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03-19-2019 08:01 AM
TS 90F150 I would have kept the factory engine management and went Fiveology Mass Air conversion. I don't see $900 for the Fitech being the cheaper alternative. But, as long as you like it and it works for you, that is what matters. I do strongly suspect the gains you saw from it and the heads would have been just as pleasing as the heads with the other intake and fuel injection.

To the Op, I think you understood my first post perfectly. But to clear up what may have been confusing to others, when I suggested a new set of connecting rods, I meant a 408" stroker rotating assembly. If, you decide to stick with the stock rotating assembly, the factory crank is going to be the best choice. The stock rods will be fine. If you select new pistons (even if you don't) I'd have the rotating assembly balanced.

Heads, intake, cam, exhaust and torque converter will make the most improvements for what you want. Fiveology is a good group to work with. Fairly helpful and supportive. Most of the engineering behind this type of conversion has R&D from Ford itself. Can't see it not being CARB compliant as that is part of why it was changed in the last years of the trucks and broncos.

hth
tim
03-18-2019 10:09 AM
BigBlue 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCG74 View Post
Just curious...have you owned a FiTech? Had bad experiences with their products? Please tell me you have a hands on experience to justify your calling them junk. Not just for justification, but also because Iím curious about any failures people are having. Also, I am running it exactly how I said itís set up & my tags are current.
I have second hand experience... long time Chevy hotrodder couldn't get his FiTech to run the LS he was using. Even paid someone else to investigate, and they couldn't find an answer. Ended up ditching it for I believe a Holley Sniper which worked.
03-18-2019 08:14 AM
JCG74
Quote:
Originally Posted by decipha View Post
yes plenty experience I have a speed shop here in new orleans. I always defer those that insist on fitech to stick with upgraded stock ecu's since the fitech just does not have enough control to meet my personal demands. For someone that just drives and doesn't actually pay attention to the minor nuisances that engines make its not a big deal. But for someone that wants ultimate control and is obsessive over the very fine details it just doesn't fit the bill. I find the dashpot control alone to be lacking significantly and that in itself prevents me from using it or recommending it. If and only IF they had adequate dashpot control I may consider it an entry level ecu but its just not there yet.
I follow ya. Is your opinion of the Holley Sniper the same? Im not an engine guru, know the basics, and learn as I go while depending on a shop to do all my work that’s over my head. A lot of guys are running these FiTechs on their race trucks now and swear by them, which is how I was talked into it to begin with (by some of them). I always find it interesting how the difference in opinions can be so vast. 👍🏻
03-18-2019 02:19 AM
decipha yes plenty experience I have a speed shop here in new orleans. I always defer those that insist on fitech to stick with upgraded stock ecu's since the fitech just does not have enough control to meet my personal demands. For someone that just drives and doesn't actually pay attention to the minor nuisances that engines make its not a big deal. But for someone that wants ultimate control and is obsessive over the very fine details it just doesn't fit the bill. I find the dashpot control alone to be lacking significantly and that in itself prevents me from using it or recommending it. If and only IF they had adequate dashpot control I may consider it an entry level ecu but its just not there yet.
03-17-2019 10:31 PM
JCG74
Quote:
Originally Posted by decipha View Post
fitech is junk and he can't run it anyway since he has to maintain CA emissions (which is the USA emissions standard now)

Best bet is to just leave the engine alone for now other than taking care of any maintenance. Fab up a turbo kit. All you need is a 70mm turbo. Check out the on3 kits for cheaper decent turbos. Could probably even modify one of their kits to make it a touch easier possibly.

You'd be looking $600 to get your ecu programmed with custom code to control the turbo correctly and still run on 87 octane. It will far exceed the fitech and run better than stock.
Online/Remote Tune - EFIDynoTuning
Just curious...have you owned a FiTech? Had bad experiences with their products? Please tell me you have a hands on experience to justify your calling them junk. Not just for justification, but also because I’m curious about any failures people are having. Also, I am running it exactly how I said it’s set up & my tags are current.

The one I’m running works like a dream. Plus, I can now add boost which is my next upgrade this summer. A Vortech V3.

If there’s any doubt in FiTech setup, one could always go with the Holley Sniper...I believe.

To the OP, do whatever you want. You’ll find that so many think they have the best answer for you. What works for one, may not be what satisfies you, or some one else for that matter.

My opinion though is the stock 5.8 upper/lower intake and heads are junk and a major choke point. I swapped mine out for a new Edelbrock Truck Performer Upper/Lower, port matched the upper to a 61mm BBK Throttle Body, did the 6 liter tune up, etc... and still could barely notice any gains. After the AFR 165’s (they do have smog legal heads), the twin air gap, & FiTech, she now sucks me back in the seat which I love. The heads will make you smile. Even if you ran them with the Eddy Truck Performer. By the way, I haven’t even touched the cam yet. I’m not a fan of turbos on gas engines. On my diesel pickups it’s fine, but hate the lag. It’s not instant like a super charger. Also, you are speed density, as was I, Which is why I went FiTech. After pricing everything from Fiveology, etc, etc, the FiTech for a little over $900 was much easier on the pocket book.

Good luck with what ever you choose and most of all have fun. It’s a bronco and that’s what it’s all about!👍🏻
03-17-2019 03:11 PM
StevenP I briefly looked into boosting the bronco, @decipha . I'm not sure I want to open that can of worms, but I'll take a look at the link you gave me, who knows maybe they'll sell me on it.. I do have a Focus RS for when I want to spool and get sucked back in the seat :)
03-17-2019 03:07 PM
StevenP Thanks for your inquiry @ragtop69 , I too asked myself similar questions. He did not have receipts, I think it was a very budget/garage build with his dad, and it leaks a lot from the top and bottom end, so I'm guessing they didn't do the best work. It does run ok and it feels pretty good with the 4.88 gearing, but I'm concerned with the quality of the PO's rebuild due to the leaks, a little more vibration than I think a fairly fresh should have, and the poor mileage (7-9 in town and 11 highway, at best). I have not done a CR test, but probably should teach myself how to do that.

My original thought was indeed to drive this engine till it wanted to give out, but now that I found a good deal on some performance parts and have accrued a ton of replacement parts for other engine related stuff I'm thinking it might be the right time here soon, basically I'm going to have it so stripped down to put all the replacement stuff/performance parts on it would only take a little bit more to pull it.

I wish I had a garage and some more tools to do some of the work myself and learn hands on about the whole process, but I don't have a proper space to house a rebuild, so I'd have a machine shop do the work. My plan is start calling machine shops here shortly when funds are ready to get serious, for now I'm just trying to learn as much as I can so I feel I can understand the conversation with a machine shop.

P.s. I grew up about 45 minutes up I-80 from Lincoln :)
03-17-2019 02:48 PM
ragtop69 If the PO said that the engine had been rebuilt 15,000 miles ago, why are you going to rebuild it again? Did he have any receipts? Who did the rebuild? Did you have the engine's condition checked when you bought the Bronco? Is the CR relatively normal for all cylinders? Why not just ride this particular pony until it drops dead and then consider what to choose in your necessary rebuild/replacement? Also, are you going to do the rebuild yourself or use a machine shop to do a short block? They should be able to recommend a cam, rods and pistons. When I had my 302 in my '69 Mustang rebuilt, the local machine shop did the shorty ($800 bored .040 over) and I reassembled the top of the engine myself. At the time I found GT40P heads that came assembled with Motorsport roller rockers, custom tri-Y headers and a single profile Comp Cam (.224 duration/.050 lift) with a 351W firing order. The machine shop used KB flat tops and did an external balance. The machinist was unhappy about using the cam I handed him because he was going to provide one himself, but the resulting rebuild took about .7 sec off my quarter mile times and the old girl will rev to 6,000 rpm without a problem. BTW, it has a 9.5:1 CR and pings on anything less than CA 91 octane premium.
03-17-2019 02:49 AM
decipha fitech is junk and he can't run it anyway since he has to maintain CA emissions (which is the USA emissions standard now)

Best bet is to just leave the engine alone for now other than taking care of any maintenance. Fab up a turbo kit. All you need is a 70mm turbo. Check out the on3 kits for cheaper decent turbos. Could probably even modify one of their kits to make it a touch easier possibly.

You'd be looking $600 to get your ecu programmed with custom code to control the turbo correctly and still run on 87 octane. It will far exceed the fitech and run better than stock.
Online/Remote Tune - EFIDynoTuning
03-16-2019 05:34 PM
BigBlue 94 The DCR for a 300 to run on pump gas maxes out about 7.5. Premium pump can allow a small tolerance there too. I would assume the 351 to be similar. My SCR was around 10 and it really liked premium, but 87 was okay in winter. Every cam will give you a different DCR with all else remaining the same. Some will boost that DCR ceiling and allow pump gas to run fine at say a 7.75 DCR when 7.5 is the usual max.

Deck clearancing is a matter of achieving compression and cleaning up the deck surface. You generally want a clearance of 0 to .040". Zero means the top of the piston is level with the deck at TDC. .040" is the piston sitting forty thousandths in the bore. Negative means the piston comes up higher than the deck and you dont want that for a street engine. For a performance build at .030 overbore you want to leave about .005" on the deck above the pistons. This gives you room to flatten the deck on a subsequent rebuild. My 300 at .060" is on its last build, so it's down to a zero deck.

BTW, my build impressed a mopar buddy's ass-seat-dynomometer. He's used to 440s. Not a bad feat for a brick on stilts haha.

You want torque? My 351 pulled a 64 Chevy out that had been sitting so long the axles and half of every wheel were buried in the driveway dirt. It was essentially sitting on the frame. Oh and I was pulling on gravel
03-16-2019 03:55 PM
StevenP Right on and congrats on completion @JCG74 , I'll check it out on the gram
03-16-2019 03:44 PM
JCG74 I just finished installing AFR 165 Heads, a Edelbrock Air Gap Intake, and ditched the 5.8 Intake and ECM. Installed a FiTech Power Adder 600. Huge noticeable gains mid range and top end. Doesn’t down shift up highway/mountain grades anymore. I don’t tow, but am very very pleased with this setup. It sounds like a monster now also. You can see/hear it on my Instagram page oldollor89 or OL’DDOLLOR89.
03-16-2019 01:13 PM
StevenP @BigBlue 94 This is something I'm not sure I understand well enough to properly answer, as I was pretty much just playing around with the numbers until I got to a SCR and DCR I thought would be happy with pump gas. Based off what I read about octane ratings and SCR/DCR ratios, it seems there is a lot more that comes into play as some guys said they were running really high compression ratios on pump gas, and others said to keep it low if you wanted to use pump gas, I went the conservative route and tried to keep things fairly low.. The calculations I was seeing to get me in that range were a deck clearance of 0 to -0.02/-0.03 (using 4.03 bore, 3.5 stroke, 5.955-6.2 con rods, afr 165s, .042 gasket thickness, 4.1 gasket bore ((felpro gasket specs)) and the 512 cam). These gave me SCRs of around 9.7-10.6 and DCRs of around 7.2-7.7. I'm just not 100% sure how I dial all of that in, is deck clearance determined by the internals or by machining, or by both? Heres a screen shot of the example I gave you last night.



And here's is a random screen shot of a deck clearance calculation I just did while typing this response.



I would be totally fine dropping 5-6k on the project if it nets me something super torquey that runs on pump gas, passes smog, and is going to last. Hopefully I don't have to come out to your shop in Kansas for that, prices for everything here in California are out of control lol.
03-16-2019 10:24 AM
BigBlue 94 What DCR does the 351 like and still run pump gas? I imagine the 7.2 would be fine. Depending on temp, I could even run 87.

The $3500 was just the shop bill. However, I had quite a bit done by my machinist that you may not have to do. I have $5000 plus in it.

Aside from the usual processes, he did the following;
Connecting rods bushed for smaller pins
Connecting rods set up for studs
Mains setup for studs, which necessarily includes line honing.
Crank ground, straightened, and reground.
Larger valves put in, and bowls milled out larger
Rocker pedestals milled and setup with studs
Measure and install new pushrods

He had a lot of work in my odd-duck 300, and said it was a bit of a challenge.
03-16-2019 05:23 AM
StevenP @BigBlue 94 Thank you for your response and the link. I've been geeking out on DCR and SCR calculators now haha, still have to try and grasp a deeper understanding of it all, but I've punched in lots of numbers and think I have a pretty solid idea of what I need to be looking for at least with the 512 cam (9.9:1 SCR and 7.2:1 DCR with 15cc pistons and the afr 165s, that's with deck clearance at 0, not sure if that's good/bad/impossible.. I need to read more on that), I'll look at some others tomorrow. I'd definitely be opting to have the shop do all the installation, I just don't have a proper place to do it at the moment unfortunately. So the 3500 you said you walked out for, was that the machine shop bill or for EVERYTHING including what you brought to them?

@CrazyBRONCOguy Thank you as well, I've come across Coast High Performance in my browsing, but I think they'd be a bit more than I am I looking to spend based off their crate engine costs, but I reckon its worth a call to see if I'm wrong. I figure some fuel upgrades are going to be mandatory, especially since I'll likely go MAF, when I spoke with Fiveology he also mentioned it'd be a good idea to get larger injectors, but he didn't mention a pump, thanks for bringing that to my attention, it makes perfect sense.

I have so much more to learn, but am really enjoying the process (even if it is slow for me lol). Thanks again to everyone who has chimed in and broadened my scope here.
03-10-2019 12:38 PM
CrazyBRONCOguy Coast High Performance is out in cali, they are known good source for Ford engines.
https://www.coasthigh.com/
They likely could build you a long block that matches what you are wanting to do. The long block would have cam and heads installed so all the valve train and such would be already figured out.

I have a similar 351 in my 92, though I did not build it with Cali emissions in mind. I do think you may need to look at doing a set of injectors, and also a fuel pump upgrade. This will make the MAF swap all that more important, due to being able to easily tune it. You may consider also upgrading the MAF meter to better match the CFM requirements of your new combo. Though it may not matter much except at the upper rpm range of the engine.

I do feel 165's are the correct choice in this application, it is what I went with on mine. I choose to replace the stock rods with an H-Beam design as the intention was to be able to turn 5-6k rpm all day long. I also started with a '72 block so bit different then your roller truck block. The stock crank in a 5.8 is a nice piece, likely just a good machining will be all yours needs. Then get everything balanced together. However the cost of doing all this will likely be at the stroker kit cost as well.

Everyone that has commented so far is giving good advice too. Just be mindful if looking for engine info from mustang sources that group typically does not care so much about keep the curve to the left.
03-10-2019 11:30 AM
BigBlue 94 Ditch the rotating assembly. You dont need it.

Have your machinist determine how much he needs to bore out the cylinders. Then you can decide on parts.

Cam should be the first item bought. It determines how high of a compression you can run. Mine liked 89 octane, but would run on 87.

As you may know, my engine knowledge currently is about the 300 i6, haven't built a v8 since my 351. I chose a cam with 280į advertised duration. This gave me a STATIC compression range to be able to run pump gas. My SCR is 7.49 to 1. That's as high as I can go with my cam and still use pump gas. However the SCR is not the common number given as a compression ratio. DYNAMIC compression is what you normally see. My DCR is 9.75:1 using 15cc dishes pistons and a zero height deck. This means the pistons at TDC are right at the top of their bores.

The factory 351 pistons are a 22cc dish. For your purposes, a 15 or so cc dish piston would be good, with a zero decked block. This brings up a thing called quench. Quench is the area above the piston that doesnt match up directly with the combustion chamber, because the chambers are not hemispherical. Imagine a capital D sitting on a capital O and you see theres that little flat spot from the D shaped chambers. That's the quench area and it should be around 40-50 thou from the head to the piston. This creates better fuel burn. My 300 pistons are actually 351 sportsman N pistons. They have a step on one edge that is higher than the dished surface. This mates up with the quench area on my head and gives me exactly .039 quench distance.

You need to do the SCR and DCR math with the comp 512 cam and any others you like. Determine which one works best with the compression ratio you want to run. Then find a piston and deck height that gives you that compression ratio. The flow of the heads, intake, and exhaust have no bearing on this decision.

Once you decide on compression ratio and final displacement, you can decide how big of heads you need. Here's a good article on that

https://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2003/02/afr/


Lastly, I'm not saying anything bad about my FSB brothers, but this isn't the best forum for engine technical knowledge. For my big six, Fordsix.com helped in ways I never even thought about thinking of. Lucky for you, the SBF is a very common engine that even most machinists have done hundreds, if not thousands of. My machinist can count the number of 300s he's done on one hand. Look at machinist reviews online. Find a couple you like and go talk to them. Tell them what you are building and what you want to do. Also look at their shop and employees for general cleanliness and organization. Mine had zero other employees and a shop you could eat off the floor of. You dont want a dirty shop with super greaseball workers. Some grease is good, not grease everywhere. Keep in mind, what kind of machine shop is it? Race, street rod, daily driver, etc are all different feels you can get by looking at what they build. My guy is a diehard chevy drag racer who also rebuilds 500ci semi truck diesels and 2.2L 4bangers. He's done 900 hp NA magazine quality builds, 390 FEs, BBF, BBM, sleeved boosted 4bangers, 351s, and stuff for the local Chevy dealer. Find a guy who is passionate about engines, and not doing it just for the employment. He will build a better engine.

This brings me to what you should have the machinist do. You should have him assemble the shortblock at the least. That will leave you with measuring, ordering and installing the new pushrods and adjusting the valvetrain. Some people are not comfortable with that and prefer to have the machinist do it. I had mine assembled as a shortblock plus complete head, including rockers and pushrods. I did this because I didnt have the room to work on it to that extent.

For machining and all the stuff he did, including putting larger valves in my head and straightening the crank, I walked out the door for $3500. I provided the stud, pistons, cam, rings, valves, rockers, gaskets, and oil pump. He bought the bearings, pushrods, valve springs, and other incidentals.
03-09-2019 09:13 PM
StevenP Thanks @84FSB . I'll check out that calculator and play around a bit with it. I'll definitely take your suggestions into my conversations with prospective machine shops. Hopefully I'll be able to find one locally that I feel comfortable with and they'll be able to help me dial in exactly what needs to be done, as you said, for my particular block. Thanks for the info on the oil pump and the oil pump drive shaft as well, I had no idea they were lacking in strength.

Also, @TS 90F150 , I just spoke with fiveology and we discussed the MAF swap and CA emissions, I'm pretty much sold on it now that I know its a non-issue. He said about 20% of their sales are in California, and over the past 15 years or so he can think of 2-3 customers who had issues with smog and simply had to try another shop, where ultimately they passed. I'll still probably stick with a mild cam, but I'll have to look into cams again and see what new options are open to me if I do decide to go MAF (which I'm heavily leaning towards now).
03-09-2019 02:42 AM
84FSB I dont think you need a rotating assembly. a stock bottom end rebuild kit would work, you should be able to reuse your crank and connecting rods,but thats something your machinist will let you know

you can up the compression a little with aluminum heads, 9.5:1 should be safe on 87. im running 9.0:1 on iron heads on 87 with no ping.

use this Engine Compression Ratio (CR) Calculator and do the math to figure out which pistons you need to use. you will need to know bore size and stroke length, head gasket bore diameter,head gasket compressed thickness. the combustion chamber cc's of the cylinder heads you intend to use,and piston deck clearance. then you can plug in the different piston head volume to get the desired compression ratio. with 58cc heads you will be looking at dish pistons

have your machinist check the block to see if you need a bore,and how much. have them look at the deck to make sure its straight. have them line hone it and also put in new camshaft bearings and check the crank and rods. they will be able to guide you toward what your particular block needs done

I also wouldn't use a high volume oil pump. the stock volume pump will be good for a fresh engine,and it helps keep stress off the oil pump driveshaft. you should get an aftermarket oil pump driveshaft,like this ARP one, they are weak on small block fords. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/a...view/make/ford

you will also need hardened pushrods for the roller rockers.(i think make sure of that)
03-08-2019 11:56 PM
StevenP @TS 90F150 Thanks a ton for your reply and sharing your experience!

I like the "buy once. cry once" line, and I think it basically sums up my mentality on this rebuild. With that said, I do think I'll probably be buying pistons, and have been looking at rotating assemblies that include the crank, rods, pistons, etc. Now I just have to try and figure out once and for all if I can actually stroke this legally in CA. I've done some engine shop hunting and found a couple places that look worthy of my cash, so I'm going to give them a ring and ask them if stroking it out to 408 is possible with CA emissions. I think I was trying to figure out too much all at once when I initially posted this thread, its not like I will be doing the actual building of it (unfortunately, I'd love to but don't have the space nor equipment to tackle that learning experience), so I will consult with some builders and see what my best option is.

As for a MAF swap, I haven't researched enough to know for sure, but CA smog seems to make things way more difficult than they should be. I'm not 100% sure but it looks like I'd have to track down a different EEC than the fiveology kit has, the EEC I best suited for me here in CA seems to the BIO0 (comes from a 1995 CA 5.8l MAF truck), and the cheapest one available at the moment is 400, others are around 700, so putting together a kit with that EEC would be close to 1000 dollars unless I start hunting the junkyards and get really really lucky. I'll probably just stay SD for now, but I have sent an email to fiveology to discuss the smog legalities of their kit for a CA build. We shall see..

Looks like I need to start reading up on torque converters :)
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