, 12:05 PM
does anyone know which wires on the MLPS i should be back probbing to check voltage? im sitting in my truck right now with my laptop and a multi meter. only voltage im getting from 2 wires is 10.46 volts. somebody help me and tell me which wires i should be back probing

miesk5
02-23-2012, 08:57 AM
does anyone know which wires on the MLPS i should be back probbing to check voltage? im sitting in my truck right now with my laptop and a multi meter. only voltage im getting from 2 wires is 10.46 volts. somebody help me and tell me which wires i should be back probing

yo Rebel,
Manual Lever Position Sensor (MLPS) Adjustment Info; "...back-probe the MLP line with a volt meter while in Park, and set it to between 4.277 and 4.736 volts (ideally at 4.5065V, right in the middle of the two limits). As a "double-check" afterward, pull the lever down to 1st gear, and again test the MLP voltage; it should be between 0.293 and 1.167 volts, ideally in the middle at 0.73V..."
Source: by SigEpBlue (Steve) at FSB

Use straight pins to backprobe, attach meter's clips to each pin - measure bet. Gy/R (Sensor Signal Return) & LB/Y (TR Sensor Signal)

RebelPride2009
02-23-2012, 06:14 PM
yo Rebel,
Manual Lever Position Sensor (MLPS) Adjustment Info; "...back-probe the MLP line with a volt meter while in Park, and set it to between 4.277 and 4.736 volts (ideally at 4.5065V, right in the middle of the two limits). As a "double-check" afterward, pull the lever down to 1st gear, and again test the MLP voltage; it should be between 0.293 and 1.167 volts, ideally in the middle at 0.73V..."
Source: by SigEpBlue (Steve) at FSB

Use straight pins to backprobe, attach meter's clips to each pin - measure bet. Gy/R (Sensor Signal Return) & LB/Y (TR Sensor Signal)


Okay ill try that, im gonna be picking up a new MLPS tmmw, got too busy in court today to get to the parts store.

Ranger429
02-23-2012, 07:13 PM
Thread edited, take it to PM's if it is still nencessary.

BroncoJoe19
02-23-2012, 08:54 PM
I am curious about how you made out today.

Although there has been a bit of discussion about the alternator, you don't have to replace it to check it, just disconnect it to take it out of the picture.

Again... I'm going with the MLP

RebelPride2009
02-24-2012, 04:36 PM
http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt132/RebelPride2009/IMG_20120224_153352.jpg

Got the new MLPS and connector, now i just gotta wait for a nice day to install it!!!

RebelPride2009
02-25-2012, 01:54 PM
well got it installed and still no difference at all....and i cannot find anyone who has a code reader for this pig. Im lost now...

stangmata
02-25-2012, 04:09 PM
Alternator.

BroncoJoe19
02-25-2012, 10:39 PM
How to scan FORD on board Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) in your driveway

HowTo Pull Codes 1983-1995 Broncos, Mustang, F series Trucks, Econolines, 302, 351 and more (http://broncozone.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=14269&view=findpost&p=74587)

BroncoJoe19
02-25-2012, 10:46 PM
Is there any posibility that the linkage is bent?

BroncoJoe19
02-25-2012, 11:11 PM
Is your CEL on?
As mentioned above, it could be a poor connection to the VSS which is mounted on top of your rear diff. The PCM uses that info for shifting points.
I don't know if water got into the rear diff, and if it did, I don't know if that could throw off the VSS.
I also don't know if there are any OBD 1 codes for VSS, certainly there are for OBD2

miesk5
02-26-2012, 09:21 AM
I also don't know if there are any OBD 1 codes for VSS, certainly there are for OBD2

yo Pal!
Yes there are Codes for the 93
DTC 452 A more difficult problem to identify is a VSS that works, but sends out the wrong signal for a given vehicle speed. In some cases, a wrong reading from the VSS may still cause a code to be set. For example, if the VSS signal tells the computer the vehicle is traveling 60 miles an hour, but the throttle position sensor and MAP sensor tell the computer that the engine is idling, the computer will be confused. And a confused computer should set any of the following codes: Ford 27, 29, 452.

a defective sensor may send out a wrong "too fast" signal, shutting down fuel flow at the wrong time. Although this doesnít happen often, it can be a difficult problem to identify. The customer will probably describe it as a random or intermittent sudden loss of power and poor performance, only to have the engine resume normal operation. Routine diagnostic checks of the engine in the shop wonít show any problem because there isnít a problem with the engine or the ECM.

RebelPride2009
02-26-2012, 11:14 AM
Alternator.

The alternator was pulled and tested, came out good all across the boards
There was water in the diff, the vss on top of the rear diff is actually in 2 pieces with wires between them right now.

RebelPride2009
02-26-2012, 11:46 AM
I also flushed 6 gallons of fresh fluid thru the trans to get it un contaminated and after running 6 gallons thru it and refilling it the darn trans fluid still looked milky. how much fluid do you gotta run thru one of these before they actually clean out?

TheUnforgiven
02-26-2012, 12:12 PM
I also flushed 6 gallons of fresh fluid thru the trans to get it un contaminated and after running 6 gallons thru it and refilling it the darn trans fluid still looked milky. how much fluid do you gotta run thru one of these before they actually clean out?

i doubt you will get the water out. last place i worked, a caravan had a trans cooler failure, mixed coolant and ATF in the trans. we flushed 10-12 gallons of ATF through it and the fluid still looked like pepto-bismol.

the trans failed 3 days later.

Good luck, save your pennies.

stangmata
02-26-2012, 04:32 PM
The alternator was pulled and tested, came out good all across the boards

Mine did too.


There was water in the diff, the vss on top of the rear diff is actually in 2 pieces with wires between them right now.

That seems like an easy decision then.

RebelPride2009
02-28-2012, 02:02 AM
Mine did too.



That seems like an easy decision then.

So you are thinking that it could be the sensor on top of the rear diff that is causing my trans to no shift out of 2nd gear? I also noticed after flushing the trans that it is still milky almost as i didnt do anything to it:banghead:whiteflag I will have to try and pull the codes out tmmw. I had to take a break because i was getting ready to drive this truck off of a cliff. Since nobody seems to wanna buy it im stuck with fixing it myself. so tomorrow i will pull out the codes and see what I can pull from the Puter and let yall know and see what we got.

BroncoJoe19
02-28-2012, 07:53 AM
When you said that the VSS is in two pieces with wires between them, I thought that you somehow took it apart to test it.

If it is broken, replace it. The PCM uses the VSS when setting shift points.

RebelPride2009
02-28-2012, 12:33 PM
When you said that the VSS is in two pieces with wires between them, I thought that you somehow took it apart to test it.

If it is broken, replace it. The PCM uses the VSS when setting shift points.

Okay,well after this is replaced and it still doesnt shift what does that leave me to check? Because i really dont wanna just keep dropping money into this truck anymore. Its becoming more of a headache that its worth. I love it but im losing patience for it:banghead

TheUnforgiven
02-28-2012, 01:43 PM
Okay,well after this is replaced and it still doesnt shift what does that leave me to check? Because i really dont wanna just keep dropping money into this truck anymore. Its becoming more of a headache that its worth. I love it but im losing patience for it:banghead

alternator

TS 90F150
02-28-2012, 06:00 PM
I guess I am going to go against the grain here and say you have internal damage to your transmission. With the amount of water it ingested, still showing signs of being "water logged" I would venture a guess that that is the largest problem.

tim

stangmata
02-28-2012, 10:25 PM
I guess I am going to go against the grain here and say you have internal damage to your transmission. With the amount of water it ingested, still showing signs of being "water logged" I would venture a guess that that is the largest problem.

tim

My trans has shifted into 3rd and 4th with the internals being THRASHED. The intermediate band grenaded, roasted all the o-rings, and the fluid smelled like cow shit and it still shifted. There may be internal damage, but I am in no way convinced that is the reason it isn't shifting.

BroncoJoe19
02-29-2012, 07:04 AM
Okay,well after this is replaced and it still doesnt shift what does that leave me to check? Because i really dont wanna just keep dropping money into this truck anymore. Its becoming more of a headache that its worth. I love it but im losing patience for it:banghead

The sensors that the PCM uses to determine shift points are:
VSS
TPS
MAP or as in your case MAF

I don't think that the E4OD has friction bands but is totally dependent upon the quality of the oil. Therefore after I had the electronics straightened out, I would return to flushing the trans. Your oil is still creamy correct?

How are you getting the oil out of the torque converter?

stangmata
02-29-2012, 08:23 AM
It doesn't have any bands other than the intermediate.

RebelPride2009
02-29-2012, 09:44 AM
The sensors that the PCM uses to determine shift points are:
VSS
TPS
MAP or as in your case MAF

I don't think that the E4OD has friction bands but is totally dependent upon the quality of the oil. Therefore after I had the electronics straightened out, I would return to flushing the trans. Your oil is still creamy correct?

How are you getting the oil out of the torque converter?

All I did when flushing the trans was take off the trans cooler lines on the radiator add a long rubber hose to a bucket, start the truck till the fluid would run out, add another gallon then do that again with all the fluid i had. No drain plug on the converter i already looked for one. the only sensor i havent replaced is the VSS and the MAF. I keep looking into the option of just swapping the whole system out for a 5 speed, but i cant get confirmed parts numbers etc.

stearnum
02-29-2012, 12:24 PM
no plug on the torque converter? I am giving a skeptical look right now.

TS 90F150
02-29-2012, 05:46 PM
My trans has shifted into 3rd and 4th with the internals being THRASHED. The intermediate band grenaded, roasted all the o-rings, and the fluid smelled like cow shit and it still shifted. There may be internal damage, but I am in no way convinced that is the reason it isn't shifting.

The two E4OD transmissions I have ruined (neither were in my present vehicle) were after getting stuck in water just under the door seals. Neither time would the transmission shift out of second gear. Both times the Ford Dealership rebuilt the transmission due to water damage. Both times the repairs were covered under warranty, so I didn't rock the boat on what was broken. But the service writer informed me both times it was due to "gunk" getting inside the transmission. I guessed the gunk was either water and transmission fluid or water, transmission fluid and the mud from the water.

But like everything else your experiences maybe different. But if the fluid still looks like milkshake I doubt it will last very long if he does get it to shift. just mho.

tim

BroncoJoe19
02-29-2012, 10:30 PM
All I did when flushing the trans was take off the trans cooler lines on the radiator add a long rubber hose to a bucket, start the truck till the fluid would run out, add another gallon then do that again with all the fluid i had. No drain plug on the converter i already looked for one. the only sensor i havent replaced is the VSS and the MAF. I keep looking into the option of just swapping the whole system out for a 5 speed, but i cant get confirmed parts numbers etc.

I know that not all transmissions have a drain plug on the converter, I don't know about the E4OD. The method that you used is the method that is recommended for the Windstar trans, and I believe that should flush the torque converter.

miesk5
03-01-2012, 08:51 AM
yo,
Here is the skinny by Ford;
Torque Converter Cleaning, Diagnosis Procedure & Replacement Guidelines TSB 96-26-12 for 85-96 (http://www.thedieselstop.com/faq/9497faq/tsb/tsb/files/962612.pdf)
EXCERPTS:"If the torque converter is not being replaced, the following actions must take place:

The torque converter must be thoroughly cleaned:
Torque converters with drain plugs can be cleaned using the Rotunda Torque Converter Cleaner. Follow the instructions included with the equipment.
Torque converters without drain plugs can be cleaned by hand. Partially fill the converter using clean transmission fluid (as recommended for the particular transmission). Hand agitate the converter and then thoroughly drain the fluid. Refill with new fluid, specified for the transmission, and reinstall.
All cooler lines must be thoroughly cleaned by Back and Forward Flushing using Service Manual procedure.
All coolers (in-tank and auxiliary) must be thoroughly cleaned by Back and Forward Flushing using Service Manual procedure.
All Cooler By-Pass Valves (CBV), if equipped, must be removed and thoroughly cleaned using Service Manual procedures. Replace rubber coated sealing washers prior to reinstalling CBV. Replace CBV if damaged or plugged.
Perform Transmission Cooler Flow Test - If the Transmission Cooling System fails the Flow Test, the coolers, CBVs or lines must be replaced. If the coolers are to be replaced, use only factory approved service parts..."

Read Entire TSB if you need the info
==

And as TS 90F150 mentioned, water can enter the E4OD through the Vent - esp if the tube is missing.

90Bronco79
03-21-2012, 11:44 PM
any up dates to your progress i find my self in the same boat atm i really dont want to replace the trans
while i was stuck the bat dummy light came on if them makes a diff not sure if your did

miesk5
03-22-2012, 10:15 AM
any up dates to your progress i find my self in the same boat atm i really dont want to replace the trans
while i was stuck the bat dummy light came on if them makes a diff not sure if your did

yo 90BRONCO
Have it scanned for Code(s) free at local parts store.
Run it around to heat the engine up and shift thru all gears incl Reverse. Then turn off all accessories/lights, etc.
Make sure A/C is off and transmission is in Park (automatic)
Do Key On Engine Off (KOEO) portion first.
Remember to have engine @ Normal Operating Temperature before doing the KEY ON ENGINE RUNNING (KOER) portion
Some stores say the KOER postion isn't needed, but...

Look Codes up in my broncolinks.com site using the new Search function if in a hurry.

And Post em here according to
KOEO
& KOER

90Bronco79
03-22-2012, 08:29 PM
k i will add that to the list of things to do tomorrow

bronco6696
03-22-2012, 11:30 PM
Did you fix the problem yet?

panicattack3636
07-16-2013, 05:20 PM
I am having the same issue here, except mine is new. Just rebuilt everything. Eliminated the ABS, so I do not need the rear vss, right. I have 1-2 and that's it. Any suggestions? My buddy and I are scratching our heads here and can't think of anything.

TS 90F150
07-16-2013, 07:07 PM
I am having the same issue here, except mine is new. Just rebuilt everything. Eliminated the ABS, so I do not need the rear vss, right. I have 1-2 and that's it. Any suggestions? My buddy and I are scratching our heads here and can't think of anything.

Need more infromation. If your vehicle is between 92-96, then yes, YOU NEED the rearend mounted sensor. If between 89-91 then, no, this sensor is only for the RABS.

tim