like it or not, whenever a large group of people are involved........

Thanks for changin the Subject. :D

Now I have nothing to say. :goodfinge

Why not Chris you where doing well on the other post:goodfinge have a:beer on me mabe we will see you on the trail this weekend.

PM Cretien says" western Canada.....where da fox hat?"

repost to a more correct thread title:

well broncoboy,
I am older then you.
I am also not a rat, like you.
If I see someone doing something that I feel strongly against, I tell them.

I respect you desire m j, but I don't condone any of your actions.

How can you condone my actions when you in fact are unaware of any of my actions.


As for key programs; wouldn't you like to know that said key program would be in affect and you can go do that trail any time you want, no questions asked? Sounds like a wheelers dream, eh?


no, I do not think that sounds like a wheelers dream.
It sounds like a prisoners dream.
a wheelers dream is 'no gates, no keys, wheel when and where I want'
you are a collaborator.
you are helping them take our land away.
you do not speak for me

this thread's gonna be harsh!






btw... I don't want gates or keys either,but I'll respect the closure.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by m j
well broncoboy, I am older then you.

My apologies then, but remember, it was an impression you gave me. ;)



I am also not a rat, like you.

I'm a rat? Please explain.



If I see someone doing something that I feel strongly against, I tell them.

Good, but cutting down gates is fine? :confused:



How can you condone my actions when you in fact are unaware of any of my actions.

You previously said "I respect a guy cutting the gate more then your 'key program". What more do I need to know?



no, I do not think that sounds like a wheelers dream. It sounds like a prisoners dream. a wheelers dream is 'no gates, no keys, wheel when and where I want'

Yes having no gates is the ultimate dream, but gates are a reality. The sooner you and others realize that, the sooner you and others can move on to the important details. Why are gates where they are? To keep unauthortized people off that land. Why can't wheelers get the keys for those gates that they used to? Because a select few continue with the/your "wheel when and where I want" attitude. This attitude also includes cutting the locks and/or the gates. This activity has to stop or there will be no future fo this sport . These select few just don't realize how much damage they are causing us.



you are a collaborator.

If you mean "to work jointly with others or together especially in an intellectual endeavor" then you are correct. I guess you are not?



you are helping them take our land away.

Sorry, nope!



you do not speak for me

You could not be more correct. :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NOBS!
this thread's gonna be harsh!

Yup. Such is life though. :)

:stupid

A little more fuel


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by SNIBB
if you wanna stop sounding offensive you can start with not calling strangers dicks & tellin them to STFU.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm Matt. You're Kyle. There, we're not strangers now, so.....
ha, ha. Seriously, save your social skills lesson for somebody else. I'm not interested in hearing them from a teenager.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but you are right, & im glad your open minded enuf to think about the view from the other side of the fence. but your entire story is quite a big "what if" statement, just to prove a point im sure.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Of course it's a big "what if". It was a big, run-on sentence that was meant to sound rediculous enough to maybe be humorous, but also make you think, "ya know, that's something that those wacko-tree-huggers would probably do..." And that is all it was meant as. If the dick comment offends, try imagining Dennis Leary reading it, or something (I don't know)


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
& another thing, closing what wheeling land? out here, there is ONE leagal place to wheel at in Maryland that i know of. offering another perspective, i say, if you got the places, go wheeling. again, nice pcs donkey .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The world is bigger than Maryland, my friend. You folks who think it's no big deal to tear shit up, need to pull your heads out of your asses. Pick up any 4x4 mag and you'll read about land closures all the time. Ever wonder what that phrase Tread Lightly means?
Here's a quote from an email I got last night from another list:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gang....I seldom post things of this nature as you all well know. This situation is rather grave in
that we all stand to loose land in Utah to publicly access. This doesn't just effect people that go
off road with there Broncos or what ever they drive. It also will affect many who might just wish to
go see ancient Indian culture and many other VERY historic offerings the Moab area offers. Anyone
who considers our God given right to share this with our children, the elderly, handicapped, or even
just the simple fact it is WRONG to deny anyone access as long as they respect the land, needs to go
write a E mail to that effect, hopefully helping voice a concern about closures the BLM will listen
to. Every letter counts....

Thanks for your time


The Bureau of Land management is responsible for over 3.6 million acres of public land in Grand and San Juan counties in Utah. A Resource Management Plan (RMP)
Is the document that guides the Management and policies of the land it covers.
The next RMP will guide decision making in these areas for the next 15 years.
By Federal law, the BLM must consider public opinion in the preparation of the RMP. That is where we come in.
The Moab meeting was on OCT. 16th. About fifty people attended, but only 5 from the Red Rock 4 wheelers. MOST attendees were strong advocates of either severely restricting or totally eliminating all motorized use on BLM land. We are clearly outnumbered!
The good news is that public comments will be taken until Dec 30, 2003.
We must make our voices heard if we have any hope of having our wishes and concerns being considered in the final draft of RMP.
We need all 4-wheelers to write a few comments of how important continued motorized access is to us all in Moab. You can write or email the BLM office
www.moabrmp.com or www.monticellormp.com

Look for planning action #3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I suspect I'm on Keith L's ignore list, otherwise I'd ask him to post some info on the closure of Upper/Lower Helldorado too.

I'm done with this conversation.

-matt


__________________
95xl/302/m5od/bw1356/solid d44(4.56 open)/8.8(4.56 detroit)/6"sl,
1"bl/36x14.50

got dammit?

I won't hide the fact that I have reported several individuals for such activities

That is you admitting to being a Rat.

cutting down gates is fine?

if said gate is blocking me from public lands, yup.

How can you condone my actions when you in fact are unaware of any of my actions.

You previously said "I respect a guy cutting the gate more then your 'key program". What more do I need to know?


is there an 'action' in there?

Yes having no gates is the ultimate dream

so why not work towards that aim?

gates are a reality. The sooner you and others realize that, the sooner you and others can move on to the important details.

the gates are the important detail

Why are gates where they are? To keep unauthortized people off that land.

who decides the 'authorized' part? This is the important part.

Why can't wheelers get the keys for those gates that they used to?

this question is fairly stupid. WHY ARE THERE GATES?

Because a select few continue with the/your "wheel when and where I want" attitude.

that attitude is called 'freedom'.
you might be unfamiliar with it but the rest of the province, you know that bit outside of the lower mainland, enjoys it without gates everywhere.

This attitude also includes cutting the locks and/or the gates. This activity has to stop or there will be no future fo this sport

this attitude has to increase to save the 'sport'.
stand up for our rights

select few just don't realize how much damage they are causing us.

I agree with this line, your collaboration with closures is going to kill our free lands.
you aquiese our rights away by submitting to the gates.

then you blame us for the fact that there are gates.
again, if there were no closures or gates how would one surreptitiously circumvent them?
it defies logic.

so you can stuff the accusations that you levy against 'fellow' wheelers where the sun dont shine.

the elitist key mentality turns my stomach.

will you be happy when the key program includes your front door key?
who do you ask for permission to go outside?

now here's some dumbass's (http://bb.bc4x4.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34624) no one needs.

the rest of the province, you know that bit outside of the lower mainland, enjoys it without gates everywhere. I've seen it with mine own eyes

[QUOTE]Originally posted by m j
That is you admitting to being a Rat.

Oh, a rat! I thought you meant a little fury rodent. :D
So what is wrong with reporting a crime?



if said gate is blocking me from public lands, yup.

This is an illegal act. So then you cut down the gate, us wheelers get blamed for it (yes, it happens all the time), another gate goes up. That's a nice circle you play in.



is there an 'action' in there?

Typing is an action. ;)



so why not work towards that aim?

WTF do you think I have been doing for the past 5 years or so.



the gates are the important detail

One of many pieces of the "important detail".



who decides the 'authorized' part? This is the important part.

Government, greenies, burocracy, etc.



this question is fairly stupid. WHY ARE THERE GATES?

Yes, that is a stupid question. The gates are there to keep unauthorized people out. Depending on where said gate is, the reasons may differ, but it is typically to keep stolen vehicles and trash from being dumped. So after the gate goes up, you say "**** this, that is my land. cut the gate down." I go the city or municipality and say "it's a shame that people have to ruin the area by dumping their trash. Let's work together so us responsible wheelers can still use this land". Do you see how the system works? No, cuz your out cutting that gate down again.


that attitude is called 'freedom'. you might be unfamiliar with it but the rest of the province, you know that bit outside of the lower mainland, enjoys it without gates everywhere.

Don't worry m j, I know how this sport is played all across our Province, Country and Continent.



this attitude has to increase to save the 'sport'.

Cutting down gates is going to save our sport. Sweet. I'm gonna bring that up at the next meeting and see how that goes over.


stand up for our rights.

Right back at'cha. You do realize that a small group of dedicated wheelers are fighting very hard for us, and after they get us 3 steps forward, your kind takes a flying leap and pulls us 10 steps backwards.



I agree with this line, your collaboration with closures is going to kill our free lands. you aquiese our rights away by submitting to the gates.

No submitting. It's called working with the population. You should try it sometime. ;)



then you blame us for the fact that there are gates.
again, if there were no closures or gates how would one surreptitiously circumvent them? it defies logic.

So just pretend the gates aren't there and do as I want? Nice logic. You may not be the reason the gates were errected in the first place, but you are part of the reason that they are still there.



so you can stuff the accusations that you levy against 'fellow' wheelers where the sun dont shine.

Why would I want to go into your world my so called "fellow wheeler".



the elitist key mentality turns my stomach.

Now you know how I feel about people that cut down gates.


Bottom line, we all want the same thing, access to our land. The problem is that some choose to be rebels, and other follow the channels of our democratic society. M j, do you ever come out to any meetings, events or anything to help our cause? Any support or help for U4WDA, 4WDABC, MRCBC or others? You just don't realize that you are hurting the cause more than you are helping it. If you are true to your actions, the only thing you are helping is yourself.

Originally posted by NOBS!
now here's some dumbass's (http://bb.bc4x4.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34624) no one needs.


Didn't his parents tell him to think before acting? :D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by m j
will you be happy when the key program includes your front door key?

When it locks you in your trailer and keeps you off the trails. :eek:

ya forgot, I do not respect locks.
I will be out wheelin
you will be stuck at home making a snot print on your window

Just to clarify, I don't like gates, but they are a reality and I am doing MY best to deal with the situation.

m j, you speak so highly of your side, so here is a question for you......... what is your solution to OUR gate problem?

Just to clarify, I don't like gates, but they are a reality and I am doing MY best to deal with the situation.

m j, you speak so highly of your side, so here is a question for you......... what is your solution to OUR gate problem?

well for one, guys like you could stop accepting them as 'reality' and start working to open OUR land to us.
this means a hard and fast refusal to respect the gates rather then a passive 'please let me have a key'.
the 'key' route is a sound defeat.

would you bargain wages with your employer by accepting a 99% rollback at the first meeting?
by your acceptance of the 'key' it sounds like you would do that if your wage stayed high but 99% of your fellow employees get the wage cut.
Would you be surprized if, after selling them out, they beat your ass in the parking lot?
Using that analogy do you think I should be applauding the 'key program' supporters?
The program effectively locks 99% of wheelers from the land.

you could stop throwing blame for the closures on other wheelers, as it simply isnt so.
I have never seen a credible source that wheeling was the reason for a closure.

The smoke n mirrors using litter and stolen car dumping as the justification for closures is piss poor at best.
litter will still occur, car theft will still occur whether the gates are blocking me from my recreation or not.
If you want to punish litterers and thieves simply catch them and prosecute them.
I am niether a litterer or thief so leave me the XXXX alone.
Using safety and liability as justification is even more ridiculous.
In Canada, our courts simply do not follow the US example of paying morons for their stupidity.

It seems a typical case of 'wanna be' responding to US problems that do not exist here in BC.

Gates are here, that is reality. Yes we can fight for their removal and preventing new ones from being errected. Again, what are the solutions? You have listed some good "talk", but you haven't told us what we can physically do? And remember, it has to be legal.

You may not be the reason the gates were errected in the first place, but you are part of the reason that they are still there.

how does removing/disabling a gate become the reason they are still there?

I can offer a real solution to the dumping problem.
Really it is very simple.
Stop letting Wastech (a US company up here to turn massive profits from your taxes) charge local citizens for dropping at the transfer station.
If it was free no one would have a reason to NOT USE IT.
Your taxes are already paying plenty to haul and mummify the trash in Cache Creek.
If you want to encourage this then simply make it easier then dumping in the bush.
Wastech in your city of Coquitlam has employees on site just about 24/7/365.

I have seen this cash cow create problems first hand.
A small interior town has begun charging to dump at the local dump.
It has been free to dump there for the last 40 years or so with locals bringing in a machine now and then to bury and dig a new pit.
now they have fences, gates, limited hours of access, a paid employee to collect fees, and dumping all over the bush.
This of course has resulted in spill over problems, as the surrounding communitys still have the old system in place and rather then pay people will travel to dump for free or to avoid the bankers hours that city employees like to work.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by m j
how does removing/disabling a gate become the reason they are still there?

Have you heard about Eagle Ridge. The key program was 99% good to go in the spring. The gate was cut down as the politics were flowing nicely, now the whole thing was put on the back burner, and a new beefier gate was put up.



I can offer a real solution to the dumping problem.

Most dumping is done by locals to each area. They are the majority of the problem.

Have you heard about Eagle Ridge. The key program was 99% good to go in the spring. The gate was cut down as the politics were flowing nicely, now the whole thing was put on the back burner, and a new beefier gate was put up.

How exactly was the 'Key program' good?
I dont have a key?
It would be good for you if you have a key, but bad for everyone else as they dont.

ok then,
let us pretend for a moment that what you say is true.
that a key was going to be profered.
How would this be affected by persons, outside of the negotiations, actions in gate removal?
This would be way beyond the control of those that are groveling for the Carrot (sorry I mean key).
The ones with the Carrot (sorry I mean key) are fully aware that the grovelers are most likely completely uninvolved and in no position to prevent the gate removal from occuring.
Has anyone officially stated this was the reason for the Carrot being withheld from the grovelers?
You want to paint it in that light here but I think it sounds like a great stretch to reach that conclusion.

How long after the 'Key' crap is implemented and accepted will there be substantial fees attached to this program?
I simply do not see any way that a key program could work.
those with out a key will still wanna wheel and will circumvent the gates.
That is a fact/reality.
why shouldnt they?
the key program does nothing to benefit them.
Why would they care if it is 'ruined'?

Most dumping is done by locals to each area. They are the majority of the problem.

no problem for us.
I really do not believe that this is the reason for gating.
dumpers just pile the crap at the gates.
so the gate is not a solution to that problem either.

Yo uare missing the point. Gates are where they are, right? Like I have said like 3 times, I don't like gates, but they are a reality (meaning they are there). This means we have to work with the system, not bitch and complain about it. You still haven't given me any credible options to work with here. Just bitching about "my right to that land". We need solutions!!! Bring them on!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by m j
no problem for us.
I really do not believe that this is the reason for gating.
dumpers just pile the crap at the gates.
so the gate is not a solution to that problem either.


Never said that garbage dumpers were the reason for gates, but they are part of the reason. Look at any FSR that has residence within a few km of it. There is usually trash near the trail head; gate or no gate. Locals!

Originally posted by m j
how does removing/disabling a gate become the reason they are still there?

I can offer a real solution to the dumping problem.
Really it is very simple.
Stop letting Wastech (a US company up here to turn massive profits from your taxes) charge local citizens for dropping at the transfer station.
If it was free no one would have a reason to NOT USE IT.
Your taxes are already paying plenty to haul and mummify the trash in Cache Creek.
If you want to encourage this then simply make it easier then dumping in the bush.
Wastech in your city of Coquitlam has employees on site just about 24/7/365.

I have seen this cash cow create problems first hand.
A small interior town has begun charging to dump at the local dump.
It has been free to dump there for the last 40 years or so with locals bringing in a machine now and then to bury and dig a new pit.
now they have fences, gates, limited hours of access, a paid employee to collect fees, and dumping all over the bush.
This of course has resulted in spill over problems, as the surrounding communitys still have the old system in place and rather then pay people will travel to dump for free or to avoid the bankers hours that city employees like to work.


free....would solve alot of problems everywhere especially in a fairy tale world. things change....and to expect them not to,is just as much a fairytale. Somewhere along the line the waste has to be managed. ie recycling,containment. Who's going to do that for free?

I've never experienced gates when wheeling until i moved to an urban center.I'd rather see the burned cars and dumped trash at the gate where it can be gathered easily for disposal vs. hunting through the bush and trails while on cleanups.

btw i don't have an answer to the problems and don't pretend to.

free dumping
it isnt really 'free'
your taxes are already paying for the service
the drop fee is merely a cash cow that costs us many problems
would you rather pay city workers to go and find the trash or have it delivered to the disposal site/transfer station

Never said that garbage dumpers were the reason for gates, but they are part of the reason.

Are you sure you didnt?

The gates are there to keep unauthorized people out. Depending on where said gate is, the reasons may differ, but it is typically to keep stolen vehicles and trash from being dumped.

cause it looks like you did.

Then I profered the solution.
Stop giving a US company (In the instance of most of the lower mainland) cash for creating an environment where dumping off site is the prefered option.

You still havent 'really'stated why the gates are there either.
You havent come up with a 'solution' either.
A 'key program' is not a solution not by a long shot.

You want solutions you need to find the problem.
Gates should not be a reality.
No you dont have to 'work with the system'.
You should remove 'the system'.
one of the trick's here is, 'authorized persons'.
We are not talking about a matter of National security here, we are talking about recreational use of public lands.
Exactly why do we need to 'authorize' every individual that wishes to roam in this "free" country?

You "working" to get a key is not helpful in the least.
So step off your high horse.
You are not going to make a million copies of said key to open the 'closed' areas.
It will be for you and your buddies.
Nothing noble or admirable about that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by m j
Are you sure you didnt? cause it looks like you did.

Yes, I said "...gates are there to keep unauthorized people out. Depending on where said gate is, the reasons may differ, but it is typically to keep stolen vehicles and trash from being dumped". To me this means that refuse being dumped is part of the problem. And believe it or not, there are a few gates that were put up for that purpose only.




You still havent 'really'stated why the gates are there either.

There are many reasons that gates are where they are. We have already argued that. Bottom line is that they are there.




You havent come up with a 'solution' either.

Cuz I don't have one, and I don't think there is "a solution".




A 'key program' is not a solution not by a long shot.

How do you get past a gate? With a key. That key is a solution to that gate (be it temporary of permanent)




You want solutions you need to find the problem.

No, that ones to easy. ;)




Gates should not be a reality.

But they are (unfortunately).




No you dont have to 'work with the system'. You should remove 'the system'.

If you hate stop signs do you rip em all down? No. Why not work with the system while working on "the solution" to remove it? Does legal system mean anything to you?




one of the trick's here is, 'authorized persons'.
We are not talking about a matter of National security here, we are talking about recreational use of public lands.
Exactly why do we need to 'authorize' every individual that wishes to roam in this "free" country?

The old "one bad apple" deal, that's why.




You "working" to get a key is not helpful in the least.

Maybe not for you, but for hundreds of others it sure is.




So step off your high horse.

Why, getting to cozy for ya? ;)




You are not going to make a million copies of said key to open the 'closed' areas. It will be for you and your buddies. Nothing noble or admirable about that.

A million keys? Where did you come up with that number? Realistically the people that want access to gates is probably in the hi hundreds, maybe even the low thousands. Just cuz you hate anybody having any control over any situation in your life doesn't mean that me and my buddies and the thousand or so other wheelers and outdoor type folks should have to suffer. Nothing like dragging the ship down with ya, eh Captain.

m j, how about you come out to a 4WDABC meeting and listen to others, and help us out?

you are a broken record.
you have brought absolutely nothing.
spell out how this 'key program' will help.
at best a few club members will get to wheel the odd trail for a short time.
then the program will be cancelled.

for the vast majority the trails will still be 'offlimits'
that to me is an utter failure.
if you see that as a victory then you are completely dillusional.

as the persons who you are giving up control of our lands to are not elected or accountable in any way I fail to see how this is democratic.
this is where the apathy comment I made plays in.

as you are obviously not capable of representing how a 'key program' is a good idea.
get someone who can to reply.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by m j
you are a broken record. you have brought absolutely nothing.

Funny how you say I have brought nothing. Are you reading? Shall I come over and speak and spell to you?




spell out how this 'key program' will help. at best a few club members will get to wheel the odd trail for a short time. then the program will be cancelled.

A key program will help the people that are responsible citizens gain access to their land. Those that aren't, will bitch and wine as they always do. True that not everybody will have access, but is that cuz they refuse to? With negative attitudes like yours, yes the program will be cancelled.



for the vast majority the trails will still be 'offlimits'
that to me is an utter failure. if you see that as a victory then you are completely dillusional.

Never ever said it would be a victory. It is a stepping stone.




as you are obviously not capable of representing how a 'key program' is a good idea. get someone who can to reply.

This getting old really fast, and I actually have paying work I could be doing instead of :banghead. So...........

I challenge you m j. Come out to some meetings. Help your fellow wheelres, don't fight against us. This does not mean I am right or you are right, it means that the more people we have, the better chance we have of getting some of our land back.

Other than that I am done. Maybe I will dig out my gate key for the Rolley Loop and go do some wheeling this weekend. :D

See you at the 4WDABC meeting on Tuesday m j.

See you at the 4WDABC meeting on Tuesday m j. I'm going to try make it tonight.the meetings have been really lame as of late...poor attendance.

It is a stepping stone.

to what? MORE GATES

A key program will help the people that are responsible citizens gain access to their land

see this one again: for the vast majority the trails will still be 'offlimits'