Catastrophic failure - Page 5 - Ford Bronco Forum
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post #81 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-20-2019, 01:35 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cobrajoe View Post
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I've been thinking about this a lot lately, (I really love engine porn, but probably should get on with my life!) at first I was wondering if the pin on the cam broke, but then again, you'd probably have a lot more damage from piston to valve contact. Then there is also the probability that the cam may have been dropped during shipping or was just plain bad.

I guess i'm just wondering if the motor failed because of the cam, or the cam failed because of the motor?

That's why I was curious as to how the bottom end was. In other words, did #8 bearing seize up because of an oil issue? You could have picked up a piece of silicone , RTV, etc in the oil pump or as said earlier, did you twist your stock oil pump drive? I used to run Cleveland in the old days and if you ran a HV pump with a stock drive, it would end up looking like licorice.
Anxiously waiting for more (for some unknown reason, I really need to get a life, sigh....)
I actually got that transmission off Ebay. It came in a crate all the way from Indiana. The guy I bought it off of had it rebuilt for his Foxbody with a 460. I guess he decided to go bigger with power and decided to use a different transmission or so that was the story. No one else bid on it and I got it for like 100 bucks since there was no reserve. He had it listed as freight included in the price which is why I bid. He didn't know it was gonna cost like $200 to ship it. Once he realized that, after the sale, he called me and we actually split the freight cost since I was still getting it dirt cheap and otherwise he wasn't gonna be able to get it to me.

Also, if you're liking these pics so much maybe I should start chargin'.


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Originally Posted by El Kabong View Post
Back in post 17, how did metal get in the ports?
Just to elaborate even further, I found piston skirt pieces all the way in the plenum under the carb. That was before I had the engine yanked out and I had removed the carb to start salvaging things under the hood.





Speed Pro Piston. Matches the lightning bolt design on the skirt.

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post #82 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-20-2019, 07:42 PM
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Here are close ups of the driver side head. #8 really got beat to crap and of course we know why. It even smashed the spark plug, which you wouldn't know it from the outside as the spark plug is still there. I guess it's got the "hammer finish" now like my wedding ring does.


8-7-6-5 is the order here

Here's my forensic evaluation (actually best guess).
The looks of the #8 cylinder head indicates (to me) that something was rattling around in that combustion chamber for quite a while, not just one or two revs. (like a bolt or maybe a nut). So my guess is that something fell into that #8 hole and bounced around until it beat the top of the piston.
Cylinders #2, 3, 5, and 8 are in the same plane on your dual plane intake manifold. #2 & #3 seem to have more small pieces than #1 & 4. That also might indicate that whatever was happening in the #8 hole happened for a few seconds, long enough for the manifold vacuum to suck those small pieces up through the #8 intake and distribute it through the intake manifold.
A piece of the piston eventually jammed against the cylinder wall or shattered the piston. Then the rod pulled off the bottom of the piston.
The flailing around of the connecting rod and piston pin hit the cam and broke it.
The small pieces got sucked up into the oil pump and seized it, but the cam still had a couple more turns and sheared off the distributor driven gear teeth as the distributor drive shaft was stopped.

The breaking of the piston and the cam (and the intake pushrods for #4 & 8) happened last and then the engine stopped for good. (and no more distributing of the small parts through the intake)
So, when you pull the pan and find the foreign object that was in that #8 combustion chamber, you'll know what the root cause of the problem was. Carburetor stud nuts are notorious for finding their way into an engine.
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post #83 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-20-2019, 08:05 PM
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In my opinion, the piston broke causing the rest of the chaos.

This is the reason i won't use and steer friends away from hypereutectic pistons.

They are brittle and any detonation can turn them into marbles,just like this case.

Newer vehicles run hypereutectic pistons but have knock sensors to save the engine in case of detonation.

Chicken or the egg-my opinion the piston started/ended this kaboom
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post #84 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-21-2019, 09:10 PM Thread Starter
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I got the accessories off. Took the water pump off. I got the timing cover cracked open and I can see that noisy gear drive (#regret), BUT... forgot I need the harmonic balancer off to fully remove the timing cover, so I'll have to come back to that after I rent a puller. I removed the starter and unbolted the transmission as well, but I haven't taken it off the engine yet. I'll probably secure the torque converter to the tranny, so it doesn't come out of the bell housing and then wrap it up and set it in the back yard until I can sell it. C6... Shift kit... 2k stall Hughes converter...

I've decided that I'm just gonna scrap my future 460 plans and do something else. I'm gonna start cleaning up what I think is salvageable or should I say sellable and send it on its way. They're already setting up shop at the park across the street. There's a truck with a car hauler and he has an old vw bug and an amc gremlin for sale. I really hope someone buys that gremlin and turns it into a hot rod. Yes...
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post #85 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-22-2019, 12:57 AM
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... They're already setting up shop at the park across the street. There's a truck with a car hauler and he has an old vw bug and an amc gremlin for sale. I really hope someone buys that gremlin and turns it into a hot rod. Yes...
Where's @BikerPepe` & @schwim ?
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post #86 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-22-2019, 03:30 AM
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If that Gremlin has the 304 with the LS rear end... turning it into a hot rod wouldn't take much, assuming it's in decent running condition of course. There was a Levi's edition that collectors would freak out over out there somewhere too. Knew a gal that had one, long ago.

Good memories, yes indeed.
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post #87 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-22-2019, 01:19 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BikerPepe` View Post
If that Gremlin has the 304 with the LS rear end... turning it into a hot rod wouldn't take much, assuming it's in decent running condition of course. There was a Levi's edition that collectors would freak out over out there somewhere too. Knew a gal that had one, long ago.

Good memories, yes indeed.
What's funny is that I saw a nice example of a Gremlin drive by when I was at the park looking at cars. Two in one spot is unheard of, lol. I'll go take some pics of the ones on the car hauler. This is a swap meet, so these two examples are not prime. Actually, that whole swap meet is pretty much a bust for me. It should be called the 90% GM swap meet. I saw a Bronco gas tank, which was easy to spot from a mile away as I've recently replaced mine, but that was it for anything close to my realm of needs. There was a smidge of some flathead ford era stuff and some Model A stuff.

They hold a car show at the swap meet as well and it's also mostly GM of course. I don't know about you guys, but I walk right past Chevelles and Impalas, not interested. I think they're cool, but I wanna see something new. There was an early Bronco and a late (71-73) first gen Mustang that is a body style I've started to really appreciate. Kinda reminds me of an AMC Javelin. The only one that reeeally caught my eye was a Studebaker Avanti. The thing looked mint and I've never seen or even heard of one. Pretty unique little car. Looks like Studebaker's attempt at capturing a piece of the European sports car market as it kinda has that feel to it.


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post #88 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-22-2019, 05:23 PM Thread Starter
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I know I've derailed this thread a bit, but I guess I can hijack my own thread. Some pics from the swap meet/car show. Mostly things that I find interesting or that I like.




Here's the Gremlin. Apparently it's just a shell. I saw it when I was driving by the park on my way home yesterday. Apparently he wanted to set up a day early.






The guy who owned them was obviously annoyed with me taking pics though. I heard him say something to another guy who brought stuff to the meet along the lines of "Everyone's taking pictures, but no one wants to buy.", so... I snapped a couple more and quickly left.


And now this is a VW thread.




The Studebaker Avanti. Notice the front and rear wing windows. A car after my own heart.





'62 Scout with a V6. I'd imagine if you weren't a jeep guy, this might be your go to as it was around prior to the first gen Bronco. I didn't get a shot of it, but it had 4 sticks. I'm assuming one for each diff and one for the transfer case. It was pretty neat and also for sale. No idea how much.




Oooooooooh Barracuda.




And a few other goodies that I liked. My 7 year old daughters were with me and they apparently knew how to start the one with the crank on the front from watching some animated movie. They probably didn't know that was a real thing.







They may not be very powerful, but I think the Flathead V8's are the sexiest lookin' engines when they're all dressed up. The car that had this engine was actually for sale. 28k and it's yours.




This isn't a very big show and most of these, to me, look like drivers rather than trailer queens. They have an "early iron" car show at the community college here each year and that's where the real trailer queens show up.

I'll see if I can get a puller for my harmonic balancer today and continue on with my slow autopsy.


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post #89 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-22-2019, 10:26 PM Thread Starter
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Back to our regularly scheduled program.

I got the puller and getting the balancer off was easy peasy. It took maybe 5 minutes start to finish to set up the puller, get the balancer off, and put the puller away. Would have been a 1 minute job if I had room for the impact, but with all my junk in there things are tight.

Getting the timing cover off was a bitch though. It kept getting caught on a lip on the crank snout. It probably took me a good 10 minutes to walk the thing off the crank, but a lot of that was due to the angles I had to work with. Remind me to never strip down an engine in the bed of a truck with a bunch of other stuff in it. I keep filling up the empty space with other stuff as I take it off the engine as well. At least some of this stuff will soon hit the scrap heap.




Typical 70's 460 timing cover condition. Yummy. This is for a front sump oil pan. You can see the tube for the dipstick on the left hand side. It goes juuuust inside the front edge of the oil pan.




Starting position. Note the timing pointer in relation to the balancer.




Ending position. The balancer is right on the end of the snout. As you can see it's been pulled past the end of the timing pointer before I was able to remove it by hand. Lots of back and forth on the ratchet.




This is about as far as I could get the cover off before I had to start using a long flathead screwdriver to slowly walk it off the crank snout. I had to straddle the block and get over the center of the cover, because doing things leaning in from the side of the bed was proving ineffective.




Here's that lip once I got the whole thing off. Bastard.




There she blows. It looks brand new to me. All the teeth look good. I'm sure they are a lot more stout than the tiny teeth on the distributor gear that sheared off.




I didn't take any more off yet. I did lean the block back and forth and peeked into the oil pan and there are definitely some nice, large chunks of metal in there. I couldn't get a pic of it though with such a small opening. Depending on how ambitious I feel, I may start digging out my hoist from my back room tomorrow. Then it should be just a matter of flipping the block over and I'll have the rest pulled apart quickly.


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post #90 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-23-2019, 11:22 PM Thread Starter
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Aw man. I think I done messed up guys.

I decided to take my Bronco top off today. Last year when I took it off I just set it on top of my truck until the weather started to get icky and then put it back on. Well, I did the same thing today. Not sure how I'm gonna flip that engine over now...

Ever wonder how short your "shorthorn" really is? May I present to you a short wheelbase (117") regular cab F100 with a Bronco (104" wheelbase) topper on the bed.



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post #91 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 09:33 PM Thread Starter
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Well, I'm gonna get this heap of crap sorted out over the next couple of days. I'll be putting the topper back on the Bronco, so I can get this done. I would like to drive my truck again as my Bronco is currently being a huge unreliable pos, so this bed is gonna need some clearing out as I don't want everything rolling around as I'm driving.

We're very slow at work tonight, so I'm probably going to go home early and attempt to get my hoist out. It's buried, so buried.

This is where it is and this is what it looked like before it started to get buried. If there wasn't a bunch of crap around this engine on the stand then it'd be easy enough to roll things around, but that is definitely not the case now. Just envision this pic, but with boxes and tools and random stuff all around the base of the stand and underneath the engine.



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post #92 of 152 (permalink) Old 07-04-2019, 10:52 PM Thread Starter
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Uhhh... So plans are ever changing. The top didn't go back on the Bronco and the hoist hasn't moved quite yet.

I acquired a new project truck with a flatbed, so I used my time getting that hunk o' junk squared away. However... I'm thinkin' I can put the engine on the flatbed now and that would make things easier for me to fiddle with considering my limited space. It should be fairly easy to get the engine onto the flatbed as well.

I'm also thinking about that 460 sitting in my back room. I'm gonna try to finish stripping it down a bit. I'll probably just get it to about where my broken 460 in my truck bed is at as far as tear down and then take the short block to a machine shop and see what they think about it's condition and go from there. I just really want to get it out of the back room.

I have this weekend off (fri-sun), so I effin' really need to get motivated and actually complete some... stuff. I have multiple projects going on at the same time if you haven't noticed, but I wouldn't have it any other way. I get wore out or bored of stuff at times and being able to switch to a different vehicle with different needs really keeps me going.

I promise to get some more tear down pics this weekend! I gotta get that topper on the Bronco, then the hoist out, then the engine is getting flipped over and spanked. Who knows, maybe the crank is still good since all the rods are still attached to it keeping the journals covered. Ya never know! I'm remaining optimistic!
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post #93 of 152 (permalink) Old 07-07-2019, 05:23 PM Thread Starter
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Ran into a snag out the gate, boys. Remember that rod that's bent and stuck in cylinder 8? Well, I'm trying to separate the engine and tranny so I can do with each as I please and that isn't going to happen, very easily, if I can't rotate things to get at the converter bolts. I highly recommend not nuking your engine...

I'm gonna see if I can get a wrench in between the engine and tranny as I have about an inch gap between the two at the moment. The rear of the block and the converter look great though! Nice and shiny paint...
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post #94 of 152 (permalink) Old 07-07-2019, 08:12 PM Thread Starter
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I was able to get three of the four torque converter nuts off, but the fourth was giving me trouble and I couldn't quite reach it. I figured since I couldn't rotate the crank shaft that I'd try rotating the whole engine a little and see if I could get that last nut by removing the inspection cover. It was a success. Now I just need a chain with larger links and some nuts and bolts so I can secure it to the transmission. Unless you guys have a better way of hoisting a transmission. If it wasn't just me I'd have someone help me lift it out of the truck. I did that when I bought this one, though that was without the torque converter and all that fluid inside it.



It's a bit dusty, been sitting a long time.







Red red red red red...





When I lifted the engine everything that was left in the oil pan started pouring out the back end of the pan. There's a hole in the bottom under that massacre in cylinder 8, but I also noticed this nice mess. Looks like a lot of shrapnel penetrated from this explosion.

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post #95 of 152 (permalink) Old 07-08-2019, 12:28 AM Thread Starter
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Up up and away.





Gotta say this flatbed is pretty awesome. Just remove the side board and swing things on in.





It made a lot of noise when I started setting it down and flipping it over. Like a coffee can full of nuts and bolts being rolled around.







I didn't get around to doing most of this until it was getting pretty late. Finished just as the sun was setting.




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post #96 of 152 (permalink) Old 07-08-2019, 06:11 AM
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Anxiously awaiting more engine porn....
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post #97 of 152 (permalink) Old 07-08-2019, 09:46 AM
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Open - Open - Open...

Seriously tho' I can't wait to see if that block can be "Sleeved".
(We already know the heads look like they might be salvageable.)

Good Luck
Dragon
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post #98 of 152 (permalink) Old 07-08-2019, 11:05 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by White Dragon View Post
Open - Open - Open...

Seriously tho' I can't wait to see if that block can be "Sleeved".
(We already know the heads look like they might be salvageable.)

Good Luck
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post #99 of 152 (permalink) Old 07-08-2019, 03:15 PM Thread Starter
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Just keep in mind the way I flipped this thing over caused everything to pile up in the rear of the oil pan. I wasn't kidding when I said it sounded like a coffee can of nuts and bolts being rolled around.



I had to hammer around a few bolts to get them out as the pan had been pushed out against the bolt heads.






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post #100 of 152 (permalink) Old 07-08-2019, 03:20 PM Thread Starter
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As a side note, my F100 has been leaking since I parked it with this payload and now the puddle is quite noticeable. I'm gettin' tired of this shit. I wish one of these turds would just give me a break. Considering the location of the puddle on the ground I'm assuming it's the transmission. I haven't bothered getting underneath it yet, because why the hell would I do that.




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