E4OD to 4R70W swap

I have a 96 with a 351 and E4OD with 137,000 miles. Just thinking the tranny will be due for an overhaul in the next few years and want to consider my options. Would a switch to the 4R70W be possible? Would it an improvement? Maybe even cost less? Just an idea I had.

Good question. I've never heard anyone suggest it. I'll tell you the 4R70W under the gf's parents' '97 F150 looks real similar to my E4OD

I'd try to sniff around a generic Ford truck forum; most stuff here stops at '96. I'd take a close look at the wiring diagrams for each tranny on paper first

Not much help, but keep us advised

EDIT: are the bolt patterns gonna work out? Was the 4R70W ever offered behind a non-modular motor?

The 4R70W is basically the successor to the AOD-E. Ford first started using it around 93.

I seem to remember that Ford stopped using the AOD in truck applications from 92-96... so I doubt there are any 4R70Ws with both a 5-oh bellhousing and a 4wd tailhousing.

4R70W is my future plan. It was stock in the 5.0L exploder. 1998-up are the extra premo good internals

As for the wiring and computer; your 1996 Bronco is Mass Air & OBD-II.
in 1996 all 5.8L came with E4OD for manual, but the 5.0L got both the E4OD and 4R70W.
So you can use a 5.0L/4R70W computer and harness.

These guys are the 4R70W kings: http://www.becontrols.com/
You can use a manual transmission computer, and their tranny computer if you want to spend some case.
Baumann has seen the 98-up 4R70W in 8 second Mustangs, so it can be a good tranny

They may hold up in 8 second mustangs...but for how long is my question fireguy..

Baumann has brand new 4wd 4R70W's 302/5.0 bolt pattern for $1300.00. Figured the Baumannator would talk to my 96 puter. I'd have to have driveshaft work. Either move mine or use a cross member from a 302.

302 stuff still bolts up to 351 doesn't it?

What does a good rebuild cost on a E4OD?

I was thinking for just over $2000 I could have a new 4R70W running in my Bronco.

Will the 4R70W hold up for 150,000 plus miles?

289,302 and 351w have all the same bellhousing pattern....a good rebuild on a E4OD costs about 3 arms and 2 legs (close to 2g for a decent rebuild)...if the 4R70W is any stronger than any of the other OD trannies,then IMO its worth it...but i dont know anything about those or the 4R100's

They may hold up in 8 second mustangs...but for how long is my question fireguy..
Do you understand what it takes to do the quarter mile in 8 seconds?
If it can make it to the end of the track, it passed my test.

It's a great tranny, but not the best option for towing. Look into the E4OD ungrades for heavey loads. the E4OD has better clutch lock up ablilties with big loads.

I wouldn't take out an E4OD for a 4R70W. You will need a new crossmember and driveshafts. You cna have the E4OD built pretty well these days. Most of the problems are from before 97, and bad rebuilders.

I have an AOD and don't tow anything. the 4R70W will bolt in mine wthout new driveshafts. The AOD is a sucky trans no matter what you do to it!

4R70W as mentioned evolved from the AOD and is basically a beefed up AOD. The only imporvements really needed on the 4R70W mmay be a shift kit. The 4R70W has the 2" OD band and lower gears like a 2.84 first compared to the 2.4 in Bronco AODs. The gears from the 4R70W can be retrofitted to an AOD with 2" OD band which would precluded the need for a tranny computer in a pre1992 Bronco. But in HappyJack's case he will need a computer. To say that the 4R70W is better than an AOD is true, but its not better than an AOD built with 4R70W innards, one's computer operated and one's not is the only final difference in a built 4R70W and AOD.

The E4OD can be built strong for towing but is rediculously pricey to work on and can be quirky as hell although I never had any problems with my F250 HD which had 110,000 on it when I got rid of the truck. I have an AOD in a Bronco with 203,000 miles on it.

AOD has 2 input shafts, it can never be built for high power and still keep the OD
AOD has fawked up shift points, will not stay in OD under full throttle, it keeps getting worse.

4R70W with computer programing, you can pick your shift points and keep it in OD under full throttle. It has a single input shaft so it can be built for high power.

Well I'm new to the full size stuff but I think you are both correct. I just think you are talking about two different things. One being the early AOD and the second being the AOD/E-4R70W. See here: http://www.lentechautomatics.com/rwdmodels.html

From what I have read the early AOD (Pre 88 and 6 cly models) were weak. Early AOD had oiling trouble and this was corrected in 88 I think. The AOD had a shift patern of 1st, Drive, and Overdrive. No real way to lock in 2nd gear. The strongest production AOD was in the 92-93 E/F series trucks. AOD's had the 2.4? first gear. Lentech(link above) makes a valve body that corrects the shift pattern to 1st, 2nd, Drive and overdrive is shifted automatically at highway cruise. I think the AOD was done by 94?

The AOD/E started showing up around 92. The AOD/EW in 93? The W is for the wide ratio with the lower 1st gear. If you have something with an AOD in it and it has an overdrive lock out switch in the end of shifter lever or somewhere it is an AOD/E. Wide ratio gears were in the 93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII, 94-95 T-Bird, 94-95 E/F Series, 95 Full size cars, and 96 up everything.

Then the 4R70W is as I understand the latest and greatest of this line. Again the W is for the wide ratio gears.

Now I know the E4OD has been said to be nothing more than a C-6 with an overdrive added. They are huge. My front driveshaft is about 12 miles long. With some of the problems I have read on this site about the cost and problems with the E4OD I was considering moving to the 4R70W. Thought I might even pick up gas mileage and rear wheel HP with the lighter rotating mass. I figured it took HP and gas to get that huge E40D to work. But maybe the 4R70W is too light and not the best choice for a heavy truck and slow speed wheeling.

Please keep posting information. I need all the help I can get.

The guys at level ten performance made a one piece input shaft to cure the two piece snapping issue in reference to that problem on the AOD.Me personally though, I don't tow anything so i would look into either a Beefed up AOD with the 4R70W innards and the one piece input shaft update or possibly a 4R100 if it is any more reliable when it comes to either Electronic OD trannies or OD trannies in general....

the inner shaft is for OD, remove it for a single shaft, means no more OD.
IF you spend money to remove the OD to make it stronger, you might as well buy a C6 and save $

And AODE is just a weak 4R70W, they use the same housing, slight internal changes.

the inner shaft is for OD, remove it for a single shaft, means no more OD.
IF you spend money to remove the OD to make it stronger, you might as well buy a C6 and save $

And AODE is just a weak 4R70W, they use the same housing, slight internal changes.

What about the lockup feature of the torque convertor? There are hardened shafts made be several companies including Lentec that solves the problem with the stock center shaft, so that dog doesn't hunt. The AOD can be built for a 302 or 351W. For OD, its the most logical way to go. Plus, with a 2.84 first gear in combination with a 4.1 rear, you have the equivalent of a 4.88 with the stock 2.4 first only the gearing is not as low in 3rd or overdrive.

On a disclaimer, all automatics have their shortcomings, even the C6, and heat management is the biggest thing in 4x and towing.

there is no lock up feature in the AOD torque converter. The outer shaft is for 1-2 and half of 3rd. the outer shaft drives the converter which can slip.
the inner shaft bypasses the converter, it goes threw it for lock up. 3rd gear is half and half on each shaft so you get 50% lock up. OD is 100% lock up on the inner shaft.
Remove the inner shaft, no more lock up or OD

the inner shaft is for OD, remove it for a single shaft, means no more OD.

Sorry boss, but thats not 100% accurate

Let me clear you up on a few things.

1. AODs can be built to take a FOX Mustang down a 1/4 mile track in 8 seconds.

2. The Transgo shift kit eliminates the no overdrive at full throttle. With that shift kit the 3rd to 4th shift will happin at 45,000 rpm +\- at full throttle.
http://www.transgoperformance.com/fordauto.html

3. A stock (or modified) AOD can hold 2nd to any rpm by placing the shift lever back in first after the 1st - 2nd shift happins (at higher rpms). You can then hold 2nd to any rpm. When you are ready to make the 2nd - 3rd shift, simply place the lever in D.

4. Yes the 2 piece shaft is for a locked up 3rd and 4th. No you do not loose 4th by running a 1 piece shaft and a non locking converter. You simply loose a locked up 3rd and 4th. Meaning that depending on your stall speed 3rd and 4th will run higher RPMs than they do with the 2 piece shaft and the direct drive converter.
http://www.baumannengineering.com/aodsupgr.htm


In stock form the AOD is marginal at best, but the AOD can be built to be a verry strong transmission. (it just costs mony).

I am not a huge fan of the AOD, but I am also not against it.

The AOD in my Mustang will bark second at full throttle almost every time with 275/45/17 tires. With the cheap B&M shift kit that I have, it shifts from 1st -2nd at 55,000 rpm. 2nd to 3rd at 53,000 rpms.
But due to me not having the Transgo kit, it will not shift to 4th at full throttle.
But I can install the transgo kit at any time and fix the 3rd -4th at full throttle problem.

I am not saying you should keep the AOD
Get you a 4R70W, I know how bad you want to be able to program your own shift points
:thumbup

Just wanted to clear up a few miths about the AOD.

Gee, I'm Sooo glad you showed up :lolup

Add up the AOD shift kit, wide ratio gear set, rebuild kit, input shaft and converter.
That's a lot of money to still have an AOD in the end.

$1300 for a BRAND NEW 4R70W:
http://www.becontrols.com/newtrans.htm
$425 for the computer

Or you can get a tranny from a rolled expoder for even less money

Gee, I'm Sooo glad you showed up :lolup
Sorry I been on vacation for a couple a days, figured you probably missed me and the yams.

Add up the AOD shift kit, wide ratio gear set, rebuild kit, input shaft and converter.
That's a lot of money to still have an AOD in the end.


True, just makin sure you knew it could be done.

Like I said im no fan of the AOD, but I got nothin against it either.
(exept for that clunky 3-4 shift, :twak but Im gonna fix that with a shaft and converter)

there is no lock up feature in the AOD torque converter. The outer shaft is for 1-2 and half of 3rd. the outer shaft drives the converter which can slip.
the inner shaft bypasses the converter, it goes threw it for lock up. 3rd gear is half and half on each shaft so you get 50% lock up. OD is 100% lock up on the inner shaft.
Remove the inner shaft, no more lock up or OD


:slap :histerica :histerica

I guess TCI, Lentech, Art Carr, Jett etc. are mislead Chevit and Dodgie guys. :shrug

OK,so what about the other Electronic OD trans then...the 4R100? i wanna hear this...(goes over to Baumann Engineering to view Baumannator)

Guys,

I know the temptation to switch things around from stock is fun, but here's the real deal: (sorry, there's no short answer here)

First of all, the 4R70W is a CAR trans. The designation means: 4 speed, 700 pound/feet of torque capacity, and Wide ratios. Ford says it's rated for 700 ft/lbs, but that's a gross rating and you'd never get me to believe that this trans could handle that much torque.

Anyway, the E4OD, a true truck trans, when it was introduced in 89 got off to a horrible start. And yes, it was basically a C-6 with an extra set of planetaries added, as well as a lock-up torque converter. The problem is that although the C-6 was bullet-proof, the guys assigned to the re-design goofed it all up! I worked for Ford in the early to mid 90's as a field engineer when this thing came out, and it was so bad that we used to call that tranny the E4-Oh-No! Every winter as soon as we had the first snow fall there would be plow trucks with E4-Oh-Nos lined up waiting for replacement trannys!

Well, even though it took literally years for Ford to get this tranny straightened out, the bottom line is that with all the right internal mods, this tranny wound up up being excellent. Like anything else, when folks don't understand something they are quick to blame it as being unreliable, etc.. etc., and in the case of the E4OD this bad reputation was well deserved initially. I remember there being a special Tech Svc Bulletin that was a compilation of all the previous fixes, and there were a total of 32 articles of modification in there.

The truth of the matter is that the development of the E4OD was so political that when it came out and it was a miserable failure, the powers to be didn't want to be embarrassed, so they tried to brush the whole issue under the rug. Unfortunately things were so bad, and there were so many failures that they had to make it work. Well, after many modifications, the one remaining problem was that the tranny, when used behind big blocks and diesels, would get so hot that the torque converter would weld itself to the stator support upon failure. You actually had to use a cutting torch to get them apart!

Many times it takes sharp aftermarket guys to figure things out. Well, I saw an article in an issue of Ford Truckin' magazine years ago called "Bomb Proofing the E4OD", so I called and spoke to the guy behind this amazing article which seemed to address all the issues this tranny had. His name is Jim Galatioto, the owner and brain trust of ATO Performance Transmissions in Rancho Cordova, CA. Amazingly, Ford at the time was just coming out with the center support ball bearing mod, and this guy Jim had already figured that one out, and had been doing this as part of his extensive package of rebuild modifications long before Ford even thought of it! Immediately after reading this article, and speaking to Jim, I knew I was talking to one of the sharpest automatic transmission wizards ever to walk the face of this earth! The bottom line is that this guy knows his business. He had already figured out that the reason the factory trannys were still failing, was that the stock hydraulics did not feed the torque converter enough fluid, and the fluid it was being fed, was not being exhausted from the converter quickly enough (not enough total flow through the converter to keep temperatures in check). The end result was that this previously unaddressed problem would serve to superheat the fluid during torque multiplication. This causes fluid oxidation so all the lubricating properties of the fluid go away, and ultimately total failure results! Jim also controls heat by using Torrington roller bearings instead of thrust washers in all critical locations!

The E4OD, which is a true truck tranny, when Ford finally got their arms around the problems was renamed the 4R100. This name means 4 speed, Rear Drive, 1000 pound/feet torque capacity. (They changed the name because the E4-Oh-No got such a bad reputation.) The sad part is that this really is a good tranny, as long as you update it with the right mods. The factory remanufactured units will now work well, but can be very expensive. Although still not comparatively inexpensive, the absolute best way to go is to keep the E4OD, and have Jim at ATO rebuild yours for you. Knowing what he does to these units, I have no qualms about telling you that after he is done with one of these, you will not blow it up unless you down right abuse it to the point where ANY automatic trans would not survive, even if it was out of a military tank! :chili:

I have a few E4OD's myself, and I'm planning a swap in my 89 Bronco, to go from a 302/AOD to a 460/E4OD. I just need to find a truck I can get all of the ancillary parts like the T/C shifter & brackets, cross member, driveshafts, etc. from, before I do it.

Anyway, I do have a copy of the article which shows many of the extensive mods Jim at ATO does, so if you're interested, let me know and I'll post it on my web site for downloading. (It’s 29MB in size, as I scanned it in hi-res, so emailing it is out of the question).

Let me assure you, that my recommendation of Jim's service comes totally unsolicited. I was just amazed when I tried to get the guys I worked with at Ford Engineering to talk to Jim, and they totally blew me off! Jim is a brilliant tranny man, and he can truly make any E4OD bullet-proof. I give credit where credit is due! Jim is one of the best there is, and when I'm ready, my E4OD is getting shipped cross-country to him with no hesitation, because I know that no matter how much power I can make that 460 pump out, after he gets done with that tranny, nothing will tear it up.

Jim can be reached at: ATO Performance Transmissions (916) 636-3283

Stick with the E4OD! Just spend your money wisely and have Jim do his thing! You'll be glad you did!

:rockon

I'll take that E4OD mag article