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modifying d50 ttb to be a solid axle

20K views 48 replies 13 participants last post by  stx4wheeler 
#1 · (Edited)
modifying d50 ttb parts to be used in a solid axle

First, I am new here, but I did wade through several pages of search results and didn't really find info on this. It was suggested that I ask about this here on my ongoing thread about D50 ttb in pirate4x4's ford section. My original thread over there is linked here clicky if you want to read the background on this. Anyhow, below is clip from my thread over there. apparantly someone has made some progress on a similar idea, and the guys on pirates said I could find more info here. Anyone have any pro's or cons or why it can't or wont work. Any feedback is appreciated. See below for a snip from my thread.

[snip] A little more info I have found today, the D50 TTB uses spicer 1350 ujoints with full circle external clips, where as a standard D60 joint is spicer 1480 with internal c clips. The body size is identicle between the two joints, but the spicer 1480 has 1.375 journals, and the 1350 joint has 1.18 journals. Makes the 1350 a bit weaker, but still a pretty tough joint. The main thing I find of interest, is that there is room in the knuckles for the spicer 1480. I am really tempted to see what it would cost for a machine shop to make me some square to round tube adapters, cut off the D50 innter knuckles with a few inches of the square tube, weld adapters in and build a front D60 with them. I have a plethora of rear D60's around, It might be a uber cheap way to come up with a front D60. What do you think, anyone tried this? There are shit loads of the D50 TTB stuff in the junkyards, and it is considered basically worthless, what do you think? [end snip]

Later,
jason
 
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#2 ·
It's not "common" around here for FSB'rs to try to build a straight D-50 from ground up. I think we have seen TTB oddities such as D44 TTB rears for sand racers and TTB basketball hoops and TTB grinder stands, etc.

As far as i can remember i do not recollect anyone grafting square tube to a D50 TTB chunk and welding on knuckles to make a straight axle.

Sounds interesting enough, wont it end up costing more time and money than say a ball joint 60?

Is this intended for crawling or mudding?
 
#3 ·
It was another guy trying to build a straight D50 out of the ttb center chunk. I am thinking just useing the knuckles and a retubed rear D60. My thoughts are haveing a sqaure to round adapter machined to put the TTB knucks on a regular D60 tube. It appears accoring to the measurements of my '79 D60 shaft yokes, and the neapco measurements of the 1350 joint that the cross is approximately the same width, this leads me to believe that the D60 1480 steering joints will fit in the TTB knucks. If it works, then I would be out the cost of Tube to retube a rear d60, machine work for inner axle seals, and machine work for the square to round knuckle adapters. I can get the machine work done for a fairly reasonable cost (I have machinests in the family:) ) and if it all comes together, i will try it with my stock spare D60 shafts. If it works right, I will just get alloy shafts for my buggy, and keep the spare stockers in the hybrid axle.

As for building a solid D50 out of a center chunk, I wouldn't think it would be incredibly difficult, but kind of pointless from a strength standpoint, you may as well run the D50 TTB.

This is going in a bronco I will be building this winter. If the hybrid deal looks like a no go, I will just swap the D50 TTB into the bronc. It is hopefully going to be a daily driver, tow rig, and light trail rig. If you look at the introduction thread where I introduced myself, you will see why I am building yet another rig...

Thanks for the response so far, I will continue my search, but let me know any input you may have :D

Thanks,
Jason
 
#5 ·
There are shit loads of the D50 TTB stuff in the junkyards, and it is considered basically worthless, what do you think?
Just to confrim you know teh differance between a Dana 44 and Dana 50 under an F250?

Also there are differances between Dana 50 TTB's so becarefull what parts you use...

I've seen Pictures of Dana 44's TTB's welded up, never seen a good one...
Not a bad idea to weld the knuckles on tube, but sure would be hard to get them plum.
 
#6 ·
Yes, i do know the difference between D44 and D50, the donor truck I have is defenitely the D50, it has 1 ton hubs, and the truck is an F350, door tag says 4500lb front axle. There are a few yards near me that have tons of fords, I was meerly making the suggestion that if this worked for me, it may be a cost effective way for others to build a d60. The D50 TTB is not nearly as available in the yards as a D44ttb, but they are still out there, and should be fairly cheap.

I was not aware that there are differences among the D50 TTB's, can you elaborate, or point me in the direction of more info?

I would be interested in pictures of the D44 ttb welded up if you can dig them up, I just want to see what part of the wheel people have already invented. As for getting the knucles plum, I would think with a properly thought out jig, they would come out pretty well.

Keep the info comming!

Thanks,
Jason
 
#7 ·
You can find a solid D44 for $100 almost anywhere, I just don't see how this could be a reasonable substitute
 
#8 ·
No offense, but did you read what I am trying to do, not just the title of the thread. I do not want to build a solid D50, I want to use the TTB D50 knucks to build a D60 out of a rear. It will use no D50 parts except the knucks when I am done. It will essensialy be a BJ D60 in the end.
 
#10 ·
Because if it works, it will be an somewhat inexpensive way to get a d60. A used D60 for $800-1200 dollars just insn't worth it to me. I am always on the lookiut for 1 tons to be parted out, but they are getting somewhat rare. All of the rock crawler guys are buying up the d60's left and right to resell. What should cost no more than $300-$500 more than a D44 has went through the roof, just due to demand. To add to it, none of the yards within 50 miles of me have any '70's stuff for a solid d44. Sure they are for sale on the boards for cheap prices every now and again, but why not use what I have if I can make it work. I understand that it will be a ton of work, but what have I got better to do through the winter? If I can put a 60 together for $300 (not counting the usual rebuild stuff you'd have to do on any junk yard axle anyhow) why not try? If it works, and is reasonable inexpensive, I guarantee other people will do it.

I used to run a front locked HP 44 in my CJ, I broke shafts nearly everytime out. How can you run a d44 in a truck that probably weighs 2k lbs more and make it survive w/o sinking $1000 in aftermarket shafts and joints? I realize people do it, but they don't last for me... It must be driving style. Anyhow, the bronco I am building is getting a built 460. I just dont feel comfortable with a d44, even with 33"-35" tire size and lots of horsepower.

later,
Jason
 
#11 ·
:popc1: Well, I don't really have any great info to contriubute, sorry, but I do plan on watching this thread hoping for some updates on your progress.
I believe that if research is done, material is gathered and plans are made correctly, anything can be built, and built very well. If you can find a cost effective way to build an axle just as strong as they ones selling for 1000+ dollars, why not try it? Like you said, what else is there to do during the winter? Im all for it :chili:

Wish I had something good to contribute though....:brownbag Good luck, and post pics :thumbup
 
#12 ·
I have seen narrowing jigs to narrow the Ford 9"for drag racers. Nothing more than a long strait rod and aluminium pucks to bolt in to the drop out with the rod to replace the bearings and keep it strait. Then you have to get caster and camber close but would have some adjustment at the ball joints.

What is the spline count and diameter on the outer axles and would they be that much stronger than D44 outers??? Is the spindle large enough to put in a 35 spline outer to go with the 1480 joint you list as a possibility???
 
#13 ·
I have seen the solid rod approach as well for determining if you get a houseing and tubes straight or not. It will almost defenitely be needed to get this right.

As for the spindles, hubs and whatnot, my research says the D50 stuff is identicle to stock D60 outers. I have not yet had it apart and in my hands to verify for sure. Stock D60 is 1.25 diameter outer shaft, 30 spline. I believe that stock D44 is 1.125, 19 spline. Updraged 35 spline outers should not be a problem either, as they fit the stock d60 outers. Inner shafts would be 1 3/16ths (at the neck down) and 35 spline. The dana 60 stubs may be a bit too long, as on a 78-79 hp60 the caliper brackets are between the knuckle and spindle, and on the TTB 50 knucks, the caliper brackets are cast in, I believe the difference will be about 1/4 to 3/8th inch though, so I should be able to cut down my stock d60 stubs and regroove them for snap ring and be all set.

I hope to be parting out the f350 that the D50 is comming out of tonight, and will have more measurements at my fingertips :D I will defenitly post pictures as the project progresses, both of the bronco and the front axle project.

Later,
Jason
 
#14 ·
I think your right about the outers! Interesting project! I'd look into the upgrade to 1480 joints and 1 ton shafts. If not now, an upgrade later. In my research, the stock D60 outers are not much stronger than 44's and they say when they grenade they can take out the spindle, hub, and locks:duh . Good Luck!
 
#15 ·
When completed it will run stock '79 hp D60 shafts, the steering joints are already 1480 series joints. The stubs however are upgradeable to 35 spline. I have not yet broken a stock shaft in my buggy with 42's and a f.i. 460, so they must be a bit stonger :)

Later,
Jason
 
#18 ·
I didn't get my donor truck parted out last night, as the loader had a flat tire when I went to tear into it. After parting out vehichles with a loader, it is hard to go back to an engine hoist, 8 friends and a lot of beer method... Anyhow, I did get some good measurements of stuff today, and it all looks very promising. I cannot wait to get the SOB apart and back to my shop so I can start working on this. The great thing is, the truck I bought for a parts rig has a shelled D60 rear, so I am going to hack that one up since it is fubar already. I am really looking forward to trying this out. I will keep you guys posted. It can be up to three weeks between my days off work though, so bare with me if I dissapear for a while. I am deffenitely going to find out if this can be done or not, and for a reasonable price.

Later,
Jason
 
#20 ·
I am not sure I understand the question? Do you mean use a donor rear that has a larger diameter tube stock, like a d70 or 14blt? I am not really familiar with any of the D70 stuff, but the way it looks with the d50 knuckles, is I may be able to do it w/o any sort of adapter, just by boxing the square tube down to the round, the trick there would be getting everything plumb and square as you mentioned before, but I think it can be done. If a D70 tube is much larger diameter than a d60, it may not fit width wise into the d50 square tubing. It would probably have to be milled flat where the square tube would sleeve it. I am not sure that it would be worth the additional ring gear/pumpkin size just for the gear strength since I would still use d60 shafts. If I missunderstood, tell me what you are thinking.

Thanks,
Jason
 
#22 ·
Wouldn't that just create a low pinion D60? Why not just buy some D60 knuckles so you can swap them over to a d60 front when/if you find one? Also, wouldn't the gears be turning in the wrong direction if you used a rear D60 center in the front?
 
#23 ·
Yes it will be low pinion, like all of the dodge and chebby d60s.

Why buy knucks if I can make what I have work, almost the same amount of work to turn a rear into a front, regardless of whay knucks you use, and after market knuckles for a D60 (since they are no longer a spicer production part) will cost as high as $1200 a set. Fawk that.

In a Low Pinion front application, the gears are driven on the coast side instead of the drive side. The do turn backwards, but it is the right direction since the front axle is turned 180* from what it would have been in the rear. Low pinion gearsets are considered to be approximately 30% weaker when used in a front drive application. They have however been used in front applications off and on for pretty much the entire history of 4 wheel drive, in fact, my guess is that unless you have a junkyard specializing in ford, you will find more low pinon solid fronts in it than HP stuff. Anyhow, I am not really concerned with ring and pinion strength as much as steering axle shaft strength, and regardless if it is low pinion, it will still be much stronger than a high pinion D44.

Mr.N, it appears that my donor truck has a D70 rear, so that will probably be what I work with since the R&P in the rear are f-ed up. I am parting the rig out in the rain today, lucky me :D

Later,
Jason
 
#25 ·
Ahh, you got me there, no proof, all anecdotal. It is just one of those things that you hear all of your life and eventualy assume it is true. Anyhow, I did say "considerd to be" I personaly couldn't give a shit either way, I have always been of the opinion that if I can do it myself or make it myself, it is what I am going to run until it lets me down. :D

Well I am off to finish up parting out rigs, with any luck I can have this front end project off the ground soon.

Later,
Jason
 
#26 ·
Well, here we go... I started today. I have the D50 TTB apart and verified that the D60 shafts do indeed fit inside...



It is pretty close to the inner knuckle, but I have about .25".



clearance between the lower BJ and the yoke, about .25"



Clearance between the upper BJ and yoke, about .75"



Dana 50 shaft top, D60 shaft bottom. It is hard to tell in the picture, but the D60 stub is about 3/8" longer as I suspected, this is due to the D50 haveing cast caliper mounts, and the D60 has a removeable plate caliper mount. I will probably just cut them down as the splin length is the same. If I end up taking the snap ring grove, I will have it remachined into the shaft...

I didn't take a picture, but the ID of the TTB tube, measured with calipers is 3.6x 3.5. This is almost going to be a perfect fit to sleeve the D70 rear tube I am useing for a donor pig.

More pics later as I progress.

Later,
Jason
 
#28 ·
Yeah, bored :toothless: I work about 60 hours a week at my full time job, I fabricate Jeep bumpers for sale on ebay about 20-30 hours a week, and in my spare time, I build crazy shit for myself!!!!

Later,
Jason
 
#29 ·
bigblockbuggy said:
I didn't take a picture, but the ID of the TTB tube, measured with calipers is 3.6x 3.5. This is almost going to be a perfect fit to sleeve the D70 rear tube I am useing for a donor pig.

More pics later as I progress.

Later,
Jason
Yeah, Dana 70 :toothless


Get me the BOM from the 50 and Your year on the 60 and I'll get you the axle shaft info...
 
#30 ·
Yeah, Dana 70 :toothless
Not a D70 after all, it s a damn D61!!! I pulled the shafts and thought they looked small, started cleaning up the webbing and found a ginormous 61 cast in... The axle has the big spindle and hubs, and is also sporting far more center chunk webbing than I have previously seen, not to mention the Huge frigging tubes, but alas it is not a D70. I think I am still going to use it though, as I am not looking for really low gearing since the bronc will get a built BB and ZF, the tube is close to exactly the right size for my ideas and it has a trashlock in it already. Provided I can get 35 spline trash lock side gears and a semi descent ratio (probably 3.73:1) I will just run it, it has plenty of beef for what I have in mind.

On a side note, MR.N, do you happen to know what the OD on a stock D60 inner seal is, or do you know where I can look the info up? I am hopping my tube id is big enough to put a slug in to put the inner seals in. My tube ID where I cut the spindle off is 2.84" . OD of the tube w/ scale and rust was about 3.6", making it a 3/8" wall tube, plenty-o-beef

Later,
Jason
 
#32 ·
Made a little more progress today, there have been a few snag, but this is going to work. Here are some more pictures...



I had to cut the knuckle for a little bit more joint clearance, once I had the knuckle on the tube, and the d60 shaft in it, it bound on the inner knuckle, and was going to be bad when turning...



So I cut it for clearance, and then plated it with 3/8th inch steel to get the strength I lost back.



New modified plated knuckle on the diff and axle shaft in place...



Front close up view, I put the rolled edge back on the inner knuckle, again for strength. Had to grind the 3/8ths a bit on the bottom because of contact w/ the outer knuckle. I should not have plated it so far forward...



Back close up view, I have to take it apart again and grind a little bit of the inner knucles lower half of the opening. The factory roled edge was at an angle, and my replacement piece was not. The reason it was at an angle... The shaft yoke binds when turned all of the way right.

All in all it has not been a bad project so far. I have had the damn knuckle on and off about 50 times, I am getting tired of swinging the sledge hammer :toothless:

Later,
Jason
 
#34 ·
Made a little more progress today. Got the drivers knuckle properly clearanced, and is now welded on. I may have to take it apart and grind down the lower ball joint stud just a little. It clears the yokes on the shafts, but it is so close, I am not sure I am real comfortable with it. Anyhow, here are the pics.



I made a collar for the tube to give me a better and more uniform weld area...



It is also plug welded on all 4 sides...



And the clearance between the joint and knuckle now after grinding some more, and some more again, and oh, it finally clears!

Now I just have to take what I learned on this side, and do the same on the other, any luck and I will be done in a week or two.

Later,
Jason
 
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