No Timing Advance - 4 years of misery and pleasure - Ford Bronco Forum
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 08:01 PM Thread Starter
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No Timing Advance - 4 years of misery and pleasure

Hi guys,
Mies5 was kind enough to send me this way and I would like to hear your opinions. I have a '94 Bronco 302, 32"Mickey's, 140.000miles and she's been a head ache since day 1.
Biggest issue, no power whatsoever. (I know the 302 is no powerhouse, but on sand, full left or right and full throttle, no wheel spin, not even on the inside wheel.)

Quick list of what I've done so far (biggest changes, might forget a few) and later what I havent done and some odd things.

DONE:
Pistons, rings, valve job, gaskets. Changed MAF (3x), TPS (2x), TFI, Torque converter (2x), new E40D, Pickup for distributor, distributor overhauled, alternator overhauled, new airco (2x), harmonic balancer (was loose) checked TDC and timed it to 10 degrees (spout out, 10 degrees, spout 1, advancing a little). (also tried 12, 14, 16, since we're at 4.000 feet altitude) May have forgotten some things. New fuel pump, fuel filters, oil, etc. Ford says fuel pressure is good. (But they've been wrong before. Pressure seems ok, flow I havent been able to read.)

Have read vacuum and was perfect year ago with same issues.
Fuel filter was completely clogged up, but since replaced twice.

NOT DONE:
EGR, Computer (have seen timing advance in past and visually checked for leaking capacitors, all look brand spanking new)

MORE:
Car has no cats, trying to keep everything original (parts from the US, motorcraft, etc. Just the airco is a chinese knock off... and the only thing that has worked for 3 years straight :-(

WEIRD
No O2 sensor in the exhaust.
Putting Spout in advanced the timing a little, but throttling not moving timing.
Car idles like a kitten, without missing a beat.


CODES 212, 56 and 45 (last two I'm not 100% sure, left notes at office.)
212 - Ignition TACH signal was erratic (module/wiring) or SPOUT circuit fault - Ignition Systems
Here I think is where the problem is. Just that everyone with a code 212 has a badly idling car. Mine starts and idles perfectly.

Two questions:
Obviously; help with the NO ADVANCING OF THE TIMING

But also: IMhumbleO EFI's always have a O2 sensor in the exhaust... Is it possible to run ok without the computer receiving info on the O2?

Thanks for reading and I hope I get her running well one day, it's still my favorite car!

Jaco
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Love my '94 truck, but she's fighting me all the way... Hope to one day trust it enough to travel the country.
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 08:18 PM
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Your likely right about the timing. Wires to and from the spout connector or the connector plug itself may be bad. I’ve heard of a tach causing ignition problems but can’t remember if it was on a ford.

I have been known to sometimes sing “The Hero of Canton” song from the tv show ‘Firefly’ while making breakfast on a weekend morning....
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 08:20 PM
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It is gonna be in a terrible limp home mode without input from an oxygen sensor. Usually turns the timing way back and the mixture way rich so you can’t really hurt the motor, but it will make no power
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-14-2019, 10:18 AM
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Yo C,
You should see just three digit codes.

212...IDM is a feedback signal generated by the ignition system and is monitored at pin #4 of the ECM. Its purpose is to diagnose missed ignition primary pulses at the time the ECM commands the Spout signal to fire the coil. Since it is used solely for diagnostic purposes, if this circuit is not operating properly, it will not affect vehicle driveability; & by Seattle FSB- The Ignition Diagnostic Monitor (IDM) signal is a diagnostic signal for the PCM to to verify a coil firing for each PIP signal. If an erratic or missing IDM signal is received, a Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC 212) is set. An occasional IDM signal may not affect drivability, but can still throw a trouble code. As SigEpBlue has stated, check for an intermittent ground on the spOUT and/or IDM circuit. Also, ensure that you have the correct Ignition Control Module (ICM) and it is wired correctly to the PCM..." Miesk5 NOTE; use BLACK CCD Ignition Modules in 94-96 Broncos
Source: by SMP via SigEpBlue (Steve) & by Seattle FSB (SeattleFSB) at FSB

Almost all parts sources are incorrect and show that 94-96 h a Grey module.
The Correct Motorcraft part number for the 94-96 BLACK CCD Ignition Modules is a DY1077 (supersedes DY679, DY667, DY645).
Here is a 212 troubleshooting article for a 95 F 150, but same for your 94 Bronco
DTC 212 indicates a loss of IDM input to the PCM; "...Open harness circuit. Shorted harness circuit. Damaged Ignition Control Module (ICM). Damaged Powertrain Control Module (PCM)..." READ MORE
Source: by Jim

But this set of tests includes use of Ford's old Break-Out Box; so, as I mentioned in another thread here; In place of the break-out box, go to the EEC connector pin instead; Substitute EEC connector pin Number for breakout box number
EEC IV Connector Pin Diagram
Source: by Fireguy50 (Ryan M) at
EEC IV Connector Pin LEGEND Bronco & Ford Truck & Van: 4.9, 460, 5.0, 5.8;
Source: by Ryan M (Fireguy50) at Ford Fuel Injection

Btw, On 21 May, 2019 I purchased a 96 Ford Bronco 5.0 ignition control module,* DY 1077 from Rock Auto.

Here is the RA DY 1077 advertisement showing Motorcraft Logo.

I received it yesterday and noticed the usual Motorcraft logo wasn't impressed on*it.*

Picture shows the only side with information impressed.
The box looked the same as what I have purchased in past from our local Ford dealership.


This is the Wal-Mart DY 1077 with the Motorcraft Logo.
¤
I e mailed Ford Global Brand Protection and asked, "is this is a genuine Mototocraft part?"
The RA ICM is now in the Bronco and there is no CEL. Had to install it because we need the Bronco today to drive to school to pick up grandson, then drive to retrieve #4 son's vehicle, transport another off spring to a doc, etc.
If ICM is not genuine Motorcraft, I'll replace it, then deal with RA.

"What Is Global Brand Protection?
The Global Brand Protection group exists to protect the consumer by ensuring high quality original equipment parts are used in your vehicle that are recommended by Ford Motor Company. Counterfeit products potentially compromise consumer expectations because they do not meet Ford Motor Company’s rigorous testing and quality control standards..."
Ford | Global Brand Protection

Received e mail back from Ford Motor Company Global Brand Protection;
"...After reviewing the information you provided, the part you purchased appears to be genuine. The OE current model part does not have a Motorcraft/Ford logo on it and looks like the part in your photo. Since the vehicle model year for this part is very old the supplier of the part most likely has changed. Also we have not had any prior issues with Rock Auto selling non-genuine parts."
¤
Ignition Control Module Removal
Remove two screws retaining ignition control module (ICM) (12A297) heat sink assembly to left fender apron.
Disconnect harness connector from ignition control module.
Remove two screws retaining ignition control module to heat sink and remove ignition control module.
Installation
Coat ignition control module baseplate with silicone compound, approximately 0.0179mm (1/32-inch) thick. Use Silicone Dielectric Compound (WA-10) D7AZ-19A331-A or equivalent meeting Ford specification ESE-M1C171-A.
Dielectric vs Thermal Grease Ignition Control Module (ICM) discussion @ http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/...al-grease.html
Position ignition control module onto heat sink and tighten two retaining screws to 1.2-1.8 Nm (11-16 lb-in).
Install ignition control module heat sink assembly on left fender apron using two retaining screws, and tighten to 9-14 Nm (80-124 lb-in).
Connect wiring to ignition control module.


Timing:
Timing Adjustment by sackman9975 @ https://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum...302-351-a.html

For posterity; Spark Output (SPOUT) Connector Location (near driver's side hood hinge) in a 94 5.0

Source: by sewiv (Sandy)

Ignition, etc Wiring Diagrams in a 94 EVTM by Mikey350 @ https://www.supermotors.net/registry/23082/77071-2

E4OD Transmission Control Indicator Light (TCIL), it is a LED and overdrive on/off switch at end of the Transmission shifter stalk; flashing OD light is an indication of a transmission related trouble code in the Powertrain Control Module (PCM).
Is it flashing while driving?

When it loses power, what is the RPM reading? (Assuming you have a tach). From a fading memory,
I believe the EEC IV Limits revs at 5,500 rpm.

Some Ford Lack/Loss of Power in Acceleration or Cruise Suspects;
Although you did test vacuum lines, etc., see my leak diagnosis link in post #11 it includes HVAC System.
One way to do a quick check is to grab a vacuum gauge. Some parts stores will loan you a gauge with refundable deposit.
The vacuum gauge should read between 15 and 22 in-Hg depending upon the engine condition and the altitude at which the test is performed. SUBTRACT ONE INCH FROM THE SPECIFIED READING FOR EVERY 1,000 FEET OF ELEVATION ABOVE SEA LEVEL.
The reading should be quite steady. .
When engine is rapidly accelerated (dotted needle), needle will drop to a low (not to zero) reading. When throttle is suddenly released, the needle will snap back up to a higher than normal figure.

When vacuum leaks are indicated, search out and correct the condition. Excess air leaking into the system will upset the fuel mixture and cause conditions such as rough idle, missing on acceleration, or burned valves. Or Air Conditioning when in MAX mode may switch to Defrost.

Air filter, is it relatively clean?
Air inlet atop radiator support to filter box and to throttle body; look for obstruction; damaged tubing

Transmission Fluid; Observe color and odor of the fluid. It should be red, not brown or black. Odor may indicate overheating condition, clutch disc or band failure. Use an absorbent white facial tissue and wipe the fluid level indicator. Examine the stain for evidence of solid particles and for engine coolant signs (gum or varnish on fluid level indicator).
If particles are present in the fluid or there is evidence of engine coolant or water, the transmission pan must be removed for further inspection.

Fuel quality; Oxidized fuel often turns darker over time and may even smell sour. You can check stored gasoline by pouring some into a clear glass container and comparing it side-by-side with known fresh gasoline. If your old sample looks noticeably darker than the fresh gas, you have strong evidence the gas has gone bad.

Electrical connectors; inspect for corrosion, etc at coil, firewall, ICM, distributor, PCM, etc. especially those with broken locking tabs.

Is Radiator obstructed? (This this is a left-over from Model T days).

Following by WALKER® EXHAUST SYSTEMS:
No Code suspects are:
"Intake manifold vacuum which drops excessively with RPMs. High exhaust back pressure (greater than 1.5 psi at idle and 3 psi at 2000 rpms on most vehicles).
Passageways within the muffler, resonator or converter have become blocked or restricted. This could be caused by rusted partitions within the muffler breaking away from their original positions and blocking exhaust flow. It can also be caused by chunks of converter substrate material caught in the muffler or from excessive carbon build up in the converter. Another possible source of restriction is crushed exhaust pipes or internal air gap pipe failure. Inspect the exhaust system for crushed, bent or otherwise restricted pipes. Replace or repair as required. If pipes look good, temporarily remove the O2 sensor ahead of the converter. If symptoms are still present inspect for internal air gap pipe restriction ahead of the converter. If symptoms are no longer present, reinstall the front O2 sensor, remove the O2 sensor behind the converter and retest the vehicle. If symptoms are still present the converter is causing the restriction. Check for rich condition, excessive oil consumption, misfires or other root cause of failure. If symptoms are no longer present with the rear O2 sensor removed, the restriction is in the muffler or resonator. Inspect and replace resonator or muffler assembly as required.
Leaks in the exhaust system can affect O2 (Oxygen) storage in the converter and lead to improper O2 (Oxygen) Sensor readings, affecting the AFR (Air / Fuel Ratio) balance. Check all weld areas for cracks, especially O2 sensor ports.
Check all pipe connections for improper alignment or burnt gaskets.
Check all clamp connections for leaks.
Pay close attention to any flex-pipe in the system.

Oxygen Sensor Identification & Location; "...Regardless of how the engine is mounted in the vehicle, conventional or transverse, the HO2S naming convention stays the same in relationship to engine banks 1 and 2.
Bank 1 will always be the bank containing the #1 cylinder (Passenger Side).
Bank 2 is the driver's side. Sensor 1 is upstream sensor, between the engine & the catalytic converter.
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-14-2019, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickOille View Post
It is gonna be in a terrible limp home mode without input from an oxygen sensor. Usually turns the timing way back and the mixture way rich so you can’t really hurt the motor, but it will make no power
This.

Without the oxygen sensor in place, the computer can't tell if it's adding too much or too little fuel, so it simply goes on the safe side and adds too much since a too lean of mixture can damage the engine. The same goes with timing. Timing is based very closely on fuel mixture, and since it doesn't know what that is, it doesn't add any timing. You're stuck at 10° advance.
This is, as Nick said, LIMP mode. It's simply to get you back home so you can get the vehicle to the shop, and aren't stuck on the side of the road.

With a rich fuel mixture and no timing, it's going to be a dog.

I wouldn't do anything else until you get an oxygen sensor in place and wired up properly.
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-14-2019, 10:58 AM
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Yup, ran a 351 with no o2 sensor and it got poor mileage and wasnt very quick. New exhaust and installed the sensor and I instantly picked up 2mpg and some power.

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-14-2019, 02:55 PM
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@miesk5 put out a ton of good information, but the most important data about your code 212 is "Miesk5 NOTE; use BLACK CCD Ignition Modules in 94-96 Broncos". I had the same poor performance with my '94. The PO put in a gray ICM, and it took me a year or so to find it.
Check your ICM, insure it is BLACK. Many parts places have the wrong one in their computers (Advance Auto in the Detroit area for example). Pull your ICM and see if it is gray, if you have the wrong one, and the parts place tries to give you a gray one, ask them to give you one for a '96 302 Mustang. They should come back with a black one.
The spark advance signal goes through the ICM (Ignition Control Module), but it only works on a black module.
Get the correct tool to change the ICM, it will cost you $5-$6 and is worth the few dollars. This is a Lisle Ignition Module Wrench part 64650.
Clean off all the old heatsink compound from the heatsink (that's the aluminum finned thing the ICM attaches to), get new heatsink compound at Walmart or any computer store. ArcticSilver is expensive, but any generic heatsink compound will work (heatsink compound is used to help transfer the heat of the ICM to the heatsink to keep the ICM cool, which lengthens the life of the ICM). Put a thin layer on the heatsink and ICM, bolt it back down, and I'll bet that the 212 code will go away, and the machine will perform a hell of a lot better.
Good Luck!

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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 06:09 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Miesk,
Thank you for the amazing wealth of information. I read through it and there are still some things that I need to mention.
Before continuing; I took out the computer to check the capacitors (all look brand new, no leakage, no buldging, etc.) but saw that the connector to the computer was quite oxidated. I got a toothbrush and some contact spray and got to work.
After connecting, spout out, set timing to 10 degrees, put spout back in (this time with engine running) and it jumped like 4 degrees and I got my timing back! Havent read the codes yet.

Now I can continue my search.
I have new pistons, rings, had a valve-job, new gaskets, plugs, wires and I still have low compression on all cylinders. (110-115)

My ICM is the GREY one and I had already bought a BLACK one (mine does say Motorcraft) quickly changing it (sorry guys, no heatsink) and driving for 5 mins: no change in power.

Also: no O2 sensors anywhere in my exhaust. No CATs.

My computer type is also different than most I can find: F4TF-14A608-FA
On the internet it says that this type of ECM is for a setup with a MAP but my car doesnt have a MAP but a MAF!

Vacuum: measures great at the engine, but I think my vaccuum reserve (is that the correct name) is shot because going uphill my A/C does switch from mid to defrost...

Getting closer...

Will check for codes this weekend I hope!
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Love my '94 truck, but she's fighting me all the way... Hope to one day trust it enough to travel the country.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 06:45 PM
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with the black ICM in, did you check to see if there is any timing advance? it may not feel faster but that doesn't mean it didn't fix an issue. without an o2 sensor, it probably will run like crap. its a super common for people to replace it with the wrong one because msot auto parts stores have the wrong one listed

my current 96 had a grey ICM when i bought it. the PO must have replaced everything a couple times because it was all in a box in the back. he jsut advanced the timing to like ~30* and gave up. hard to start the engine but it accelerated hard
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 08:19 PM
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Trust me, you need an O2 sensor or it will never run right. Find the plug in your wiring harness where it used to be, and weld a bung into your exhaust for one. Or they make clamp on ones if you don’t have access to a welder.

Also, on the compression test did you have the throttle open? If the throttle blades are shut it won’t suck enough air in while cranking to give you a true reading on the compression test
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciakow2 View Post

Also: no O2 sensors anywhere in my exhaust. No CATs.
Sounds like you had a previous owner who thought that removing "all that emissions junk" would equal more power.

You have to have an O2 sensor for it to run right. There's just no real way around it unless you get some custom aftermarket controller.

There are a good number of no-weld options out there that you can do in your garage.

https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...WU0CwAQ8wIIrgM


Before anything else, get an O2 sensor in your system so that your computer can start managing the fuel and timing system. Otherwise, it's like trying to fix a leaking faucet when the valve is open.



As for the cats, I don't know about your particular year, but not having a cat can also set off the computer. You may need to install one as well to make it happy. Others might have better info on that.


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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 02:30 PM
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I think he will be fine without a cat. Pretty sure 94 only had a pre-cat O2 sensor, so it shouldn’t know the difference if it has a cat or not. At least my 93 is that way and it doesn’t mind not having a cat.
But again, O2 sensor is required, it’s not “emissions junk”
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 09:14 PM Thread Starter
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Guys,
Thanks a lot, I did buy an O2 sensor, but when I wanted to replace mine.... Well you guessed it.
Will look for the wiring, Miesk gave me a great diagram. Thanks a lot and I will reply ASAP.

Love my '94 truck, but she's fighting me all the way... Hope to one day trust it enough to travel the country.
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 12:13 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for replying guys.

Spoke with an old Ford mechanic and here the '94 never has O2 sensors so I am back at square 1.
Still havent checked if I have new codes, will do that, and will also change my grey ICM for a black one. (Changed them before without the cooling part, just to see if I could feel a difference but didnt feel it any difference.)

Anyone know anything about the computer references? Cant find too much on the web. I would think that this would reference to needing an O2 or not...


Quote:
Originally Posted by AbandonedBronco View Post
Sounds like you had a previous owner who thought that removing "all that emissions junk" would equal more power.

You have to have an O2 sensor for it to run right. There's just no real way around it unless you get some custom aftermarket controller.

There are a good number of no-weld options out there that you can do in your garage.

https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...WU0CwAQ8wIIrgM


Before anything else, get an O2 sensor in your system so that your computer can start managing the fuel and timing system. Otherwise, it's like trying to fix a leaking faucet when the valve is open.



As for the cats, I don't know about your particular year, but not having a cat can also set off the computer. You may need to install one as well to make it happy. Others might have better info on that.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 12:27 PM
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That just cannot be right.

I've never heard of any electronic fuel injection vehicle that didn't come with an O2 sensor. Even the computer controlled carburetor setup in my '84 Bronco used an O2 sensor.

The very basis of how an electronic fuel injection system works is completely based on what the sensor is reading. If it's too rich, the computer leans it out. If it's too lean, it richens the mixture up. It's making these calculations 100s of times a second to get your fuel mixture right. To do so, it has to have some "window" into what the mixture is, and the only way to do that is with a sensor.

It'll run without it, but only in "safety" mode, which is to dump extra fuel. But, it won't run correctly.

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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciakow2 View Post
Thanks for replying guys.

Spoke with an old Ford mechanic and here the '94 never has O2 sensors so I am back at square 1.
Still havent checked if I have new codes, will do that, and will also change my grey ICM for a black one. (Changed them before without the cooling part, just to see if I could feel a difference but didnt feel it any difference.)

Anyone know anything about the computer references? Cant find too much on the web. I would think that this would reference to needing an O2 or not...
I'm old too, but your old Ford mechanic is having memory problems. Look at the images below, pay particular attention to PCM pin 44. THAT'S THE O2 SENSOR!





https://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/907076
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How in the world are you going to fix it if you don’t know how it worked in the first place?
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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 04:28 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Woodstock, GA (Home)/Greensboro, NC (Work)
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Bronco Info: 95 5.8L XLT, Shorties, E4OD, Electric, Manual, KYB Quad Shocks , 31x10.5x15's, 285,000 miles
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You must believe in "FACT" not "Hear-Say". Everyone here is giving you FACT on O2 sensor(s), they/we deal with these vehicles everyday cause they/we DRIVE them and fix them. Your "Old Ford Mechanic" is experiencing Alzheimer's or was a Wannabe Mechanic from the start. Fact is Fact, 94 Broncos came with O2 sensor(s).
AbandonedBronco and Trashboat like this.
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  Ford Bronco Forum > Bronco Discussions > Noobie Bronco Tech Questions. Flame free zone!

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