high volume oil pump with thinner oil?

[Kingfish999]

i know alot of you say that the high volume oil pump isnt needed or is too much pressure. i was wondering if instead of stock 10w-30 if that you could use thinner oil. ill probably do standard but jsut a thought.

also a side question, when brands say .001 over/undersize bearings, are they tighter or looser that standard? they seem to mix up the words under and oversize when it comes to bearings. was thinking if i ran the .001 looser bearings with high volume pump it might be better for higher rpm running i tend to drive

[351w500]

Please get on melling.com and read what a high volume oil pump does and doesn't do....please post it.

[CrazyBRONCOguy]

The bearings should be based on the crank, you should only have .001 thicker then stock bearings. They are meant to take up slack from a worn crank, or a machined crank but they usually take off more then .001. So to answer your question they are slightly thicker then standard bearings.

on the HV pump I would stick with a standard one. The HV pumps are bigger and you have to clearance the oil pan to make it fit. This may cuase problems on a ttb ford as the pan is already close to the crossmember it is why the engine i just rebuilt got a standard volume pump

[Kingfish999]

Originally Posted by CrazyBRONCOguy

The bearings should be based on the crank, you should only have .001 thicker then stock bearings. They are meant to take up slack from a worn crank, or a machined crank but they usually take off more then .001. So to answer your question they are slightly thicker then standard bearings.

on the HV pump I would stick with a standard one. The HV pumps are bigger and you have to clearance the oil pan to make it fit. This may cuase problems on a ttb ford as the pan is already close to the crossmember it is why the engine i just rebuilt got a standard volume pump

thats what i thought but i remeber seeing someplaces of for looser clearance bearings for higher RPM engines. ya i know the clearance problems of HV pumps, i even have a spare pan incase tho.

Originally Posted by 351w500

Please get on melling.com and read what a high volume oil pump does and doesn't do....please post it.

not really seeing anything on there site for that question other than it mentions adding 25% more oil flow.


i decided ill jsut get a master rebuild kit and new crank which will inclued a stander pump. its alot cheaper than piecing parts together but still cant afford it quite yet. my oil pressure is gone basicly. drivnig 1200rpm doing bout 45mph and needle still bounces so basicly im driving with overdrive off to help raise the rpm some. so i ordered a big oil cooler and relocation kit thinking the cooler oil might help a few more weeks till i can afford it

[351w500]

I know, I looked on their site and i didnt see it either. It was an article about what a high volume oil pumd actually does and it dispelled the myths surrounding the HV pumps.

[CrazyBRONCOguy]

the stock oil pressure gauge I would not really trust a lot. Its basically an idot light unless you have converted it to read accurately. I would put a mechanical gauge with numbers in and see where its at. It could be your sending unit for the stock gauge (idiot light) too. Its suppose to just read when its above 5psi, at least I think that is what I remember being right

[Kingfish999]

yes i know its jsut an idiot light. but less than 7psi (i htink thats what it is) is not enough for me and its getting worse FAST. i am VERY hard on my engine so i would rather rebuild it anyways. i have a digital guage ready to put in when my oil cooler comes in.

the reason i asked this is cause after googling osme, i found people saying almost 80psi oil on startup after rebuild and HV pump. one of the main reasons we use thick oil in our trucks is oil pressure tends to drop with age. so if you have that much oil pressure, why not use thinner oil and id one day the engine starts wearing again you jsut go to thick oil again

[ProBronco]

Oil pressure means nothing at all...........

The rule has been 10 psi for every 1000 rpm's, any more then that it costs HP.

Your crank runs a film of oil, So CLEAN oil is way more important then pressure

[351w500]

That film of oil needs to constantly be replaced as it is being thrown off of the bearings, im sure oil pressure means a bunch.

[Kingfish999]

crank isnt the only thing. it has to make it through the crank to the rod bearings, it has to make it up to the cam and to the lifters. when oil pressure is low mean the main bearings are too loose and all the oil is flowing through the bearings instead of overywhere else. for my engine which sees RPMs at 5k maintained for minutes at a time, i need the oil to be everywhere properly. if im at 1200 rpm and it doesnt maintain enough pressure to turn the idiot guage on then i am far under 10psi per 1k rpm.

there is also too much pressure. when too much pressure it means the pump has alot of resistance. this can break the pump shaft, put extreme wear on the timing chain and cam/dizzy gears. it can also blow out bad seals or gaskets. my idea was using thinner oil will make the pump work less hard and flow easier while allowing the oil to reach deeper areas that thicker oil wont reach

[wdford]

Building a "loose" engine for the street is a bad idea. For the minimal gain in HP you're severely limiting it's life. Installing a hv pump then running thinner oil is also a race only application. Some of our guys run really thin oil for qual then switch for the race, what are they gaining? I bet less than 1 to 3 hp at best..

FWIW BMW reduced the oil pump volume in it's S54 3.2l engines to gain 3hp but at what cost? Bearing recalls, reduced rpm limits etc. Our current race S54 uses an enlarged chamber pump and 10w60 race oil. We still exceed our HP expectations and are able to rev to 9k.

Ford builds engines that will run over 300k miles if maintained properly, I'd guess the oiling system is more than adequate for street use.

Kingfish999 - run the HV pump and good race oil, you can also get a heavier duty oil pump drive shaft. Also if you're in danger of oil starvation look into a Canton ACCUSUMP. I am assuming that your running those rpm's in a race / HP driving environment?

EDIT: Just read your info, Submarines should be running on diesel or nuclear anyway :)

[Kingfish999]

im running those rpm in offroad conditions. not in mud but in sand and trails going fast either first or second gear pinned. so instead of the engine haveing a more steady load from drag racing, my engine sees very changing loads as i go over obsticals and different surfaces. compared to my 88 which lasted a year with low pressure, i killed my bearings and pressure less than a month. this made me think that stock oiling setup isnt enough and looser bearings might help even tho it wouldnt be the best onroad.

this oil accumulator looks intresting. ill have to look into it more

[wdford]

Originally Posted by Kingfish999

im running those rpm in offroad conditions. not in mud but in sand and trails going fast

If I saw drops in oil pressure like that I'd probably use the largest accusump I could get. We had issues with the M20 BMW engines starving in long sweeping left hand turns. The accusump would supply oil pressure for the duration of the turn. Is the drop you're seeing less as a reverse spike and more of a chronic issue? You may be running out of oil in the pan and a HV pump will only accelerate your starvation. Run it a 1/2 to 3/4 quart high and see where it goes. Running dual remote filters will effectively increase total overall oil availability too. Just - swagging it here

[Kingfish999]

well when gonig fast it doesnt seem to be such a big issue, it might jsut have alot of cavitation and air in it but i never really notice it drop but it might not be lubricating as it should with the air in it. the biggest issue like most worn old engines is the idle and lower rpm under 1500. but i htink this problem is directly related to how hard the engine sees when gonig fast

the filter relocation i ordered is a dual filter. only cost 10$ more so why not. that, a good amount of hose that will hold some more oil and a big cooler ill be able to hold more oil which should help. the filters and cooler ill have infront of my radiator which should cool the oil alot. jsut the cooler oil alone should help i think.

[ProBronco]

For what U are doing a dry sump or OIL control is what U should be looking at. A good pan with scrapers and windidge control.

I say higher pressure pump, not volume is needed. I always had a thinking HV is for a LOOSE bearing set up..................

Here is a good read:

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewforum.php?f=54

[nelbur]

What the heck is wrong with just using 20W50. It was designed exactly for your problem. The only advantage to thin oil is slightly higher gas mileage, but in your worn engine, it will shorten engine life. If 20W50 is not thick enough to get you into the bottom of the normal range on your oil pressure gauge at idle with a hot or warm engine, you can add some oil thickener.

[ProBronco]

Originally Posted by nelbur

What the heck is wrong with just using 20W50. It was designed exactly for your problem. The only advantage to thin oil is slightly higher gas mileage, but in your worn engine, it will shorten engine life. If 20W50 is not thick enough to get you into the bottom of the normal range on your oil pressure gauge at idle with a hot or warm engine, you can add some oil thickener.

Stop posting BS ! Read,learn something and THEN post.

[Kingfish999]

who said im not using 20w-50? maby im using SAE 60. using thicker oil is a bandaid to the problem to help it last abit longer. the only true fix is rebuild. using thickiners is bad too. using heavy weight oil and thickiners make the oil pump work extra hard and can even break the pump shaft or wear out the dizzy/cam gears. The VII in oils that change the weight of oil that much have less lubricating ability also

[MRadelet]

Don't run a hv pump in a 4x4 application. If your pulling some more extreme angles you run the chance if sucking the pan too low on oil. And for .001 bearing it means the bearing is one thousandth of and inch thicker. It's used IMO to halfass a proper repair. It's used on a crank that is worn. If your crank has wear get it properly ground to a proper undersize.


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[wdford]

Originally Posted by nelbur

What the heck is wrong with just using 20W50. It was designed exactly for your problem. The only advantage to thin oil is slightly higher gas mileage, but in your worn engine, it will shorten engine life. If 20W50 is not thick enough to get you into the bottom of the normal range on your oil pressure gauge at idle with a hot or warm engine, you can add some oil thickener.

Actually no it isn't... It's meant to allow low viscosity winter starts to build pressure more quickly. That isn't his issue...