Catastrophic failure - Page 4 - Ford Bronco Forum
 166Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #61 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 09:28 PM
FSM Lifetime
 
dash_cam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: dallas tx
Posts: 3,126
Bronco Info: 1996 EB, 351w, stock-ish. 1981 custom 351m, long gone.
iTrader: (4)
Garage
I knew this would be good.

Also, sorry for your loss.
BigBlue 94 likes this.
dash_cam is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 09:39 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Doosenberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Southern Idaho
Posts: 857
Bronco Info: 78 Bronco 351M/NP435/NP205 - Holley Sniper - Hedman Headers - MT Classic 3's - 35" MT Deegan 38s
iTrader: (0)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by dash_cam View Post
I knew this would be good.

Also, sorry for your loss.
Thanks, the wake is on Sunday. lol
BigBlue 94 and curtwow like this.


77 F100 Custom SWB - 302/C4 2wd ~ My Daily Driver
78 Bronco Custom T/S - 351M/NP205/NP435 4wd ~ For Fun
75 F150 Custom LWB - 460/C6 2wd ~ Deceased
Doosenberry is offline  
post #63 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 10:55 PM
Registered User
 
Wrencher61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 772
Bronco Info: 11/93 production date. 5.0 engine, M.A.F. , TTB front, 1356 manual shift transfer, 8.8 3.55 L.S.
iTrader: (0)
My guess is that the top of the #8 piston separated at the piston pin bore and then the pieces of the piston crown got mulched and pieces went through the intake valve and into other cylinders. With nowhere for the valves to go the pushrods beat the cam into submission, then the broken piston skirt and debris broke the wall out of the cylinder. Wish you had a “Fast and Furious” styled video of it. Playing Taps for it tonight...big engines that are revved too high will pull the top off the piston either because of the weight or the piston crown trying to seize or the cylinder wall failing from side loading.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	D1C334FB-293A-4184-909E-FA0E13A44A41.jpeg
Views:	16
Size:	219.6 KB
ID:	138126  

BigBlue 94 likes this.

I have been known to sometimes sing “The Hero of Canton” song from the tv show ‘Firefly’ while making breakfast on a weekend morning....
Wrencher61 is offline  
post #64 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 11:08 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Doosenberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Southern Idaho
Posts: 857
Bronco Info: 78 Bronco 351M/NP435/NP205 - Holley Sniper - Hedman Headers - MT Classic 3's - 35" MT Deegan 38s
iTrader: (0)
Garage
Got the distributor out. I'm assuming something stopped while something else kept going. I spun the shaft and it seems straight, but I don't know for sure. Hopefully I can just replace the gear and everything else is alright.







77 F100 Custom SWB - 302/C4 2wd ~ My Daily Driver
78 Bronco Custom T/S - 351M/NP205/NP435 4wd ~ For Fun
75 F150 Custom LWB - 460/C6 2wd ~ Deceased
Doosenberry is offline  
post #65 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 12:13 AM
Registered User
 
Wrencher61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 772
Bronco Info: 11/93 production date. 5.0 engine, M.A.F. , TTB front, 1356 manual shift transfer, 8.8 3.55 L.S.
iTrader: (0)
The crankshaft speed was northwards of 5K when the cam stopped turning, so yeah, the distributor was going half that speed and broke a few teeth slowing down...😬

I have been known to sometimes sing “The Hero of Canton” song from the tv show ‘Firefly’ while making breakfast on a weekend morning....
Wrencher61 is offline  
post #66 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 01:02 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Redford, MI
Posts: 4,575
Bronco Info: '96 Black 302 XLT - '94 Green 351 E. B. both E4OD, 3.55 axles, 31 10.50x15 & a 2018 CT6
iTrader: (3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrencher61 View Post
The crankshaft speed was northwards of 5K when the cam stopped turning, so yeah, the distributor was going half that speed and broke a few teeth slowing down...😬
I'm not sure I agree with this, the cam is driven from the front of the engine, the piston that failed was #8. No reason for the cam to stop turning suddenly.

I could believe that the cam failed (broke), the stub of the camshaft fell down towards the crankshaft, (the cam just sits in the rear cam bearing, nothing holds it at the rear of the engine) and beat the #8 piston from the bottom and destroyed everything around it. The lifter and the pushrod would also have then fallen toward the crank and also got beaten in that cylinder until the engine stopped rotating.
My guess on how the distributor gears were sheared was caused by some pieces if the engine getting caught in the oil pump, and jamming the pump while the engine was still rotating (the distributor gear drives the oil pump). The engine stopped very soon after that!
cobrajoe and Wrencher61 like this.

"The simplest solution is usually the best solution" - Occam's Razor
How in the world are you going to fix it if you don’t know how it worked in the first place?
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." - Albert Einstein
Mikey350 is online now  
post #67 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 01:46 AM
Registered User
 
Wrencher61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 772
Bronco Info: 11/93 production date. 5.0 engine, M.A.F. , TTB front, 1356 manual shift transfer, 8.8 3.55 L.S.
iTrader: (0)
I agree that the front part of the cam was still turning after the back parts broke off. You are probably right about pieces jamming the oil pump....knew there was a flaw in that story....🤔

I have been known to sometimes sing “The Hero of Canton” song from the tv show ‘Firefly’ while making breakfast on a weekend morning....
Wrencher61 is offline  
post #68 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 02:04 AM
Registered User
 
Wrencher61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 772
Bronco Info: 11/93 production date. 5.0 engine, M.A.F. , TTB front, 1356 manual shift transfer, 8.8 3.55 L.S.
iTrader: (0)
The oil pump drive shaft is probably twisted like a candy licorice stick!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	E32510FF-6D3D-4D9D-9509-7DC5AF8F6A45.jpeg
Views:	16
Size:	142.1 KB
ID:	138128  


I have been known to sometimes sing “The Hero of Canton” song from the tv show ‘Firefly’ while making breakfast on a weekend morning....
Wrencher61 is offline  
post #69 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 06:01 AM
Ford Hoarder
 
CrazyBRONCOguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Franklin, Indiana
Posts: 6,142
Bronco Info: See Signature
iTrader: (20)
That orange filter is the problem, I doubt it but still
BigBlue 94 and Doosenberry like this.


Build Thread https://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum...8-project.html
Street Queen '92: 400hp/400ft-lb Roller 351W Built by Me, C6 Swap, 9" Swap, Corbeau Seats, Desert Bumpers, 4.10s, 33s
Sleeper Build '78: 2.5" Bypass Shocks, Deaver Springs, Full Roll Cage, Spool, 460, Hydro-Boost Brakes, Modded Duff Arms, Broader C6, Rust
CrazyBRONCOguy is online now  
post #70 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 06:17 AM
Ford-a-Holic
 
cobrajoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fairhaven, MA
Posts: 3,728
Bronco Info: 1996 Eddie-Bauer 5.8/1974 Bronco 351C
iTrader: (0)
I'm still leaning on the cam breaking first. You'll have a better idea once you pull the bottom end apart, either way, you really don't have much you can salvage.

Big blocks are nice, but they don't like RPM's, that's a lot of weight flying around in there.
BigBlue 94 and Doosenberry like this.

When I was fourteen years old, I was amazed at how unintelligent my father was. By the time I turned twenty-one, I was astounded at how much he had learned in the last seven years



MY BUILD THREAD
cobrajoe is offline  
post #71 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 11:18 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Doosenberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Southern Idaho
Posts: 857
Bronco Info: 78 Bronco 351M/NP435/NP205 - Holley Sniper - Hedman Headers - MT Classic 3's - 35" MT Deegan 38s
iTrader: (0)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyBRONCOguy View Post
That orange filter is the problem, I doubt it but still
I knew someone would say that as soon as I loaded those pics. What's funny is I don't ever remember using a Fram filter. For the first few years, at the very least, I always used Mobil1 oil and filters. Makes me wonder if my older brother did that or had someone do it as it sat at his house for a year or two towards the end of its life before it came back to me and then sat some more.

Do I really have to keep tearing this thing apart? lol Man...

As far as having more gears ripped apart, it has a gear drive on it. I'm curious what kind of carnage is up there.

Oh and as far as the cam goes, from what I can see and feel so far, the very rear part of the cam is still there. It's literally missing maybe 1-2" of cam right where those missing lifters are. I can feel both ends and yes, the rear part is barely hanging on as I can wiggle it around. It's like it literally ripped out a lobe or two and that's all. Weird stuff.

I'll have to separate the tranny from the engine before I really do much more. Anyone want a C6 with a shift kit?
dash_cam likes this.


77 F100 Custom SWB - 302/C4 2wd ~ My Daily Driver
78 Bronco Custom T/S - 351M/NP205/NP435 4wd ~ For Fun
75 F150 Custom LWB - 460/C6 2wd ~ Deceased
Doosenberry is offline  
post #72 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 12:07 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Doosenberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Southern Idaho
Posts: 857
Bronco Info: 78 Bronco 351M/NP435/NP205 - Holley Sniper - Hedman Headers - MT Classic 3's - 35" MT Deegan 38s
iTrader: (0)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobrajoe View Post
I'm still leaning on the cam breaking first. You'll have a better idea once you pull the bottom end apart, either way, you really don't have much you can salvage.

Big blocks are nice, but they don't like RPM's, that's a lot of weight flying around in there.
Yeah, I'm kinda bummed out more wasn't salvageable. Before the engine blew up I was wanting to find a decent shortbed truck around the same year as my F150 and swap the entire drivetrain into it.

Well the order of operations didn't quite work out and I found a shortbed truck, but had no drivetrain for it. Then I figured I'd salvage the top end of this engine and put it on a good bottom end and kinda continue with the plan. Well, doesn't look like that's gonna happen either.

I already have another rebuildable 460 sitting in my back room slightly torn down, but it has even less desireable heads than the D3VE's that were on my deceased 460 as it's a later engine. I just knew I needed a new block and got ahead of myself.

There's a swap meet coming up this Saturday at our city park, which is about 100 feet from my house. I'm thinking about taking whatever good I can get off this thing and seeing if I can find some good windsor parts and either rebuild the 302w in my truck or build a 351w and swap it in. Either way I think the parts are gonna go whether it's at that meet or on CL or something.

It may sound weird, but taking this thing apart is kinda getting the performance juices flowing again. At the very least I miss the sound of that engine. My younger brother said it sounded like a lion roaring at WOT.
cobrajoe likes this.


77 F100 Custom SWB - 302/C4 2wd ~ My Daily Driver
78 Bronco Custom T/S - 351M/NP205/NP435 4wd ~ For Fun
75 F150 Custom LWB - 460/C6 2wd ~ Deceased
Doosenberry is offline  
post #73 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 12:57 PM
FSM Lifetime
 
dash_cam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: dallas tx
Posts: 3,126
Bronco Info: 1996 EB, 351w, stock-ish. 1981 custom 351m, long gone.
iTrader: (4)
Garage
get the 460 pieced back together and put it in your bronco?
dash_cam is offline  
post #74 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 02:27 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Doosenberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Southern Idaho
Posts: 857
Bronco Info: 78 Bronco 351M/NP435/NP205 - Holley Sniper - Hedman Headers - MT Classic 3's - 35" MT Deegan 38s
iTrader: (0)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by dash_cam View Post
get the 460 pieced back together and put it in your bronco?
I've considered that with the 460 in my back room. I'd still need to finish stripping it down and verify it's good enough to rebuild. A 460 really isn't a priority for the Bronco at the moment though. I'd like to do other upgrades to it first before swapping engines.


77 F100 Custom SWB - 302/C4 2wd ~ My Daily Driver
78 Bronco Custom T/S - 351M/NP205/NP435 4wd ~ For Fun
75 F150 Custom LWB - 460/C6 2wd ~ Deceased
Doosenberry is offline  
post #75 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Doosenberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Southern Idaho
Posts: 857
Bronco Info: 78 Bronco 351M/NP435/NP205 - Holley Sniper - Hedman Headers - MT Classic 3's - 35" MT Deegan 38s
iTrader: (0)
Garage
Forgot I had a few more pictures on my phone.

I tried to get some shots of the cam where it broke.

This one is a shot of a lifter on its side wedged between a cam lobe and the block.




Here's the very rear part of the cam. You can see the "core" of the cam. It's the lighter gray. The cam lobe has the black on it next to the "core". You can also see that busted lifter above it and one that is still in one piece and in its bore below it in the pic.





Here's a shot of the other side of the cam where it broke. It looks like it broke flush with the cam bearing journal. Again you can see the light gray of the "core" and then the darker color is the part resting in the journal.





So maybe it's missing closer to 3" of cam. The width of two rods and a crank counterweight.
BigBlue 94 likes this.


77 F100 Custom SWB - 302/C4 2wd ~ My Daily Driver
78 Bronco Custom T/S - 351M/NP205/NP435 4wd ~ For Fun
75 F150 Custom LWB - 460/C6 2wd ~ Deceased
Doosenberry is offline  
post #76 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 03:31 PM
Ford-a-Holic
 
cobrajoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fairhaven, MA
Posts: 3,728
Bronco Info: 1996 Eddie-Bauer 5.8/1974 Bronco 351C
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doosenberry View Post
Anyone want a C6 with a shift kit?

Do you deliver?
Doosenberry likes this.

When I was fourteen years old, I was amazed at how unintelligent my father was. By the time I turned twenty-one, I was astounded at how much he had learned in the last seven years



MY BUILD THREAD
cobrajoe is offline  
post #77 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 07:22 PM
Driving Stuff Henry Built
 
El Kabong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal (SGV)
Posts: 7,465
Bronco Info: *90 xlt, 351w, e4od, man 1356, 3.55, sag, warn hubs, 35" bfg m/t. *73, 400, np435, d20j twin, 35s
iTrader: (8)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doosenberry View Post
Anyone want a C6 with a shift kit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobrajoe View Post
Do you deliver?
Will it fit in a flat rate box?
cobrajoe and Doosenberry like this.

Baba Looey's Favorite FSB Links........................Common Replies to FAQs

“Don't find fault, find a remedy.” -Henry Ford
El Kabong is online now  
post #78 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 07:44 PM
Ford-a-Holic
 
cobrajoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fairhaven, MA
Posts: 3,728
Bronco Info: 1996 Eddie-Bauer 5.8/1974 Bronco 351C
iTrader: (0)
I've been thinking about this a lot lately, (I really love engine porn, but probably should get on with my life!) at first I was wondering if the pin on the cam broke, but then again, you'd probably have a lot more damage from piston to valve contact. Then there is also the probability that the cam may have been dropped during shipping or was just plain bad.

I guess i'm just wondering if the motor failed because of the cam, or the cam failed because of the motor?

That's why I was curious as to how the bottom end was. In other words, did #8 bearing seize up because of an oil issue? You could have picked up a piece of silicone , RTV, etc in the oil pump or as said earlier, did you twist your stock oil pump drive? I used to run Cleveland in the old days and if you ran a HV pump with a stock drive, it would end up looking like licorice.
Anxiously waiting for more (for some unknown reason, I really need to get a life, sigh....)
BigBlue 94 and Doosenberry like this.

When I was fourteen years old, I was amazed at how unintelligent my father was. By the time I turned twenty-one, I was astounded at how much he had learned in the last seven years



MY BUILD THREAD
cobrajoe is offline  
post #79 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-20-2019, 07:17 AM
Registered User
 
biggum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,526
Bronco Info: 86 XLT 351 HO, Holley 650, 3" Exhaust, 6L Up, 265/75R16 Dirt Commanders, & 85 302 EFI, AOD, 6L Up
iTrader: (0)
Garage
Catastrophic failure

Yes, chicken or egg.

I see two trigger clues;

1) Water jacket breaks from heat and friction, Piston top comes off, smashes open valve, bends push rod, lifter shoots out since nothing is holding it down now, rattled around down into the cam, binds and breaks the cam, other lifter drops out and push rod with it.

2)Cam breaks, lifters drop, pushers go, why would the piston go then? Valves would be closed so no compression etc.

I think things started with the piston failing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

When you have to shoot, shoot - don't talk.
https://binged.it/2LnJaeA
biggum is offline  
post #80 of 154 (permalink) Old 06-20-2019, 09:59 AM
Driving Stuff Henry Built
 
El Kabong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal (SGV)
Posts: 7,465
Bronco Info: *90 xlt, 351w, e4od, man 1356, 3.55, sag, warn hubs, 35" bfg m/t. *73, 400, np435, d20j twin, 35s
iTrader: (8)
Question

Back in post 17, how did metal get in the ports? With the intake manifold intact, it seems like the only open path would be piston pieces sucked backwards thru an open #8 intake valve, not cam/lifter parts. If the #8 piston is no longer creating vacuum, & it's intake opens, then vacuum in the manifold from the other 7 might suck small pieces into the manifold. It seems like for the # 8 intake to open, that missing chunk of cam would still have to be there at that moment to open that valve. So maybe the cam survived for a little after the piston began to come apart. Long enough to allow debris to flow backwards.

If that's the case, is the cam broken when #8 valves hit the piston disintegratiing parts stacked up on the rod? It seems like pushrods should have bent instead. But if those cams are known to be weak... or did something from below hit the cam?

Baba Looey's Favorite FSB Links........................Common Replies to FAQs

“Don't find fault, find a remedy.” -Henry Ford
El Kabong is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Ford Bronco Forum > Other Forums > General Discussion/ Bronco and Wheeling related.

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Bronco Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself. DO NOT USE Gmail.com accounts. If you only have a Gmail.com email please contact the administrator here

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome