This section is going to be great.
All you right winged, christian, homo-phobic, redneck, NIMBY, assholes will have a place to come together and "Have yourselves a ****** hanging party :rebelflag "

Anybody but Bush

Have fun, I am sure I will tune in from time to time. :goodfinge :goodfinge

Oh and in case you forgot:

George W. Bush Resume

Past work experience:

-Ran for congress and lost.

-Bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas, company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.

-Bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using tax-payer money. Biggest move: Traded Sammy Sosa to the Chicago White Sox.

-With fathers help (and his name) was elected Governor of Texas.

-Accomplishments: Changed pollution laws for power and oil companies and made Texas the most polluted state in the Union. Replaced Los Angeles with Houston as the most smog ridden city in America. Cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas government to the tune of billions in borrowed money. Set record for most executions by any Governor in American history.

-Became president after losing the popular vote by over 500,000 votes, with the help of my fathers appointments to the Supreme Court.

Accomplishments as president:

-Attacked and took over two countries.

-Spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury.

-Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history.

-Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.

-Set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market.

-First president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

-First president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.

-First year in office set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history.

-After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in US history.

-Set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips than any other president in US history.

-In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their job.

-Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in US history.

-Set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12 month period.

-Appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.

-Set the record for the least amount of press conferences than any president since the advent of television.

-Signed more laws and executive orders circumventing the Constitution than any president in US history.

-Presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.

-Presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have.

-Cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.

-Set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind. (http://www.hyperreal.org/~dana/marches/)

-Dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.

-My presidency is the most secretive and un-accountable of any in US history.

-Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (the 'poorest' multi-millionaire, Condoleezza Rice has an Chevron oil tanker named after her).

-Had more states to simultaneously go bankrupt than any president in the history of the United States.

-Presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world.

-Created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States.

-Set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in US history.

-First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the human rights commission.

-First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the elections monitoring board.

-Removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.

-Rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.

-Withdrew from the World Court of Law.

-Refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.

-First president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 US elections).

-All-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.

-My biggest life-time campaign contributor presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).

-Spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.

-First president in US history to unilaterally attack a sovereign nation against the will of the United Nations and the world community.

-First president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)

-First US president to establish a secret shadow government.

-Took the biggest world sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).

-With a policy of 'dis-engagement' created the most hostile Israeli-Palestine relations in at least 30 years.

-Fist US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.

-First US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than their immediate neighbor, North Korea.

-Changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.

-Set all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling huge investments in corporations bidding for government contracts.

-Failed to fulfill my pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive'.

-Failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capitol building. After 18 months I have no leads and zero suspects.

-In the 18 months following the 911 attacks I have successfully prevented any public investigation into the biggest security failure in the history of the United States.

-Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history.

-In a little over two years created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided the US has ever been since the civil war.

-Entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.

-Records and References:

-At least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available).

-AWOL from National Guard and Deserted the military during a time of war.

-Refuse to take drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.

-All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.

-All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.

-All minutes of meetings for any public corporation I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.

-Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public review.

-For personal references please speak to my daddy or Uncle James Baker (They can be reached at their offices of the Carlyle Group for war-profiteering.)


Oh yeah... HE “totally” deserves another four years.

He's a PIECE OF SHIT that has no place in representing our country.

Well beerguy, at least we know where you stand. Maybe you should try vodka.

:stupid AMEN to that marv

Yup, thats why I say things. Mostly cuz I love you guys and gals and its all in good fun. Nothing better than breaking each others balls over politics.
:toothless

I've seen that crock before, beerman. Besides the fact that it's so much bullshit, I hope you feel better for believing it.

This section is going to be great.
All you right winged, christian, homo-phobic, redneck, NIMBY, assholes will have a place to come together and "Have yourselves a ****** hanging party :rebelflag "
Anybody but Bush
Have fun, I am sure I will tune in from time to time. :goodfinge :goodfinge

-Right Winged, and proud of it
-Christian, and thankful
-homo-phobic, no, but 'marriage' is still between a man and woman
-NIMBY, as in the Kennedy clan fighting clean energy prduction off Martha's Vinyard?
-Asshole, Been called worse (by better people)

Apparently the racial slangs are a comfortable part of the liberal vocabulary.

"anybody but Bush" I'll leave my sig for that one.

umm Texas is not all polluted and sh!t and bankrupt. The several times i went to houston you could actually see a blue sky, and they are always making improvements in the state

Yup, thats why I say things. Mostly cuz I love you guys and gals and its all in good fun. Nothing better than breaking each others balls over politics.:clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap

Im homo-phobic! :toothless

God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve :shocked

are you off the meds again Beerman?

Im homo-phobic! :toothless

God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve :shocked


Hey thtop it, that'th not nithe ............Bitch :goodfinge

Beerman, I laughed so hard at your initial comments that it blew my white sheet right off. Thats ok though, it landed over the mutilated body of the fag me and my skin-headed buddies mauled last night!!! :thumbup

its just when he misprounces words like "abu ghraib", it shows he doesnt care enough to learn how to pronounce it correctly.

i have yet to hear ONE good arguement for no gay marriage. go ahead and try it, you cant do it. your bible dont mean shit, so those arguements are no good. dont try that "maintain the sanctitiy of marriage" either. lets work on the 50% divorce rate first. look, i dont like it when guys are really gay either. we know you are gay, nobody cares, now leave me alone. but thats no reason why they cant get married. i know alot more annoying straight people.


sweet
http://www.tripias.com/state/

Im homo-phobic! :toothless

God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve :shocked


what about lilith and eve? or did everyone just forget lilith? anyway, I'm not homo-phobic. I'm not afraid of humans. Any humans.


well, except thos chainsaw weilding lunatics from east texas. and that jack the ripper guy. and that freak charles manson..... and....

~Critter

I've seen that crock before, beerman. Besides the fact that it's so much bullshit, I hope you feel better for believing it.

bxl, i'm disappointed in you. all you did was make yet ANOTHER bs call without backing it up! no surprise there, it's what you delusional right wing conservacrats do, then, isn't it. don't try to deny it. we all know you're lying. just proves how hard the hook was set. oh wait, i forgot, i don't take you seriously anymore. let me just laugh at you like i said i would.
:histerica :histerica :histerica :histerica :histerica :histerica

and how come you missed a golden opportunity to call yet another fsb'er a Communist while you were at it? for shame.

its just when he misprounces words like "abu ghraib", it shows he doesnt care enough to learn how to pronounce it correctly.

i have yet to hear ONE good arguement for no gay marriage. go ahead and try it, you cant do it. your bible dont mean shit, so those arguements are no good. dont try that "maintain the sanctitiy of marriage" either. lets work on the 50% divorce rate first. look, i dont like it when guys are really gay either. we know you are gay, nobody cares, now leave me alone. but thats no reason why they cant get married. i know alot more annoying straight people.


sweet
http://www.tripias.com/state/

Its wrong because its UNNATURAL. Even if you assume there is no God (which there is) and there are no MORAL ramifications involved, you still have to observe the EXIT signs. Homosexuals are putting a square peg into a round hole when they have sex. Its using their equipment improperly. Its like using a sledgehammer to kill a fly. You can do it, but its not what it was manufactured to do.
As for homophobia, I am tolerant and can forgive them for what I believe is morally abhorrent behavior. I am not scared OF them, I am scared FOR them.

Its wrong because its UNNATURAL. Even if you assume there is no God (which there is) and there are no MORAL ramifications involved, you still have to observe the EXIT signs. Homosexuals are putting a square peg into a round hole when they have sex. Its using their equipment improperly. Its like using a sledgehammer to kill a fly. You can do it, but its not what it was manufactured to do.
As for homophobia, I am tolerant and can forgive them for what I believe is morally abhorrent behavior. I am not scared OF them, I am scared FOR them.

thank you for proving my point. sure, you cant have kids having sex that way, but why does that not allow them the right to get married? lots of men have anal sex with women, should they not be allowed to marry?

thank you for proving my point. sure, you cant have kids having sex that way, but why does that not allow them the right to get married? lots of men have anal sex with women, should they not be allowed to marry?

Apparently, based on your statements, you have a different definition of marriage then I do. Marriage, in my opinion, is the mutual bonding of 2 people who want to be life partners, PROCREATE and raise a family. It sounds like your definition of marriage is simply "going together"....maybe adopt a few kids like they were family pets. So, I didn't prove your point, I proved MY point. I just clearly defined the differences in our understanding of what constitutes marriage.

Really though, while its always great to debate...whats the point really? People who feel strongly enough to debate their views on these forums are not ever going to change their values. So other then making fiery commentary on social views and getting opposing perspective, nothing ever gets accomplished.

The only debate that truly accomplishes ANYTHING happens during an election when true change can be had when people speak their minds at the polls. And the ones who swing from one side of the aisle to the other determine the outcome. The ones who KNOW what they believe and know WHY they believe it are not swayed by the perceptions portrayed on the media. They vote what they BELIEVE is true...everyone else is just voting in a popularity contest.

I don't agree with you, but I respect your right to believe it and express it. :thumbup

bxl, i'm disappointed in you. all you did was make yet ANOTHER bs call without backing it up! no surprise there, it's what you delusional right wing conservacrats do, then, isn't it. don't try to deny it. we all know you're lying. just proves how hard the hook was set. oh wait, i forgot, i don't take you seriously anymore. let me just laugh at you like i said i would.
:histerica :histerica :histerica :histerica :histerica :histerica

and how come you missed a golden opportunity to call yet another fsb'er a Communist while you were at it? for shame.

Jack___, get a grip, would you? Anyone with a greater awareness then one who's reading is limited to Pravda would know the facts of the matter instead of completely relying on DNC buttboys for this info. Just for you, I'll post a link to just one of the many rebuttals of this DNC pap (it is, after all, 45 pages long), but keep this in mind: If, for example, you didn't know that both KERRY AND CLINTON lost their first elections when THEY ran for congress... well, that makes you an ignorant twit.

That said, the hypocrisy of your support for Kerry is the issue. The fact that you keep coming around so I can bitch-slap you can become problematic for you, but I'm always up for the light work out you present.

Further, we both know you've become fixated on me to the point where you feel compelled to start speaking for everyone else that I disagree with. That's kinda sick, really, so, here's hoping you'll get back on your meds or something.

In closing, (let's remember here that even after all the manure you've been spreading around you have YET to show where I've been wrong or lied, while I, on the other hand, have tap danced all over your pinhead on those very same matters) you'll have to do much, much better than this... because really, your effort here ain't shit.

http://www.filestash.net/The_Truth.pdf

Maybe you can take THAT seriously.

Apparently, based on your statements, you have a different definition of marriage then I do. Marriage, in my opinion, is the mutual bonding of 2 people who want to be life partners, PROCREATE and raise a family. It sounds like your definition of marriage is simply "going together"....maybe adopt a few kids like they were family pets. So, I didn't prove your point, I proved MY point. I just clearly defined the differences in our understanding of what constitutes marriage.


So, since my wife and can't have kids naturally, the two children we took in as foster children and then adopted because their "parents" were more concerned with getting their fix then pre-natal care are our pets and our marraige is wrong? :shrug

So, since my wife and can't have kids naturally, the two children we took in as foster children and then adopted because their "parents" were more concerned with getting their fix then pre-natal care are our pets and our marraige is wrong? :shrug

I pet my brother and sister whenever they come and beg at the table. Sometimes I'll even throw them a crouton or two. :wacko

Clear that statement up AdamG...not sure where you are going with that.

its just when he misprounces words like "abu ghraib", it shows he doesnt care enough to learn how to pronounce it correctly.

i have yet to hear ONE good arguement for no gay marriage. go ahead and try it, you cant do it. your bible dont mean shit, so those arguements are no good. dont try that "maintain the sanctitiy of marriage" either. lets work on the 50% divorce rate first. look, i dont like it when guys are really gay either. we know you are gay, nobody cares, now leave me alone. but thats no reason why they cant get married. i know alot more annoying straight people.


sweet
http://www.tripias.com/state/

Well if there are no Biblical/Christian arguements allowed. The only one remaining is teh fact that if the marraige is recognized by law, then benefits such as SS, Medicare, ect are "given" to the partner. Since homosexuality is something I disagree with, I will oppose the "marraige" of them on these grounds.

Steve, 1st of all, I am glad you and your wife have full hearts and have adopted 2 kids. I think its wonderful that you have taken the opportunity to bless their lives.

As for my statement, I was merely making it in support of my previous statement that homosexuality is unnatural in regards to reproduction. Obviously, you and your wife were "designed" to reproduce and have children. That doesn't make it unnatural or wrong, it merely means you have been unable to do so..for NATURAL reasons.

I guess the use of analogy is not always the best way to explain a point of view as it can be either a) misconstrued or b) twisted around

So, Steve and Stang, are you saying that homosexual sexual activity IS natural? Are you saying that it is the way NATURE (or God in my personal opinion) intended it to be? If you believe that to be true, I would like to hear on what basis you think so. :shrug

Steve, 1st of all, I am glad you and your wife have full hearts and have adopted 2 kids. I think its wonderful that you have taken the opportunity to bless their lives.

As for my statement, I was merely making it in support of my previous statement that homosexuality is unnatural in regards to reproduction. Obviously, you and your wife were "designed" to reproduce and have children. That doesn't make it unnatural or wrong, it merely means you have been unable to do so..for NATURAL reasons.

Thanks for clearing that up :thumbup

As far as my opinion on homosexuality, I would be a hypocrite if I said I was against it, since the idea of seeing two women getting it on peaks my interest, while the idea of seeing two men in the same situation make me cringe. Is it wrong? I don't know, I do know I would rather not see it. In regards to their right to marry I don't see a problem with it. The few gay couples that I know are no less devoted to each other than my wife and I are to each other. Besides, why shouldn't they experience the same joy/misery of marraige that we as heterosexuals are legally entitled to endure. Are gays second class citizens, are they less worthy of the rights and priveleges that non-gays are? Should we start making them ride on the back of the bus, and drink from different fountians, put them in internment camp? Let them live their lives as they see fit. Don't ask don't tell. I'm not going to begin a religious debate, because that will get more heated than all this politcal BS that's being posted.

So, Steve and Stang, are you saying that homosexual sexual activity IS natural? Are you saying that it is the way NATURE (or God in my personal opinion) intended it to be? If you believe that to be true, I would like to hear on what basis you think so. :shrug

Sorry if this is hijacking. Adam and I can always take it to Pms if this goes too far into a convo.

I didn't imply anything or say anything. I merely was trying to get a more clear view on what you were saying about procreation and adoption.

My view on the "is gay sex natural". To clear the board, i am not religious...at all. So my views are strictly my veiws and have not been influenced by a church or religion. They are those of "Ian-ism".

Ok, so is it natural? Probably not. I've never seen any other animals have gay sex...and it also defeats the ultimate purpose of sex...reproduction. If nature or God, or whatever, didn't intent for gay relationships...then why have gays been around since the dawn of time. It's only recently that they have been able to openly admit that they are gay.

Think about it. Back in the old days...if you were gay...you were killed. So did they have gays back then? I'm willing to bet they did!

Back to the point. So let's say there is a God, for a moment. Assuming no particular religion, just that there is an ultimate creator with a grand pupose...so as to leave no one out. They say that gays have no control over how they feel. It's not something that they just decided one day...it's actually inside of them. Like you or I loving a woman, we can't help it, we can't help the attraction....well supposedly, neither can those who are gay. So then why did God create them that way? If he did, then isn't gay sex natural? I'm just playing devils advocate.

I'm sure I'll have more to add. But I'll let this sit for a few.

ok....well, that was my only point, that gay sex is unnatural. I am keeping my religious faith out of it. Squatty had asked in an earlier post if anyone could argue against homosexual marriage without basing the argument on religion, the bible, etc. I was merely trying to do that. I think mny comments were taken out of contect. I also apologize if I am taking part in a hijacking!

If gay sex was normal, God wouldn't make women look like this http://fullsizebronco.com/forum/image.php?u=1270&dateline=1088972117

If gay sex was normal, God wouldn't make women look like this http://fullsizebronco.com/forum/image.php?u=1270&dateline=1088972117

Amen to that.

No problem Adam. I'm still not sure that anyone can make a good argument against homosexual marriage, without dragging religion into it. You had a good start...but I'm not buying it. Nothing personal :beer

God, I love you guys....Oh shit! *homo-phobia kicks in* I mean you guys are cool in a manly kinda way...:toothless


Isn't FSB great?? :rockon

Amen to that.

No problem Adam. I'm still not sure that anyone can make a good argument against homosexual marriage, without dragging religion into it. You had a good start...but I'm not buying it. Nothing personal :beer

Actually, my point was perfectly valid and well-stated. But, as with any thing else this emotionally charged, was that gay sex was unnatural. And since you stated earlier that you agreed, you validated my point! :thumbup

As for God making women like Gina, the "natural" process of reproduction is clearly stated once a month when Aunt Flo visits and I sleep on the couch!!!!! :banghead

As for God making women like Gina, the "natural" process of reproduction is clearly stated once a month when Aunt Flo visits and I sleep on the couch!!!!! :banghead

Gina sleeps with aunt once a month :shrug :brownbag

Actually, my point was perfectly valid and well-stated. But, as with any thing else this emotionally charged, was that gay sex was unnatural. And since you stated earlier that you agreed, you validated my point! :thumbup


I didn't state that I agreed. Re-read that. I just played both views.

Your point is well-stated....but I disagree with it and personally don't think that it is a sound argument. It's my .02....that's all.

EDIT:

Gina sleeps with aunt once a month :shrug :brownbag


Is that natural? :shrug

Does anyone besides me actually know a few gay people? One man I've met has lived well beyond what was expected (16) and chose men. He's acctually a good person once you get past the occassional advance (which I'm glad me and my SO have been together for a while). I've also met a friend of my GF's who is a lesbian, also a good person. I wouldn't deny these people the right to marry whomever they choose. I've made my choice, and they deserve it too.

~Critter

I didn't state that I agreed. Re-read that. I just played both views.

Your point is well-stated....but I disagree with it and personally don't think that it is a sound argument. It's my .02....that's all.

EDIT:



Is that natural? :shrug

ok....so explain why my argument is flawed. Obviously I have had to explain MY points, so you explain yours. You can't just say its not a sound argument without anything to support your opposition. You can say that you don't agree, but that still doesn't explain WHY you disagree.

Also, if I said Gina slept with her Aunt, which obviously I didn't, I didn't say it was natural or right, I was just stating that it happens. :shrug

Yea, critter, one of my buddies went the gay route. Great kid, never would even think of hitting on a friend or making any situation uncomfotable...hell, never would have known he was gay until he told us all.

Yea, critter, one of my buddies went the gay route. Great kid, never would even think of hitting on a friend or making any situation uncomfotable...hell, never would have known he was gay until he told us all.


the guy I mentioned is also epileptic, and has a whole slew of things he's on good drugs for. but like I said, he was only expected to live to be 16, but he's in his mid to late 20's now. And that's why we need to lower prescription drug costs for all!

~Critter

ok....so explain why my argument is flawed. Obviously I have had to explain MY points, so you explain yours. You can't just say its not a sound argument without anything to support your opposition. You can say that you don't agree, but that still doesn't explain WHY you disagree.

Also, if I said Gina slept with her Aunt, which obviously I didn't, I didn't say it was natural or right, I was just stating that it happens. :shrug

I didn't say it is flawed. I say that it is not sound because you stated that it is "un-natural". Who are you to judge what is and isn't natural? :shrug

I don't veiw gay sex as either natural or unnatural. I don't know the definition of natural...so I can't judge it. I DO think that they have a right to do what they want, in regaurds to sex and marriage, regaurdles of who does or does not think it is "natural".

Stepping back on the plate. In regaurds to sex being unnatural in reference to reproduction..yes...it is unnatural, there is no denying that. But, have you ever worn a rubber during sex? Isn't that unnatural? Why is that any different? At that point arn't you only having sex for the purpose of pleasure?

As for the comment regaurding your aunt etc. I was just ribbin ya...trying to lighten the atmosphere a little. Sorry if you took it the wrong way.

Again. This isn't personal.

the reason why your arguement is flawed, is because the only reasons you gave were because you thought it was icky, and that you cant have kids. there aint much beautiful about a heterosexual couple with a gross weight of 582lbs goin at it either, doesnt mean they should have the right to do it. and in no definition of marriage does it say anything about kids. we (people) created marriage, so if we have some old ass definition of it, change it.

the point is you should have the RIGHT to do whatever you want, no matter who you are in this country, cause thats why this country was created. (normal disclaimer about except when it brings harm to others; so far i see no harm that gay marriage can do you, me, or fred flinstone)

As an atheist, I'll throw in my 2 bits.

The "Golden Rule" is the only commandment I need. Biology tells me that there is a real reason for two sexes; reproduction. The only sexual aberration I know of is hermaphroditism. As far as I'm concerned, homosexuality is just a state of mind. Kids, girls more often than boys, may experiment with it as part of the growing-up process. But nobody has ever discovered any physical basis to show that it can be a "natural" condition.

Besides, the only thing I can think of that can't be satisfied by some contractual arrangement is Social Security survivor benefits. And I suppose some clever lawyer could find a way around that.

Marriage? No! And we certified that last Tuesday here in Missouri.

Originally Posted by ValkariaKid
Interesting points BXL, but pointing out other places where discrimination runs rampant within our government and the seeming insurmountable struggle one would face in correcting them still doesn't justify any of them. That's akin to saying: "It's too hard to change course so don't bother trying, and let's just continue along the same wrong path we've been on".

Sorry. The idea that you want to extend an additional, non-existent right to any group of people merely because of their lifestyle choice does not provide adequate reason or legal logic to do so.

Let’s keep in mind the fact that no one is denying gays the right to marry. The denial is the “right” (non-existent in the 400 years of successful Western society on the North American Continent) to marry someone of the same gender. Anyone homosexual who cares to may, under most circumstances, marry anyone they like.

To that end, there is no legally compelling reason to extend a previously non-existent right to anyone for anything.

Quote:
The problem with that logic is that if we continue along that same path of discrimination more and more groups of Americans will suffer from our government's propensity for enacting new laws that take even more rights away from us simply because our lawmakers feel the need to wrongly impose their own moral, ethical, and religious beliefs upon us.

So… what “rights” have been “taken away from you?” And why is it this issue that you defend so strongly? Why aren’t you advocating the ending of affirmative action? Why don’t you fight to end discrimination by the military against women in combat? Why don’t you fight to end discrimination against men on college campuses, where 56% and climbing of all graduates are female?

There are so many forms of discrimination that you, and so many others, just accept. Yet here, on this issue, you draw the line?

And let’s remember: your concern over “our lawmakers feel[ing] the need to wrongly impose their moral, ethical, and religious beliefs upon us” is solved by the exercise of democracy. Because any time anyone is elected to any law-making office, you are also electing their moral, ethical and religious beliefs. They are no more separable from themselves then they would be from you.

Even politicians who may actually SUPPORT gay marriage are doing that very thing… attempting to impose THEIR morals, ethics and religious beliefs (or lack of them) on us. In this instance, you merely point out that you only object to such a practice when the end product is something you don’t support. Frankly, I don’t believe you can have it both ways.

Quote:
That's just criminal, shouldn't be tolerated, and we shouldn't have to fight now to reverse this course because it shouldn't have ever been followed in the first place.

Actually, things are “criminal” only when a law has been violated. If such a thing is “criminal” merely because YOU say so, then anyone else could say that ALL homosexual conduct is “criminal” merely because THEY say so.

Speaking of “criminal,” would you think that the lesbian Justice on the Massachusetts Supreme Court who ruled in favor of gay marriage should have recused herself? I mean, God forbid that SHE would impose HER “moral, ethical and religious beliefs" on US…. Right?

Quote:
In the past similar battles have been fought, and courses were reversed. Women can now vote, and serve in the military. Blacks can now vote. And in the state of Massachusetts Gays can now legally 'form a union'.

And for women to serve and blacks to vote, both required a compelling legal interest to do so. And while women do serve, that service is severely restricted, is it not? And you do understand that the Supreme Court decision in Mass declared that “unions” were unconstitutional and that only marriage would do, don’t you?

“BOSTON — The Massachusetts high court ruled today that only full, equal marriage rights for gay couples — rather than civil unions — would be constitutional, erasing any doubts that the nation's first same-sex marriages could take place in the state beginning in mid-May.”

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These newly given rights should have never been made illegal in the first place.

These rights are “non-existent,“ to the extent that no gay is denied the right to marry anyone so choosing, as long as they are of the opposite gender.

I wrote:
Quote:
Sorry. denying marriage to same sex couples has nothing to do with telling you, or anyone else, how to live their life.

You replied:
Quote:
Sure it does! It's telling same sex couples that they can't live married lives like opposite-sex couples can.

NOT TRUE. Gays can marry someone just like straights can. They, EXACTLY LIKE STRAIGHTS, must marry someone of another gender. Further, since when does “living a married life” require a license from the state? People are living together all the time… doing everything that married couples do. Most rights of marriage can be included in a civil contract between the parties that has the exact same force of law. At this point, about the only legal thing denied gay couples is the issue of “married, filing jointly” on tax returns, an issue I have no problem fixing.

I wrote:
Quote:
Being gay is not illegal. Living with someone of the same sex, and/or engaging in sex acts with someone of the same sex in and of itself is not illegal.

You replied:
Quote:
You'd think they weren't, but think again. There are so many bizzare sex laws in this country comparable in idiocy to the one that banned same-sex marriages.
http://www.lectlaw.com/tsex.htm
http://www.sodomylaws.org/
http://www.weirdsexlaws.com/

Most of those laws were struck down by the Supreme Court in Lawrence and Garner v. Texas, case no. 02-0102. Any remaining are not being enforced, and, therefore have no force in law, which goes to my initial observation concerning homosexual legality.

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I wonder how many of those insane laws you were ever guilty of.

Kinky. Let’s talk about leather.

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Well only time will tell on that one.

Nope. The writing is on the wall, and gay marriage is DOA.

Quote:
***On a side note***
You are just as guilty as anyone else here that doled out personal attacks so you have no right to chastise anyone for it. You too have pretty large dents in your credibility for doing both.

Thank you for assuming the role of thread police. But you should also admit that my initial efforts on this thread had nothing to do with personal attacks. I merely rose to the occasion.

Quote:
And when did I ever say that I admired Bill Clinton?

You mean he isn’t one of those “religious zealots” you were talking about here:

Quote:
If religion stayed separate from government like it should be this issue would've never arisen, but unfortunately our government is loaded with religious zealots that get off imposing their moral and religious ideals on the very people they're supposed to represent.

Sorry. I obviously misunderstood.

Squatty, I never said it was "icky" in my statement, I said it was not as nature had intended. You said make an argument without using religion as a basis, I did that.

As for rights, rights are created by the people leading a society. This society was based on Christion values. You might remember the "One nation under God" thing we used to say in our schools before all the left-wing tree huggers decided they wanted to change the values our society is based on. Right, wrong or indifferent, thats the stance our country was founded on. Yes, we have freedom against intolerance in this country. And for that reason, people can do as they choose with their lives. But, that doesn't mean they deserve the same rights as everyone else. Criminals are not given the same rights as everyone else. Homosexuals should not either. Crime is a choice and so is homosexuality.

Stang, 1st, I didnt take the comment about Gina personal at all..I knew it was in jest.

Also, sex with a rubber is not necessarily unnatural, it is a variation of normal sex with the intent of preventing reproduction. Its still sex between 2 creatures as nature intended it to be. And yes, its supposed to be pleasurable. The pleasure is what nature uses to promote reproduction. So, yes, its natural to have sex merely for the pleasure.

Lastly, a marriage cannot be consumated without sex, driving down the Hershey highway is not natural sex. Therefore, gay sex cannot consumate a marriage.

Nice debate...too bad we cant do this over a beer or 12. :beer

But, that doesn't mean they deserve the same rights as everyone else. Criminals are not given the same rights as everyone else. Homosexuals should not either. Crime is a choice and so is homosexuality.
Dude. You just compared gays to criminals. Has a homosexual ever harmed you..or anyone else. If so they are a criminal. However, most of them arn't criminals...they are human being who have done nothing wrong other then desire to be with someone of the same sex. Do you choose to like women? I have NO CHOICE but to like women...shit, there is no way that I couldn't be all about women. Hell, I see a hot chick and I pitch a tent whether I choose to or not!


Stang, 1st, I didnt take the comment about Gina personal at all..I knew it was in jest.
Good :thumbup


Also, sex with a rubber is not necessarily unnatural, it is a variation of normal sex with the intent of preventing reproduction. Its still sex between 2 creatures as nature intended it to be. And yes, its supposed to be pleasurable. The pleasure is what nature uses to promote reproduction. So, yes, its natural to have sex merely for the pleasure.
Am I not correct in assuming the whole...Christains again contraception idealogy? I thought that was the way it was. Ok, regaurdless...you have now admitted that it is natural for gays to have sex...as long as it is for pleasure.

Lastly, a marriage cannot be consumated without sex, driving down the Hershey highway is not natural sex. Therefore, gay sex cannot consumate a marriage.

Ok. In a hypothetical situation. you meet this incredible girl. You love her more then words explain. However, there is no way, due to medical problems, that she can ever have sex with you. Regaurdless, you get married to show your love and devotion to he. Well, you can only plug her in the pooper for the rest of your days. So, you and this incredible girl cannot consumate a marriage? Is the marriage worthless because of her unusable slot?




Nice debate...too bad we cant do this over a beer or 12. :beer
Absolutely, I argue better in person anyway :toothless :beer Maybe someday we can sit down and battle this out until we are inebriated.

Oh yea. And take my sense of humor with a grain of salt.

rant rant rant.......................rant.


The weiner thing is all making sense now :goodfinge

The weiner thing is all making sense now :goodfinge

You would think that you would calm yourself seeing as I'm stickin up for your type. :lowblow

You would think that you would calm yourself seeing as I'm stickin it up one of your type. :lowblow


Stand back Ray-ban boy, I may be a colorful person, but don't pin a rainbow ribbon on me :thehand :goodfinge

We should rename this forum "The Closet". You guys can come out now. :toothless

We should rename this forum "The Closet". You guys can come out now. :toothless


You're in here too :goodfinge Besides I'm not in the closet, I will openly admit to being a lesbian. :toothless

:histerica :histerica :histerica :histerica :histerica :histerica

Being an old, ignorant, country boy I'm thinking FSB is going to be a place for manly men to trade ideas on mechanical stuff, maybe check out some naked women, tell some dirty jokes, burp, fart, drink beer, etc. Generally kinda like hanging out down at Cooter's garage only on the internet.

How in the hell does the thread on FSB about gay sex and or marraige get more traffic and replies than ANDY351's 14 bolt thread or extended and boxed radius arm build.

This is a joke right? Where's the camera? I know ya'll are watching...

:histerica :histerica :histerica :histerica :histerica :histerica

Has a homosexual ever harmed you..or anyone else.Hmmmm. Brings Jeffery Dahamer to mind."It's too hard to change course so don't bother trying, and let's just continue along the same wrong path we've been on".Okay. So lets relax time honored social rules and let men marry men and women marry women. Never mind biology, let's just accept that there are differences in lifestyles that deserve recognition and acceptance.

What about a 40 year old man and a 12 year old girl that decide, mutually, that they want to get married? Now don't tell me that it can't happen. The practice of homosexuality was once a crime, too! Suppose too, that some judge might decide someday that incest is "just another lifestyle".

What are the limits?

Hmmmm. Brings Jeffery Dahamer to mind.
Next time, quote my entire statement :toothless


Okay. So lets relax time honored social rules and let men marry men and women marry women. Never mind biology, let's just accept that there are differences in lifestyles that deserve recognition and acceptance.

What about a 40 year old man and a 12 year old girl that decide, mutually, that they want to get married? Now don't tell me that it can't happen. The practice of homosexuality was once a crime, too! Suppose too, that some judge might decide someday that incest is "just another lifestyle".

What are the limits?

You all are trying to compare apples to oranges. Gays to pedefiles? Yea. Why doesn't a woman marry a donkey. Common now! That is just as bad of an argument as the "un-natural" one.

Everyone needs to sit back for a second and think about how they would feel if they had a gay son or daughter. I bet your views changed. And don't tell me they wouldn't....

Again, marv, nothing personal. I appreciate you jumping in, I repect your opinion.

Thanx stang, and I honestly respect yours, too.

My differences are that sometimes change just isn't thought out - "slippery slope" and that sort of stuff. When I was in high school in the early fifties, only the losers even thought about smoking pot. Now it's legal in a couple of states and high school kids think it's "cool" to at least try it. Then crack. Then...?

In the sixties, a popular attitude was, "I can do anything I want to as long as I don't hurt anybody." How does anybody know whether or not they've hurt somebody else? It takes a third-party to judge that. That was authority which they didn't recognize or accept.

I lived in Fortville, Indiana before retiring in '92. There was a nice couple across the street with a couple of sweet high school age daughters. The older one went to Indiana University where she first got into drugs, dropped out, and then started posing for porn. She probably thought it was "cool", at least at first, and she wasn't hurting anybody. What about her parents, her sister, herself?

If an inch today, why not six tomorrow, or twelve the day after? If gay marriage can be acceptable today, why not pedophilia down the road, say 20 or 30 or 40 years? Maybe incest even. O'Reilly on Fox News has had a crusade against a "Man-Boy" web site this past year. How much farther will it go?

Sorry to all for the sermon, but I've lived a lot of years and seen a lot of shit happen. And sometimes I get very tired.

Well-stated Marv. Our society just gets desensitized to this stuff to the point where they feel its acceptable behavior.

And yes Stang, he did compare homos to pedophiles. And I am not speaking for Marv when I say this, cuz I don't do that. I think its a perfectly acceptable comparison. I feel the gradual reduction in moral fiber in our society has led us to accept immoraL behavior as normal. I hate to go down a slippery slope, but I feel our society is already halfway down the slope. Maybe if we can keep Bush in office, we can halt the slide. :thumbup

Stang, don't take this personally, I appreciate and respect your opinions of acceptance and inclusion, but you obviously put this acceptance and inclusion above the moral implications. If my daughter chose a homosexual lifestyle, despite her upbringing, I would neither accept or approve. I would still love her and do anything for her, but I would not support such behavior. If she got involved in drugs it would be the same. I would do whatever it took to help her and continue the unconditional love of a parent without enabling the behavior I feel is wrong.

Now, thats my last statement on this subject, it is robbing me of my valuable Bronco time. :thumbup

Thanks for the lively debate and candid opinions!

Stang, don't take this personally, I appreciate and respect your opinions of acceptance and inclusion, but you obviously put this acceptance and inclusion above the moral implications.

Since Ian's asleep.....

The reason I advocate acceptance and inclusion is actually to eliminate as much violence as possible. Convicted pedophiles are more often than not MURDERED in prison. We've all heard stories of gay males being beaten, harrassed, and sometimes killed for their sexual veiws. You almost never hear of a lesbian getting treated that way. Maybe because the sick male mind actually likes multiple partners on occassion as a throwback to the more savage side of man. The violence perpetuated against people whose only wrongdoing (in someone else's mind) is chosing the same sex for an emotional partner is what I cannot stand. how will that be dealt with?

I'm with Squatty D on this, let 'em be.

~Critter

You all are trying to compare apples to oranges. Gays to pedefiles? Yea. Why doesn't a woman marry a donkey.

OK then, how about bigomy? I'm just stupid enough to have multiple wives! :brownbag

Ian, there was a story in the news out of Maine not that long ago about a guy that was going to marry his dog :uke:

What you guys judge as "immoral" is not immoral to me. Yea ok, marv, times have changed. In the little time that I have been alive I have seen this. I can only imagine what you see. But to say that in due time grown men will be able to marry little girls is crazy. And gay marriage, is going to have zero effect on that. IMO. And we're not talking about drugs and voilence, we're talking about two people loving eachother and wanting to devote themselves to eachother for life. In what way does this effect ANYBODY but them?
Ok. So their parents might be hurt or whatever. Ok, that's understandable. I'de be dissapointed if I ever had a gay son. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to support any decision he makes as long as it is based on good judgement AND morals! Being gay is nor right or wrong. Nor is heterosexuality. It's different...and people are deathly afraid of what is different.
What does marriage mean to you that makes this such a bad thing?

Ok. My buddy is gay...pretty good buddy, pretty damn gay. I have had ALOT of really long discussion with him about how society feels about the gay community...along with how he came the conclusion that he was gay and why he chooses it.

His responses, along with some other facts, let me to my beliefs today. I used to feel the same way as Adam and Marv......and STRONGLY! I'm not calling you fella closed minded or anything of the sort, but sometimes it really helps to know what someone is going through.

Critter, thanks for the comment.

Again, this has been a great 'debate'.

But to say that in due time grown men will be able to marry little girls is crazy.

never mind that it was done for hundreds of years in the past. And remember, Juliet was only 15.

~Critter

never mind that it was done for hundreds of years in the past. And remember, Juliet was only 15.

~Critter

But she was a mature 15, besides she told Romeo she was 18 :brownbag

But she was a mature 15, besides she told Romeo she was 18 :brownbag


sure, Romeo :goodfinge

~Critter

Shit, I am lovin it. My master plan worked perfectly.

As far as my concerns go, just to throw my 2 cents in, cuz i can.

Gay marriage, dont care, if they want a union that bad, and if a farcking piece of paper helps make them the perfect union, then they probably have bigger matters they need to discuss before condering.
Marriage is way over rated in my opinion.

Pro-Creation: I am on the fence about it. Yes it is nice to have your own kid, 1maybe 2, but not 13 of the lil MF's If you want to have that many kids, then adopt. There are thousands of children that need good quality caring parents, and check with your employer, fact is most reputable employers pay for or assist in the financial obligations of child adoptions.
This world is way over populated.

I have said it before and I will say it again, if you cant feed them, dont breed them. And to add to that, if you have an "accident", dont have 3 or 4 more accidents to increase the government check you get monthly.

Politics/Religion: You show me a politicain that isnt a liar, backstabbing, SOB, or a religion that hasnt killed millions, or corrupted nations, started wars, etc. then I will sell you some ocean front property in Utah.

Religion is the #1 killer of innocent people of all time, and all over an imaginary friend that no one can prove. That "proves" to me that most of the world are complete uneducated retards that need to find answers to life in them selves, or in a better book than the shit paper they are holding in the hands, or reading to their children at night. Maybe if they "thought" or "Inquired" on something that can be triggered by one of the 5 senses, then they can find a better answer to life.
Until you can smell, see, touch, hear, or taste god, it doesnt exist.


So thats my 2 cents, I challenge anyone here to prove me wrong, because I know you cant. That is why I carry a smile on my face, I know that my disbeliefs are not based on faith, but on a reasonable dought.

Another thing I have challenged reliogous people to do is this:
Next time your child gets Pnuemonia, and is coughing up blood, and mucus, ask your god to fix the child.
The moment you take your child to a Dr., your seeking Science. A science that has proven millions of times that it carries cures for many illness's, and ailments.
god did not create penecilin, so dont give him credit for it.

So, my icing on the cake is this: Seek Science and you shall learn the truth. It feels better to know that you dont "imagine" and have "faith", and soon enough when you wake up and come out to the real world, you will feel really silly that you ever believed in a god, kinda like that feeling you got in fifth grade when you found out that there isnt a Santa Claus and no tooth fairy......

Imagination created Lord of the Rings
Imagination created the bible, news is they are both "neat" stories and shouldnt be used to base life choices, goals, or morals on.

MORALS, uhhh, morals should be taught by your parents, family, and or care givers. Teachers, councelers. Not church.
Until the church can pull their hands out of childrens pants, I dont think they should have a say in Morals.
If your god (is real) how can s/he witness the constant raping of children that goes on in these churches, then he is a god that I dont want to meet anyway, he is a coward and a tyrant that is doing this for his own sick way of getting off.
I would love the opportunity to challenge him, if only he were "man" enough to challenge me.
(I hope you understand the "secret" message in that last sentence)

Again, just my opinion.

"Until you can smell, see, touch, hear, or taste god, it doesnt exist."


HHHmmmm. Kinda like oxygen, right?

"Until you can smell, see, touch, hear, or taste god, it doesnt exist."


HHHmmmm. Kinda like oxygen, right?

Scientifically proven oxygen...yes, exactly. :twak

I love reading your posts beerman. No holds!

Next time though, you should tell us how you REALLY feel.

I think that was about 5 cents worth Beerman.

Can't argue with anything you said, beerguy. But maybe the way you said it.....? :rolleyes:

HHHmmmm. Kinda like oxygen, right?


another stellar rebuttal

"Have yourselves a ****** hanging party WTF

I am not feeling this at all!

Scientifically proven oxygen...yes, exactly. :twak

I love reading your posts beerman. No holds!

Next time though, you should tell us how you REALLY feel.


Sorry, stangman... I missed the part where you could smell, see, touch, hear or taste it.

Juuuust an observation....

Look... I have serious doubts about the issue. I'm willing to allow as to how it could be a way to explain the unexplainable.

But in my time... particularly in the military... I've seen things that defy... what? Any rational explanation? I've seen people survive that had no business surviving. Sometimes, I believe my survival thru some reasonably hairy situations was the hand of God.

But I'll also tell you this: NOTHING ****s up the relationship with God like religion... so, to that extent, I'm in agreement. :drinkbud :beer

another stellar rebuttal

another stellar observation

Sorry, stangman... I missed the part where you could smell, see, touch, hear or taste it.

Juuuust an observation....



And the search begins to find out if anyone has ever seen an oxygen atom. :toothless

i guess no one ever felt the breeze moving air molecules across their face...

i guess no one ever felt the breeze moving air molecules across their face...

I have only felt the nitrogen in the air. Never the oxygen.

But in my time... particularly in the military... I've seen things that defy... what? Any rational explanation? I've seen people survive that had no business surviving. Sometimes, I believe my survival thru some reasonably hairy situations was the hand of God.

I've heard about similar situations (although reading and experiencing are two different things) and as often as it's God, it's also a stubborn refusal of Death.

But I'll also tell you this: NOTHING ****s up the relationship with God like religion... so, to that extent, I'm in agreement. :drinkbud :beer

Got that right. God may exist, but his true name will never be known. Some poor sap gets to heaven, and St Peter says let me introduce you to god. John, Meet Joe. :goodfinge

~Critter

So anyone going to challenge the data posted in YOUR presidents resume?????

All this talk about Kerry "and his lies", makes me want to vomit shit.
Can any of you tards name any president that didnt lie?

So anyone going to challenge the data posted in YOUR presidents resume????"They" have been challenging Bush's data for four years and haven't been able to find anything substantial enough to hang an a hat on.

All this talk about Kerry "and his lies", makes me want to vomit shit.
Can any of you tards name any president that didnt lie?

George Washington....he said so himself. :goodfinge

So anyone going to challenge the data posted in YOUR presidents resume?????

All this talk about Kerry "and his lies", makes me want to vomit shit.
Can any of you tards name any president that didnt lie?


Like it or not he is YOUR president too, or did you move to Canada :shrug

All this talk about Kerry "and his lies", makes me want to vomit shit.
Can any of you tards name any president that didnt lie?

Was Kerry president in Vietnam too.... God that guy is busy no wonder he has no record in the senate .... :goodfinge

I like going offroad in my bronco with Kerry voted in It will all end and the tree huggers will have won.

Bush 04 :rockon :rockon :rockon

Jimmy Carter was about as honest a president we've had. Anybody remember him?

Double digit inflation. Double digit interest rates. Hostages in Iran. Malaise. Hell, even a rabbit tried to drown him when he went fishing in a Georgia pond! :toothless

Jimmy Carter was about as honest a president we've had. Anybody remember him?
no, but didn't his brother do something with beer??

Double digit inflation. Double digit interest rates. Hostages in Iran. Malaise.

yeah, that was a sucky time. but you can't blame it all on the prez marv. he inherited alot of problems. but before you jump down my throat, i didn't vote for him.

Hell, even a rabbit tried to drown him when he went fishing in a Georgia pond! :toothless

obviously you never saw the rabbit in monty python....



:thumbup

obviously you never saw the rabbit in monty python....

:shocked Killer Bunny!

~Critter

Jer...I am so punching you in the face next time I see you. I lost 3 IQ points from reading this thread...and I blame you.

yeah, that was a sucky time. but you can't blame it all on the prez marv. he inherited alot of problems. but before you jump down my throat, i didn't vote for him.Not jumpin' down your throat, but he created a lot of the problems. I had a 22% credit card and a 12% home mortgage. I held my nose and voted for Ford. Yeah! I'm a Republican.obviously you never saw the rabbit in monty python....I wish I could find the political cartoon, but here's the story (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_019.html). Some of you guys weren't even born then, but for the sake of history, this story made him the laughing stock of the world and hurt him as much as the Iran hostage crisis.