"Bronco" John Galt Quarterhorse Tune Thread [Archive] - FSB Forums

: "Bronco" John Galt Quarterhorse Tune Thread


"Bronco" John Galt
04-07-2012, 11:12 PM
Ok, so this is going to start off weak. Still spending most of my time getting my Bronco to be a reliable daily driver from a mechanical standpoint (see build thread for proof of masochism).

Have the Quarterhorse, and Innovate LC-1 Wideband, as well as a USB serial converter.

*EDIT* Just bought the Motorsports Digital MTX Series Air/Fuel Ratio Gauge All-In-One. LC-1 is going to the Mustang.

Needed:

1. Research. Lots of research.

2. Computer. Searching the Craig for a cheap netbook. Don't plan on any software on the netbook besides OS, EA/BE (EEC Analyzer/Binary Editor), and a browser. The netbook will reside in my rig, building a custom console and it will be safe in there. IF there is other software I will need, advice is appreciated. The goal is minimalism, though. Any suggestions on screen size for viewing software appreciated.

*EDIT* Need LogWorks data logging software from Innovate, as well.

*EDIT* After reading the computer specs on Clint Garrity's site, I'm not going to buy a netbook/laptop just for this. I have an Alienware MX11 that will work. No, I don't use it to play games, I use it for video editing/graphics. The money spent on a laptop powerful enough to run his software is better spent elsewhere. I can't believe what he calls out...Core Duo? 4 GIG of Ram? These must be some serious programs. My video editing software has specs like that. Thought these were just data crunchers...are these for real? Was thinking a $100 used netbook would work.

Clint's Specs:

http://www.eecanalyzer.net/shop/

System Requirements

* Dot Net Framework 3.5 Service Pack 1
* Minimum Screen size is 800x600
* Minimum RAM is 4 gig on Windows Vist and Win 7
* The CPU speed is going to depend on the logging rate. Minimum should be a Intel based Core Duo


3. EEC? I have five I'm willing to play with. The obvious choice I believe will be the A9P since I believe it is the one that has been picked clean through. Do not know enough about the subject yet to determine this, though. Looking forward to lots of fun here.

4. ? I don't know what I don't know. See point 1.


As I get farther along the process, I will make periodic updates to this thread.

Some pics to start, because we all like pics:

The EEC I am currently running. Not sure if it's original, but I believe it came with the MAF conversion. It also has an SCT chip on it. Not sure if that has done any good, or if it is optimally tuned. The truck runs pretty strong, but should run stronger for the parts that are in the motor. Can't wait to hook up the Quarterhorse and see if that makes a difference.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/joebeez/IMAG2420.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/joebeez/IMAG2423.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/joebeez/IMAG2425.jpg

Current MAF setup:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/joebeez/IMAG2400.jpg

Spare EECs:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/joebeez/IMAG2401.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/joebeez/IMAG2406.jpg

Quarterhorse:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/joebeez/IMAG2427.jpg

LC-1:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/joebeez/IMAG2411.jpg

Alvin in AZ
04-10-2012, 12:08 AM
Yeah the A9P (for slush boxes) or A9L (for gear boxes). :)
(I have one of each, they're cheap ;)

From what I've gathered, forget about the other EEC's unless you need one
for an E4OD. ??

I got married about 6 weeks ago so everything-Bronco is now on hold! LOL :)

Alvin in AZ

"Bronco" John Galt
04-10-2012, 02:27 AM
I'm still very new to this, so if these comments/questions sound dumb..well...

1. I'm thinking with multiple EECs, should a problem happen to one, I can either find a bin, or pay to have the EEC cracked to get a start bin, then be able to fine tune from there (in the event of EEC meltdown or something). It shouldn't matter if the computer was originally for E4OD, 5.8, 460, etc, right? Definitely want to start with the easiest option, though.

2. Same with the A9P/L..doesn't matter once you get into modifying the bins, right?

3. Congratulations on your marriage! My Bronco almost caused a divorce, may you be luckier! LOL

"Bronco" John Galt
04-10-2012, 02:42 AM
Did some scouting around at the SCT site...turns out the chip I have is an "SCT Eliminator Single / Multi-Program Switch Chip"

SCT Part Number: 6600

http://www.sctflash.com/products.php?PID=31&VID=#2

From what I gather (although the site is vague on this model), there should be another hardware component to this chip. It says it can hold up to five different tunes, with some sort of dial to switch between them. But to alter or create a tune, you have to go to their licensed dealers.

So who knows what tune is on here..and how good it is to begin with. Going to email SCT to see if I can glean any other info regarding this. Their online knowledge base/support center lists nothing about this chip.

More motivation to get the Quarterhorse going.

Question: Is the tune just on this chip, or has it altered teh original program at all? From what I remember reading, chips like this merely "reroute" the EEC program to run what's on the chip, not changing the original programming at all. I am tempted to remove teh chip and try running the truck with just the EEC. According to Fireguy's website list, the C3W1 was originally for '89-'93 5.0 Mustangs with MAF/auto

http://www.oldfuelinjection.com/?p=17

My truck is 5.0, and is very built. It has been cammed, and the firing order changed to the HO Mustang firing order (vs the firing order of an '87 5.0 Bronco). It's also an AOD. So...should be OK?

broncoflorida
04-10-2012, 03:55 AM
Question: Is the tune just on this chip, or has it altered teh original program at all? From what I remember reading, chips like this merely "reroute" the EEC program to run what's on the chip, not changing the original programming at all. I am tempted to remove teh chip and try running the truck with just the EEC. According to Fireguy's website list, the C3W1 was originally for '89-'93 5.0 Mustangs with MAF/auto


My truck is 5.0, and is very built. It has been cammed, and the firing order changed to the HO Mustang firing order (vs the firing order of an '87 5.0 Bronco). It's also an AOD. So...should be OK?

Yes if you remove the SCT, than you revert back to the factory programming.

On the other question, yes the QH can be used in this setup and gives you the option to program it to what and how you want to run the vehicle.

"Bronco" John Galt
04-10-2012, 11:42 AM
Yes if you remove the SCT, than you revert back to the factory programming.

On the other question, yes the QH can be used in this setup and gives you the option to program it to what and how you want to run the vehicle.

Thanks for the reply, FLA. I am going to remove the SCT and give it a shot with just the EEC. Will report the difference in this thread. Will be seat of the pants, as I have no way to calibrate/log any SCT things.

clements408
04-10-2012, 10:47 PM
If your committed to the learning curve for a Quarter horse, Binary Editor, and custom tune, I would recommend installing a wide band 02 sensor such as innovate. The visual gauge & data pulled into the BE software is very valuable for tuning. I keep one eye on mine at all times because it doesn't take long to grenade an engine if the air/fuel ratio is lean.

"Bronco" John Galt
04-11-2012, 02:32 AM
If your committed to the learning curve for a Quarter horse, Binary Editor, and custom tune, I would recommend installing a wide band 02 sensor such as innovate. The visual gauge & data pulled into the BE software is very valuable for tuning. I keep one eye on mine at all times because it doesn't take long to grenade an engine if the air/fuel ratio is lean.


So is this what you are referring to? Sounds like I don't need the LC-1 (shown in first post) now. This stays in permanently? I was thinking of getting an A/F gauge anyway for @ $100. Might as well kick another $100 and do the all in one...this sounds like a great idea. Thanks for the post. Any other comments on it?

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/images/MTXL_All_Web.jpg


>>>ALL-IN-ONE

(Wideband Controller integrated into the MTX-L gauge housing)

The new Innovate Motorsports Digital MTX Series Air/Fuel Ratio Gauge utilizes the only 100% digital Wideband air/fuel ratio technology on the market! The award-winning patented DirectDigital™ technology we use is faster and more accurate than common “UEGO” gauges and is now more affordable! In addition, the gauge features a water resistant casing, interchangeable faceplates and bezels, and 2 fully programmable linear analog outputs for use with aftermarket engine managements systems and dataloggers!

KEY FEATURES
• The only 100% digital wideband air/fuel ratio technology!
• Water Resistant 52mm (2 1/16”) round dash-mountable casing is perfect for automotive, powersports, marine, and demanding racing applications
• Built-in Direct Digital™ Wideband Controller reduces wiring and simplifies installation (No LC-1 required)
• Wideband O2 Sensor is compatible with all fuel types (Leaded, Unleaded, Diesel, Methanol, E85, etc)
• Ability to calibrate O2 sensor for increased accuracy
• (2) 0-5v fully programmable linear analog outputs for use with engine management systems “closed-loop” and external dataloggers
• Interchangeable faceplates and bezels: Black and silver bezel, black and white faceplates included
• Large digital readout and programmable “Digital Needle” provides the functionality of a needle style gauge with the pinpoint accuracy of a digital display
• Datalog using LogWorks on your PC
• Serial IN and OUT ports allows for easy

Now Shipping!

MTX-L: Complete All-In-One Air/Fuel Ratio Gauge Kit. Includes: Gauge, Silver Bezel, Black Bezel, White Faceplate, Black Faceplate, Bosch Wideband O2 Sensor (LSU4.2), 8 Ft. Sensor Cable (Overall length 10 ft.), Exhaust Bung, Program Cable (Only needed for Datalogging and to change the Fuel Type Setting), Software CD, and Quick Start Guide. P/N: 3844, MSRP $199


<<<

clements408
04-11-2012, 03:38 PM
That looks like their newest release. I went with the LC-1 and XD-16 gauge so if the new product does it all in one, great. The nice thing about this setup is it provides a narrow band input into your ECU so you can use the stock location for the O2 sensor instead of drilling another hole for this along with your stock sensor. Remember to follow the quarterly schedule of re-calibrating the sensor in free air or it will go nuts at some point and suggest you have a major vacuum leak. (Gauge starts to jump all over the spectrum between rich & lean) I would put this in ASAP and run with your stock computer to see if your set up leans out at some point in the power curve. You can also see how the computer reacts to various throttle conditions. In my case, with the stock computer, I could watch the Air/Fuel gauge lean out as I entered boost (slight detonation) and than the ECU would register the detonation through the knock sensor and dump fuel radically as a reaction which would immediately push my AFR to ~12. I realized then the tricks of running higher fuel pressure and using a FMU was not working for me and a custom tune was required.

"Bronco" John Galt
04-11-2012, 04:15 PM
That looks like their newest release. I went with the LC-1 and XD-16 gauge so if the new product does it all in one, great. The nice thing about this setup is it provides a narrow band input into your ECU so you can use the stock location for the O2 sensor instead of drilling another hole for this along with your stock sensor. Remember to follow the quarterly schedule of re-calibrating the sensor in free air or it will go nuts at some point and suggest you have a major vacuum leak. (Gauge starts to jump all over the spectrum between rich & lean) I would put this in ASAP and run with your stock computer to see if your set up leans out at some point in the power curve. You can also see how the computer reacts to various throttle conditions. In my case, with the stock computer, I could watch the Air/Fuel gauge lean out as I entered boost (slight detonation) and than the ECU would register the detonation through the knock sensor and dump fuel radically as a reaction which would immediately push my AFR to ~12. I realized then the tricks of running higher fuel pressure and using a FMU was not working for me and a custom tune was required.

I was thinking the same thing last night. Took your advice today, it should be here Friday. My truck is starting to run poorly again. Idle is varying, acceleration is down, shift points are bad, gas mileage getting worse. All this was fine up until very recently (as it was in previous cases). This has happened the last two times something critical failed (different issue each time). I was always looking for a mechanical cause, and could never find it. There are definite wiring issues with this truck that need to be addressed, but I'm also starting to think it could possibly be EEC related to a degree as well. I'm definitely going to find time today to take that SCT chip off and see how that goes.

I know the AOD isn't computer controlled, so that may be a different issue, but it will be interesting to see what kind of data I can glean from this. Will post up results in this thread.

jermil01
04-11-2012, 04:25 PM
Clearly you've done a lot of research, and I'm sure you've probably already heard this, but it bears repeating. The best thing you can do is make sure your rig is in good running condition before going down the tuning path.. too many people try to and sometimes successfully use the tuner to mask issues they're having with their engine and that's not a good thing..just my .02 cents.

Also, FWIW, I run my tuning software off of my $100 ASUS netbook. Haven't had any problems at all.

"Bronco" John Galt
04-11-2012, 04:48 PM
Clearly you've done a lot of research, and I'm sure you've probably already heard this, but it bears repeating. The best thing you can do is make sure your rig is in good running condition before going down the tuning path.. too many people try to and sometimes successfully use the tuner to mask issues they're having with their engine and that's not a good thing..just my .02 cents.

Also, FWIW, I run my tuning software off of my $100 ASUS netbook. Haven't had any problems at all.

Yep, I agree. I still have way too much to learn to actually start "tuning" yet. But I think the MTX will be one more diagnostic tool in the kit, as it won't change anything just yet, but will give me data to work with.

I am still in the process of working through all the mechanical/electrical as well. On another note, I did just rebuild it again from the cam up, and it passed smog with flying colors. It ran great for about 6 - 700 miles, and is now developing driveability issues again. I feel the more data I can glean, the better armed I can be to figure out just what the deal is with this truck.

Glad to hear about the netbook, Jermil. The specs he's calling out make absolutely no sense for the type of programs they are. Minimum 4 GIG is huge. Audio/Video files are massive, massive files, and that's the kind of territory he's entering with those specs. But I think I will abandon my idea of a dedicated netbook at this time. I just used some of that money to buy a datalogger/AFR gauge...:toothless.

"Bronco" John Galt
04-12-2012, 06:09 PM
Innovate delivers fast...

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/joebeez/IMAG2450.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/joebeez/IMAG2451.jpg

Can't wait to get this installed. Hoping tomorrow, if I can use existing bung, will be next week if I have to weld in supplied bung. Need to read the instructions...

I think I will now save the LC-1 for my Foxbody. Going to be awhile before that thing comes out of storage. The Bronco takes up too much money...

"Bronco" John Galt
04-17-2012, 08:53 PM
Small update. Still haven't installed the MTX-L yet. Shooting for Saturday. I did, however, remove the SCT ship and run just the C3W1. This computer was originally for '89-'93 5.0 Mustangs with MAF/auto.

My Bronco is MAF, AOD, 5.0 bored .030, Edlebrock 2.02 heads, headers, decent size cam with HO firing order (will look up specs later), forged pistons, forged rods, gasket matched intake, 19 lb injectors, 73mm MAF sensor, open element air filter...has 33" tires and 4.56 gears. Eaton posi in rear, Tru-trac up front. Estimated 9.8:1 compression. Run 93 octane. Both catalytic converters are there, and all smog equipment is hooked up and working.

So with the chip it runs "OK"...not what I think this motor is capable of, and it definitely isn't running "right"...but without the chip, it runs a lot worse. Idle is worse...pick up is much worse. With the chip, it spins the tires, without, it barely gets out of it's own way.

I think whatever "tune" the SCT is running is definitely an improvement over stock, but I feel there is lots more potential to be realized.

Looking forward to seeing what data the MTX yields...

*EDIT* So the other day was at O'Reilly, and picked up a can of MAF cleaner. Finally got around to using this evening after putting the SCT chip back on the EEC....what a difference. Idle is better, throttle response is better, starting is better. Too soon to tell about anything else, but will post up if anything shows up. My MAF sensor didn't look dirty, but it must have been.

This is the cleaner I used:

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/CRC0/05110/N0439.oap?ck=Search_maf+cleaner_-1_2889&keyword=maf+cleaner

http://images.oreillyauto.com/parts/img/medium/crc/05110.jpg

Diabolic
10-08-2012, 05:14 PM
So what specific questions do you still have? Perhaps I can help you out as I run a moates QH, BE2012, and Innovate wb's on all my vehicles. You will be able to log the innovate wb through BE without the need for logworks. I would reccomend logging in terms of Lambda instead of AFR because it doesn't matter what kind of fuel you get, 100% gas, E10, E15, E85, etc....Just shoot for 1.0 Lambda at idle and up to 60% load, then .85 Lambda for an NA vehicle above that. Super easy. That gauge you bought will display Lambda as well as AFR, so if you decide to go Lambda it will read correctly.