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'95 Bronco stopped starting

5K views 48 replies 9 participants last post by  Surt 
#1 ·
I got called into work at 0130 on this last Saturday morning, two of my soldiers got stopped at the gate for suspected driving under the influence. It was about 34 degrees and a damn skating rink all over base. To top everything off, after retrieving their vehicles from the front gate and getting ready to start the hours of paperwork on my Saturday/6th day of work, I went to start my '95 Bronco, my pride and joy project, and I just get a dull "click" from under the hood, and the brake light, ABS and check engine light light up, everything else switches off like it usually does, it just won't turn over. Just that single dull click. I try a few more times whenever I get a break, and it does it a few more times, but pretty much starts fine the rest of the day.

I'm not too deep into mechanics, but this Bronco is my attempt to do most everything myself. With my research around here the way I see it, I need to try to jump it first. If it starts up no problem with a jump a few times, I need to take the battery back in (it's only 4 months old, and the terminals were also replaced at this time) and get it tested/swapped out. If it still won't start, I need to tap the starter with a rubber mallet and see if it's not binding or going bad and in need of replacement.

Am I on the right track here? What's a recommended replacement if it turns out to be the starter? I've already looked it up here: http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130023 and this job seems totally easy enough to do in my driveway where it currently is.
 
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#2 ·
I would pull the battery and get it charged then tested. If it tests good, have the alternator tested (I prefer to test it in the vehicle at a shop rather than pulling it and letting one of the counter monkies at the parts store do it).
If it passes all these tests, check all cables and grounds.

You mentioned that you had replaced the terminals,


if these are the ones you used, toss 'em and buy/build new cables. Check RJM
http://www.rjminjectiontech.com/collections/battery-cable-parts
 
#5 ·
I agree that checking the solenoid would be smart. That has always been
my first stop in starting problems, and it is usually the cheapest too.
My first and cheapest is to get the voltmeter out! LOL :)

Here's a post from another thread...

=============================================

I don't usually look at these "no start" threads anymore because the OP
won't use a voltmeter to find the trouble. At best he'll swap parts. :/

-----------------------------------------------------

Here's my way of doing it... YMMV

1) It's messing up?
Don't mess with any wires etc get the analog meter out first-thing... !
That's so you won't "clear-up the trouble on yourself" and then won't know
what needs fixing. BTDT and BTSeenThat both. :/ Do yourself a favor and
let the voltmeter do its job before you go monkeying with it. ;)

2) Read the battery voltage by digging the voltmeter's leads into the
battery's terminals (not the clamps;). Should read ~12 volts.

3) Have a helper try to start the vehicle. I've done this by myself, so don't
tell me you can't too. ;) But a helper's cool, you can teach the helper how
to troubleshoot a starting/charging system while you're at it. :)

4) Watch to see how far-down the needle goes...
Less than 10 volts and sounds sluggish or don't turn over? --> 4a
Don't move really, stays at ~12 volts and don't turn over? --> 4b
Drops to ~11 volts and starter sounds good and engine starts fine? --> 5

5) After it starts, does the voltage stay at ~12 volts or rise to ~13 volts?
If it just sits there at the original voltage then you got charging circuit
trouble could be the alternator or the voltage regulator or both.
Alternators can be fixed, BTW. ;)

The trick is to first try it on a vehicle that's working fine to see it in action.

An analog voltmeter is all you need.

4a) Typically you've got a good connection through the whole starter's
circuit and got a low or weak battery.
How old is the battery?
A brand-new battery can be bad, BTDT.

4b) Typically you got an "open circuit" (as opposed to a "short circuit")
and the analog meter will find it for you if you-let-it-lead-you to it.
In steps, move the leads closer to the "load" (the starter) until you get
virtually-zero-volts (when the helper tries to start the engine). Use little
bitty steps as you narrow in on -exactly- where the open-circuit-is. ;)

-----------------------------------------------------

Alvin in AZ

=============================================

So.
You gonna get a voltmeter and give it a try or what? ;)

Butthead in AZ
ps- The starter relay on the fender apron is a solenoid actuated -relay-.
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/starterRelay.jpg <---starter relay
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/starterDelco.jpg <---a starter with a solenoid on the side of it invented by Delco
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/starters351w.jpg <--two Ford-invention starters "movable pole shoe"
^Cheap and reliable those! :)
 
#6 ·
I've tried jumping, but with no discernible difference. Still the single dull click.

I picked up a digital multimeter today, and will poke around tomorrow and do some checks on where power is or isn't coming from, and where it is or isn't going.

Thanks for all the input, and yes Alvin, I was too ready to just start dropping in new parts. Thanks for the reality check.
 
#7 ·
I've tried jumping, but with no discernible difference. Still the single dull click.
I picked up a digital multimeter today, and will poke around tomorrow and do
some checks on where power is or isn't coming from, and where it is or isn't
going.
Thanks for all the input, and yes Alvin, I was too ready to just start dropping
in new parts. Thanks for the reality check.
Digital meter? :/ Oh no! ;)
Try it out on a vehicle that's working-right and see what you get, ok? :)

Thanks for that and good luck on your testing. :)

BTW, there's been a few times when guys and gals have had their "good
looking" jumper cables hooked up and ready for a jump when Butthead
shows up... and it didn't work. Grabbed my homemade-ones out and they
-worked-. No kidding.

--------------------------

My son was helping clean up an old friend's place and there were two sets
of jumper cables I claimed dibs on the better looking set, a few days later
they were needed, his ugly-cheap ones worked and my fancy ones were
dead. LOL :) We were all laughing because I'd made a big deal out of "my
pretty ones might be dead and his might be the good-ones". :)
Sure enough was.

A meter could tell you which one is good and -where- the dead ones are
"open".

Electricity is just funny like that, the ugly connection is "making" and the
good-clean-looking one could be "open".
^BTSeenT a jillion times.

Cool huh? :)

Alvin in AZ
ps- What a guy can do, is charge the battery. Be careful and do it right.
Have the two connected and the one vehicle running. With the booster
cable never-losing-contact, pull one battery clamp loose from the good
battery and let it charge the "dead" battery for a while. That way, the
running vehicle's voltage regulator "sees" a low battery and will charge
like it means it. ;) Had to do that several times when the battery was
just plain ol' -too- dead {to start the truck}. Did that to signal batteries
in the middle of the night when the power'd been off too long.
 
#8 ·
Tested the battery out, both my Sierra and Bronco both read at 12.54 Volts.

I crawled underneath the Bronco, in my slick, snow-covered driveway, and take another look at the stater. Lo and behold:



Looks to be the top half of the starter shield, no? I assume the lower half broke off and is gonezo on me. I don't have any buddies, and the wife just left me, so I have no way to see if full voltage is making it to the starter when I turn the key.

Lord only knows how long that shield has been missing, you figure that all the road crud and crap, road de-icer and salt has corroded and broken the starter over time?
 
#9 ·
Anything that came across as melodrama was unintentional hyperbole. I have no plans to sit in the Bronco once I get it running again and listen to "Freebird" with one of my 1911s in my lap.

The leads on my voltmeter were too short, and the sun sets at around 1500 up here. Between that, and additional matters requiring my attention last night, I was disinclined to find a way to test voltage to the starter on my own. I do have friends coming over tonight and I'll get that part figured out then.

Thanks for the info.
 
#10 ·
...one of my 1911s...
Cool, you reload for 45acp? :)

The leads on my voltmeter were too short...
...to find a way to test voltage to the starter on my own.
...have friends coming over tonight and I'll get that part figured out then.
Sounds like a good plan to me, beats the hell out of the
"gambling method of electrical troubleshooting" IMO. ;)

-----------------------------------------------------

Here's Alvin's way to do it...

1) It's messing up?
Don't mess with any wires etc get the analog meter out first-thing... !
That's so you won't "clear-up the trouble on yourself" and then won't know
what needs fixing. BTDT and BTSeenThat both. :/ Do yourself a favor and
let the voltmeter do its job before you go monkeying with it. ;)

2) Read the battery voltage by digging the voltmeter's leads into the
battery's terminals (not the clamps;). Should read ~12 volts.

3) Have a helper try to start the vehicle. I've done this by myself, so don't
tell me you can't too. ;) But a helper's cool, you can teach the helper how
to troubleshoot a starting/charging system while you're at it. :)

4) Watch to see how far-down the needle goes...
Less that 10 volts and sounds sluggish or don't turn over? --> 4a
Don't move really, stays at ~12 volts and don't turn over? --> 4b
Drops to ~11 volts and starter sounds good and engine starts fine? --> 5

5) After it starts, does the voltage stay at ~12 volts or rise to ~13 volts?
If it just sits there at the original voltage then you got charging circuit
trouble could be the alternator or the voltage regulator or both.
Alternators can be fixed, BTW. ;)

The trick is to first try it on a vehicle that's working fine to see it in action.

An analog voltmeter is all you need.

4a) Typically you've got a good connection through the whole starter's
circuit and got a low or weak battery.
How old is the battery?
A brand-new battery can be bad, BTDT.

4b) Typically you got an "open circuit" (as opposed to a "short circuit")
and the analog meter will find it for you if you-let-it-lead-you to it.
In steps, move the leads closer to the "load" (the starter) until you get
virtually-zero-volts (when the helper tries to start the engine). Use little
bitty steps as you narrow in on -exactly- where the open-circuit-is. ;)

-----------------------------------------------------

Alvin in AZ
 
#11 ·
Haha, yes, I reload .45 ACP. I also converted one to .460 Rowland which I also reload for. The feeling of a 230 gn. FMJ leaving at 1100 FPS with recoil softer than your average 850 FPS load from a non-modified gun is like flying a rocket ship made of biceps.

So, I did some diag work. We had a bit of a cold snap, but the battery is still putting out 12.2 volts cold. When cranked it drops down to 11.3 volts. The starter is receiving 9.3V when cranked. The dickens of it all: when I was testing the starter, the truck started for the first time since the day it started going haywire on me.

Did I just jump my starter? Is that what happened?
 
#13 ·
Tried 'er ou again after sitting in the garage again for a few hours. Started right up, turned I off, now it won't start up at all. Just the dull, single "click" again.
 
#16 ·
Well here a few ideas you can try.
1.Check the wire harness from your batt to your starter.. make sure its good.. this can be done yourself. I've pulled mine just to make sure the ends weren't dead or rusted out.

2. Pull your starter and have it tested at an auto parts store along with your battery. Volts are one thing but what is important is cranking amps. Your batt could be dead, or have a dead cell. I had a batt that read 12.v but its amps was 54.. I dont know the correct number but I believe its 500 and above It takes a ton of amps to turn over the car

3. if you havent already jump your solenoid with a screwdriver ..this will involve having someone in the car with the key in the start position.

As always start isolating things by themselves to see if they function properly.

I've worked on mine a lot by myself you just have to find a way.
 
#17 ·
I had the leads on the washer ring looking hookups on the two screws. The ground was on the lower ring, the positive on the upper. B to M on this diagram, the quickest I could find one resembling the one on mine.

...crap, I screwed that up, didn't I?

 
#42 ·
I had the leads on the washer ring looking hookups on the two screws.
The ground was on the lower ring, the positive on the upper. B to M on
this diagram, the quickest I could find one resembling the one on mine.
You got a Delco type starter? :/

Those things have mechanical parts inside that all have to work just
right for the sorry sucker to work. :/

The solenoid itself has two circuits/coils inside it, a "pick-up circuit" and
a "hold circuit". The hold circuit only really reduces the current on the
switch or relay operating it and doesn't have the current/power to push
the Bendix/starter drive into place. When the starter drive gets shoved
into place (at the same time) there's a heavy contact that provides high
current to operate the starter.

I had one one time that I tried everything (even if it was wrong) to get
it to work. Told a bunch of air-cooled VW guys about it and found out
"some of them were just that way".

Alvin in AZ
 
#19 · (Edited)
Had similar issue, after new solenoid and battery, found that positive post in starter was loose internally. New starter and all is grand, optima batteries rock! It drove me crazy for a couple months....start....not start......turnover normal.....cranking very slow.....over and over...different reactions each time.
 
#21 ·
Man, I can't open this forum from my .mil computer. It's a conspiracy, I say!

All voltage measurements provided regarding the starter, solenoid, and relay are when cranking attempts are made. The click comes from the starter itself, and when I am measuring voltage I have the movement conducted through the probes and into my arms, it is that sturdy of a noise.

I put the probe leads on several locations on the starter body to attempt a reading, but it wa consistently 0 even when attempting to crank. I will post a picture of my battery area soon, but I am havin to operate via iPhone for the rest of the day. My battery terminals are the horrible type posted earlier by another member in the thread.

I will also spend some time education myself further in electrical systems. Thanks again for the assists. This is quite the learning experience.
 
#22 ·
 
#24 ·
Cool picture. :)

While trying to start it, dig the meter's probes into the cables just behind
those sorry steel plates on those crappy temporary battery cable clamps. LOL :)

If the voltage is lower than when the probes are on the battery's posts,
then you got bad connection/s right there. Try putting one lead/probe on
one battery post and there just behind the steel plate on the same side. :)

-try starting it and see if you get a "voltage drop" across there.

That's called a "voltage drop" reading zero or otherwise.

See? It should read -zero-. :)

So if you get a voltage reading <-that's a "loss of voltage" to the system
...the same one you're wanting to get voltage to. ;) ...try the other side.

---------------------

That's just one way to do it, another is to have one lead on the positive
battery post and dig the other lead into the opposite battery post's cable.

Then the other way. I've seen it where -both- those sorry little clamps were
bad enough so the starter wasn't fed enough current to turn the engine over.

...it was funny, had guys coming out of the wood work to tell the gal she
"needed this and she needed that" after the jump didn't work. Some of
those things were expensive too. LOL :)

All she needed was those two cable connections cleaned.

Found 'em both with a meter before cleaning either. ;)
Showed her how to test for it and showed her how both were bad.

She asked me if I was married or had a "novia" (girlfriend). LOL :)

Alvin in AZ
 
#23 ·
:twak

I know what I'm doing when I get off work tomorrow morning, then.
 
#25 ·
I'll make sure to try that out. Hell, if this winds up being the issue I'm near ready to start handing out sexual favors myself.
 
#28 ·
New terminals, gold plated, installed. Had the battery tested and charged, A-OK and within the 850-1000 CCA range it's rted for, and now putting out 12.74V. Installed a new starter relay.

Still won't start. Tried jumping the starter relay with a screwdriver, just that solitary click from the starter. It's mocking me.

12.73V from the new relay to the + terminal. 12.74V from the engine block to the + terminal.

Should I just take the plunge at this rate and throw a new starter in?
 
#29 ·
Should I just take the plunge at this rate and throw a new starter in?
If the starter is getting full voltage (~11v) while trying to crank, then it's
the starter or the engine's locked up. ;)

Good for you testing the battery, I didn't agree with Steve on that.

"when you don't know what's wrong, make sure everything is right :)"
-Jack Duncan Tucson Signal Maintainer <--I've seen it work for him! LOL

Something as basic as the battery needs to be checked, for-sure-like. ;)

Now that you've done all that, what's the voltage on the starter while
it's cranking? ...oh crap. ...you got a digital meter huh? :/

Alvin in AZ
 
#30 ·
M to starter housing again for the voltage reading? Or just read every terminal to terminal to housing reading and post my results?
 
#31 ·
Had a buddy come out and crank on my command. Here's the findings as follows:

Baseline POS terminal to engine block: 12.4V, 11.7 when cranking

Starter Relay B to (-) terminal: 12.01V, 11.7 when cranking
Starter Relay S to (-) terminal: 12V when cranking
Starter Relay B to M: 12V when cranking

Starter B to S: 12.01V constant
Starter B to braided metal from M: 12V constant, multimeter probe sparked when cranked, but I think I slipped and accidentally shorted it to the exhaust.
Starter B to starter body housing: 12V constant, 11.7 when cranked.

Still no go on the starting....
 
#35 ·
Had a buddy come out and crank on my command.
Here's the findings as follows:

Baseline POS terminal to engine block: 12.4V, 11.7 when cranking

Starter Relay B to (-) terminal: 12.01V, 11.7 when cranking
Starter Relay S to (-) terminal: 12V when cranking
Starter Relay B to M: 12V when cranking
So, it's fine cranking now?

Starter B to S: 12.01V constant
Starter B to braided metal from M: 12V constant, multimeter probe sparked
when cranked, but I think I slipped and accidentally shorted it to the exhaust.

Starter B to starter body housing: 12V constant, 11.7 when cranked.

Still no go on the starting....
This sounds like a whole different problem that what -I- thought it was. :/
Sorry about that. :/

Alvin in AZ
 
#32 ·
I dunno if this will help, buuuuut...:toothless

My Bronco would not start Saturday so, I put it on the trickle charger overnight. Sunday it still wouldn't start. I traced it down to the braided wire came off the metal tab it was soldered to so I soldered it back on and the truck fired right up.
This probably isn't your issue since you had the starter tested and it works.

I was telling a coworker about it and he told me he had to replace the cable eventhough the ends were good, it was corroded midway down the cable. I've had this happen before where the cable gets a nick or a slice in it and corrodes the wires inside. Check for bulges in the cable.

If your battery is not the correct CCA for your engine, it will have problems in extreme cold weather. Right now my truck has a hard time turning over as it's a -10 today with the wind chill. I had a BMW that grew up in Texas (I bought it with 215k miles on it. And it would not start unless I had it in the garage with a heatlamp under it. There probably a better mechanical explanation for it, but that's just the way that vehicle was. I had no problems with it, till it got below 20deg.

Just throwing these out there.
 
#36 ·
Damn, there I go with the wrong terminology again. I mean when I turn the key, or a buddy turns the key, and the starter and relay both go "click."
 
#37 ·
Have you put your meter to a good working vehicle to learn how it's
supposta act? :)


Damn, there I go with the wrong terminology again. I mean when I turn the
key, or a buddy turns the key, and the starter and relay both go "click."
Whew ok so, what's the voltage on-the-starter while it's doing that? :)

Can that be read with a modern digital meter? I remember when they
first came out, (mid 80's) they really sucked hard while trying to read
a voltage that had the least bit of fluctuation in it. :/

"analog meters for troubleshooting"

"...
4) Watch to see how far-down the needle goes...
Less than 10 volts and sounds sluggish or don't turn over? --> 4a
Don't move really, stays at ~12 volts and don't turn over? --> 4b

An analog voltmeter is all you need. ;)

4a) Typically you've got a good connection through the whole starter's
circuit and got a low or weak battery.

4b) Typically you got an "open circuit" (as opposed to a "short circuit")
and the analog meter will find it for you if you-let-it-lead-you to it.
In steps, move the leads closer to the "load" (the starter) until you get
virtually-zero-volts (when the helper tries to start the engine). Use little
bitty steps as you narrow in on -exactly- where the open-circuit-is. ;)
..."

Those directions prob'ly need to be written better! :/

Anyway, if the starter etc just click and the voltage doesn't go-down
you've got an open circuit or at least not enough current going thru it.

You had the starter tested?

---------------------------------

Me and others have found that even the Snap-On battery tester don't
work so good, it can say it's good and send you packing with a bad
friggin' battery. BTDT and certain guys that run those things for a living
say the same exact thing. Maybe it ain't the equipment maybe it's the
fact a battery doesn't die a slow-smooth death? What they do at the
end is a- "good one minute, dead the next" action.

Guys say to jam a screwdriver down between the plates to "all the way
f%k it up" only-then take the bad battery in for warranty so you won't
be denied and have to take it -back- same day or two weeks later.

Got the "screwdriver method" from guys that run the battery testers. LOL :)

Alvin in AZ
 
#38 ·
I'm just confused. If there's 12 volts making it to the starter, and all the terminals as appropriate, then how do I find this "open circuit"? I've checked out all the cables, they all read the 12 volts until they make it to the starter. I even pulled off and cleaned the engine ground cable and all metal-on-metal contact therin. The voltmeter isn't showing any more than a .17V loss on the way to the starter, a definite improvement since I started, but she still won't do more than click.
When the battery got tested, they said it was putting out 750 CCA before they took the 90 minutes to top it off.

Also, yes, the starter supposedly tested out fine, but I've had a few mechanically inclined friends look at it and the wiring, and their general consensus all seems to be that I should put a new starter in.
 
#39 ·
So, at the risk of confusing this entire thing, here is what I find odd. The truck started out of the blue for him one day (when he was testing the starter with his meter) then wouldnt start anymore. Seems like a cable/connection issue to me.

Is what I would do personally is I would run a jumper cable from the positive of the battery and touch it to the positive terminal on the starter and see if that causes the motor to turn over (key will need be on the "on" position). If it does, you eliminate the starter as the cause, and know its between the starter and the battery. If you get the click but the engine doenst turn over, its most likely the starter. You can try tapping it with a hammer and see if it then turns over.

If it does turn over with just the jumper (no hammer) start working your way back on the system until you find the weak link (try jumping it at the relay, then disconnect the terminal and hook the jumper straight to the oem positive cable, you will need somone to turn the key for that one). If it turns over all the way back, it was the terminals. If it fails to turn over anywhere along the way, you know there is a bad connection at that point. If it fails all the way back, try either swapping a different battery in or using another car and run the jumper from the car to the starter and see if that causes it to turn over. If so, its the battery.

These threads come up on a regular basis and more times than not, its a terminal or cable related issue. Check all of your cables closely including the grounds off of the negative side of the battery.

2 cents worth...
 
#43 ·
Ok, but I want to so things the right way as much as my limited free time can afford. I've learned so much about autos in the past week it's amazing, much less from when I bought this poor bronco and decided I would do as much work as possible myself.

Again, I appreciate all the input, ideas, and knowledge, even if Steve now realizes I have a reading comprehension problem. I have a Burnzomatic soldering torch somewhere, and I pledge on my firstborn I will turn my fancy gold plates terminals into a mirror ornament and solder on some real man's terminals.
 
#44 ·
Ok, but I want to so things the right way as much as my limited free time
can afford. I've learned so much about autos in the past week it's amazing,
much less from when I bought this poor bronco and decided I would do as
much work as possible myself.

Again, I appreciate all the input, ideas, and knowledge, even if Steve now
realizes I have a reading comprehension problem. I have a Burnzomatic
soldering torch somewhere, and I pledge on my firstborn I will turn my fancy
gold plates terminals into a mirror ornament and solder on some real man's
terminals.
With an attitude like that there ain't anything you can't do. :)

Alvin in AZ
 
#45 ·
ok so I'm not a electrition but I have read through this entire post and have heard it mentioned, but not really checked (or I missed it) the "solinoid" or "relay" on the fire wall above the pass. tire has long been known for shorting out internally or staying in the closed position. Has he tried to jump it with a screwdiver? or for $8.00 replace it? If it were me I think I might give it a shot. Good Luck !! Stay warm !!
 
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