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AbandonedBronco 08-04-2019 07:51 PM

130 amp 3G with v-belts
 
Hi all,

I just finished a 3G install into my '85 and can't seem to find a belt routing that gives enough grip to the alternator to keep it from squealing horribly.

I can see the voltage on my Holley Sniper handset, and while it's squealing, I'm getting 12v. If it ever stops, if just for a few seconds, voltage climbs up to 13 to 14 (at least I know it's working), but it doesn't last very long.


I have a 2 groove pulley on both my alternator and power steering pump, but unfortunately, both use the back 2 grooves on my 3 groove harmonic balancer. The front groove is for the A/C only.

I tried dual large 62" belts that went around both the alternator and PS pump, but it left way too little surface area on the balancer that it squealed so loud I thought it was going to burn the belts off (they were pretty hot).

I just can't seem to find a setup that has enough grip on the alternator to get it to work. I can if I leave the PS belt off, but that's no long term solution.

Any ideas?

SRWillis 08-04-2019 09:44 PM

I posted this in your Charging issues thread, but thought I'd post it here also.

I highly encourage a soft-start regulator for your 3G. It is the white colored one. I don't know if it will stop the belt squealing issues completely, but it should help. See these threads for info on this: 3G Regulator difference? and alternator/belt squeal

Here are some of the part numbers for the regulator: FORD F4ZU-10316-AC, F4ZZ-10316-A, FORD GR814, Visteon ALT-C-066
Manufacturer Part Number:
Ford F4RU-10316-AA, F4ZU-10316-AA

The one I have (not a Motorcraft) has the numbers F795 on it.

SRWillis 08-04-2019 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbandonedBronco (Post 7231458)
I have a 2 groove pulley on both my alternator and power steering pump, but unfortunately, both use the back 2 grooves on my 3 groove harmonic balancer. The front groove is for the A/C only.

I tried dual large 62" belts that went around both the alternator and PS pump, but it left way too little surface area on the balancer that it squealed so loud I thought it was going to burn the belts off (they were pretty hot).

I just can't seem to find a setup that has enough grip on the alternator to get it to work. I can if I leave the PS belt off, but that's no long term solution.

Any ideas?

I'm not running AC at this time, so what I did was space the PS pump bracket out 3/4" to use the front pulley so I could use both rear pulleys to drive the alternator.

https://live.staticflickr.com/4482/2...31ef2b26_z.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/4468/3...a7a4992a_z.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/4481/3...b90a3695_z.jpg

AbandonedBronco 08-05-2019 10:47 AM

Thanks for the pics, much appreciated.

I thought about moving the pump forward, but with the Saginaw, it's a bit more complicated since there's a bracket on the backside too that bolts to the side of the block.

However, I found that my alternator belt was cracked and chunked, so I bought a new belt.

As of now, I have it completely squeal free and working with only a single belt. I'd still like to get a second belt on there, but for now it's drivable!

AbandonedBronco 08-05-2019 10:51 AM

So, this is what I was originally trying.

This picture is a lot older, but gives the basic idea. As of now, my power steering pump has 2 grooves on it, since when I was getting the pump pulley swapped, the guy at O'Reilly's used the wrong puller and destroyed my single groove. So, now I have 2 grooves for both the alternator and PS.

https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/...2-19.09.45.jpg

I tried 2 belts in this configuration (like the middle belt that goes around both the alternator and PS), but it didn't work. It squealed really really bad. I'm assuming since it just rests on the top and bottom of the water pump and harmonic balancer pulleys, instead of going around them. I was hoping that'd work.

You can kinda see how the Saginaw is set up too.

AbandonedBronco 08-05-2019 10:54 AM

This is now my current configuration:


https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/...0-17.45.29.jpg

https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/...2-14.34.54.jpg

A single belt for the alternator (back), single belt for the power steering pump (middle), and single belt for the A/C (front).



I'm wondering if I could get the PS forward enough, if I could run a single belt around the A/C and PS.

BigBlue 94 08-05-2019 11:31 AM

Can you run the PS and AC off the front pulley? My sag fit on without spacers in the front most groove on the WP pulley.

https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/...731_182210.jpg

SRWillis 08-05-2019 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbandonedBronco (Post 7231692)
Thanks for the pics, much appreciated.

I thought about moving the pump forward, but with the Saginaw, it's a bit more complicated since there's a bracket on the backside too that bolts to the side of the block.

However, I found that my alternator belt was cracked and chunked, so I bought a new belt.

As of now, I have it completely squeal free and working with only a single belt. I'd still like to get a second belt on there, but for now it's drivable!

No problem. I forgot you did the Sag swap, I see what you mean...

Since it's squeal-free with the new single belt, I would leave it set up like that and get a soft start regulator and maybe it will stay that way:thumbup

:2cent

AbandonedBronco 08-05-2019 11:52 AM

That's exactly what I'm trying to go for, Sam.

I wonder what makes the difference. My original pulley lined up with the middle groove. Now that I have a double pulley on the PS, they line up with the back 2, like the alternator.

I would think that if I could get the PS forward, running a single belt around the water pump, harmonic balancer, A/C, and PS wouldn't be an issue, and that'd put the two needed belts onto the alternator.

Big question is how to get the pulley forward.
Can you take a picture of your pulley from a straight down view (side profile) view?

Mine is basically this one, with a 2nd pulley behind it.

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b...p+pulley&pos=4

You have me really curious about your setup now. Is your sag mounted differently maybe?

AbandonedBronco 08-05-2019 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SRWillis (Post 7231730)
No problem. I forgot you did the Sag swap, I see what you mean...

Since it's squeal-free with the new single belt, I would leave it set up like that and get a soft start regulator and maybe it will stay that way:thumbup

:2cent

I might look into that. I saw the part number listed on one of the links you provided.

I'll also look into a better belt. This is just a cheapie $2.99 belt to see if I could get it to work. A high quality Gates or something would last a lot longer, and have some better grip.

BigBlue 94 08-05-2019 12:23 PM

I'll get pics tonight. I'm running the best belts I could buy at Advance. I believe they are Gates' top cog style.

Once you glaze a belt, its trash, and the pulley may need scuffing to remove the belt glazing.

AbandonedBronco 08-05-2019 01:54 PM

Fortunately, the belt wasn't glazed. Just smooth. And numerous "teeth" on the belt had torn off, as well as cracks between them. It was the belt's time no matter the scenario.

But yes, I'll be ordering some new belts. Rockauto seems to have a good number of them on wholesaler closeout for just a couple bucks.

AbandonedBronco 08-05-2019 08:06 PM

Well, I still need to come up with a good solution. It was slipping about half the way home, and I could smell rubber off and on. Just not enough grip.
It was about 10x worse if I turned the A/C on.

Going to go look things over and see if I can come up with some way to get a PS groove on the front pulley.
BigBlue, definitely curious how yours is set up, since you have a Saginaw on the front groove.
Are there any part numbers on your pulley by chance?

AbandonedBronco 08-05-2019 09:57 PM

Ok, I think I have it figured out.

Apparently, non A/C trucks have a different power steering pump pulley than A/C trucks do.

A/C trucks put the power steering pump on the middle pulley. Non-A/C put it on the front pulley.

Look how recessed the snout is on the PS pulley:
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/8...e/img_3084.jpg

This is a picture of my old '84. Hard to see with the radiator hose in the way, but again, recessed, and on close inspection, you can see the belt is going to the front pulley.

https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/...e/img_3869.jpg

https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/...e/img_3870.jpg


I must've at some point been baffled by the belt change after I did my Saginaw pump, since I took this picture. You can also see the snout of the PS pulley sticking out.

https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/...8-12.04.49.jpg

Even the original Ford manual depicts this. Non-A/C, the PS uses the front pulley. A/C, the A/C uses the front pulley and the PS uses the middle. The alternator on the AC setup is relegated to only 1 groove, whereas the Non-A/C got two.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...c2043c068a.png


So, I just need to track down a non-A/C power steering pump pulley (which is not available online that I can find) and pull it. Should be a few in the junk yard.

I6-Kid 08-05-2019 10:01 PM

@AbandonedBronco I have the same setup as you, and have thought about swapping to a serpentine setup, my only hold-up being that I would have to ditch my York A/C compressor. However, I only get a short squeal on start-up, and no squeal any other time, along with 14V+ at all times, which should be fixed easily once I upgrade to the soft-start regulator.

A serp setup would also eliminate the need for 2-3 belts, and simplify the engine compartment look if that appeals to you

AbandonedBronco 08-05-2019 10:07 PM

Yeah, I'm starting to contemplate a serpentine belt setup. There's definitely some appeal. But in the mean time, I don't have the funds to do it, and I have to get to work. I'm driving my 30 minute commute tomorrow with the Power Steering disconnected as it is. :toothless.

It'd be interesting to look at what all is involved though.

I6-Kid 08-05-2019 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbandonedBronco (Post 7232060)
Yeah, I'm starting to contemplate a serpentine belt setup. There's definitely some appeal. But in the mean time, I don't have the funds to do it, and I have to get to work. I'm driving my 30 minute commute tomorrow with the Power Steering disconnected as it is. :toothless.

It'd be interesting to look at what all is involved though.

The biggest thing required (besides the brackets) is changing to a reverse water pump, otherwise everything can be sourced from a junkyard from what I've found

SRWillis 08-05-2019 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I6-Kid (Post 7232062)
The biggest thing required (besides the brackets) is changing to a reverse water pump, otherwise everything can be sourced from a junkyard from what I've found

I believe you're correct, then of coarse the reverse water pump will require the matching fan. I picked all the brackets off an 89 and hoping to convert over this winter. The only other thing I think I will need is an 8.25" ear spacing 3G.

BigBlue 94 08-06-2019 09:59 AM

My mower threw the hydro pump belt last night so I forgot to take pics in my frustration. My pulley is the short snout IIRC.

AbandonedBronco 08-06-2019 11:17 AM

Ouch! No worries. Sounds like you had your hands full.
Hopefully you got it fixed.


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