['84Bro]

Couldn’t find anything on this topic in a search. At any speed over 35mph my Bronco feels like a boat in water, example, if I turn to avoid a pothole and turn LT to RT or RT to LT the Bronco will begin to rock violently back and forth (like a boat in water) until I back off the throttle and then it will settle down. I have installed 4 new shocks and had an alignment and it still reacts the same though it has lessened to some extent with the new shocks. (I do have a bad camber bushing on the rt front, they couldn't get it off so I still have a slight pull to the rt, have ordered new upper and lower ball joints, coil springs and cam bushings for both sides) :banghead I spoke with an old Ford wrencher who said he thinks I'm experiencing "wheel hop" (anyone heard of this term?) and he can't recall what the fix is for it other than replacing the radius arm bushings. I know this course of action, just replacing front end parts (I call it Easter egg hunting), without knowing the cause could get expensive pretty quick. Any direction in the issue would be very welcoming, I don't mind spending money to fix this issue just don't want to throw money at it.
Thanks,'84Bro

 

[AbandonedBronco]

What have you done with your suspension? It's possible that it's just worn out. New tie rod ends, sway bar bushings, and shocks all around could remedy that quickly.

 

[Northernguy]

What kind of shocks?

 

[Gene1219]

What condition are your tires in? Are they old (there's a date code on your tire by week and year 3207 would be 32nd week of 2007) Are they filled up properly?

As far as wheel hop, it may be a different term than what it's normally for that you mechanic is using, but that more relates to the drag racing suspension issue. Like in the movie Bullet with steve McQueen. When he backs up and lights up the tires; the back tire bounces up and down like a basket ball.

 

[thin blue line]

sounds little springs and suspension is wore out. do you have swaybars?????? you need to check everything related to suspension.

 

[Steve83]

...had an alignment and it still reacts the same... (I do have a bad camber bushing on the rt front, they couldn't get it off so I still have a slight pull to the rt, have ordered new upper and lower ball joints, coil springs and cam bushings for both sides)

Hold it... An alignment shop charged you for an alignment when there was THAT MUCH $#!+ wrong with your front end??? Industry standard for any professional alingment tech is to inspect the whole suspension & steering system FIRST, and only proceed after everything is fixed.

...he thinks I'm experiencing "wheel hop" (anyone heard of this term?)

It's a real term, but it has nothing to do with the front suspension or steering. Wheel hop is caused by axle wrap, which only occurs with leaf springs.

Your problem is either loose/worn suspension/steering linkage, or a worn-out steering box. Read this caption:

 

['84Bro]

On Lunch break at WK so gotta make this quick while the boss is out.
Gentlemen, thanks you for your replies, so we are all on the same page a little background...My Bro has had about a half dozen PO b4 I got it, it has spent time in WVA, NC, and most resent N.GA where I purchased it last Nov., I wanted this Bro because it had the engine I wanted, 4.9 300. The body is very cancerous but from all my ckg and banging w/a hammer the frame appears solid. I knew going in that the body would need much attention so I'm wkg on getting the mechanical parts sound b4 moving on to the body.
I'm having issues posting pics, gotta spend a little time to get that figured out.

What have you done with your suspension? It's possible that it's just worn out. New tie rod ends, sway bar bushings, and shocks all around could remedy that quickly.

AbBro, I have done nothing to cause this issue I'm having, as far as I can tell I believe I'm still running the OE, so yes, I gather that the most of the front end parts are worn out, just trying to conclude which part will cure this issue...unless it a combo of all.

What kind of shocks?

What condition are your tires in? Are they old (there's a date code on your tire by week and year 3207 would be 32nd week of 2007) Are they filled up properly?

I have a set of used 32x11.5, the Bro will ride smooth and vibration free for the most part, I can tell they are used tires 'cause they are not worn to my Bro, 40psi in all 4. Once I get it Mechanically sound its new rubber all around.

As far as wheel hop, it may be a different term than what it's normally for that you mechanic is using, but that more relates to the drag racing suspension issue. Like in the movie Bullet with steve McQueen. When he backs up and lights up the tires; the back tire bounces up and down like a basket ball.

To clarify the "Wheel Hop" term...the old wrencher stated problems related to the front wheels going up and down causing the trk to rock...

sounds little springs and suspension is wore out. do you have swaybars?????? you need to check everything related to suspension.

Yes, just trying to find out which part of the suspension will cure this issue, I may have to piece meal replacing all the suspension parts. Any write up or direction and what to CK and how to go about it?

Hold it... An alignment shop charged you for an alignment when there was THAT MUCH $#!+ wrong with your front end??? Industry standard for any professional alingment tech is to inspect the whole suspension & steering system FIRST, and only proceed after everything is fixed.It's a real term, but it has nothing to do with the front suspension or steering. Wheel hop is caused by axle wrap, which only occurs with leaf springs.

Your problem is either loose/worn suspension/steering linkage, or a worn-out steering box. Read this caption:

Steve83, Your absolutely rt, I replace the shocks and went for the alignment, when I was told of the worn cam bushing I stated replace it, they could not remove it even after heating it up, I asked how can it be removed and was told that the upper ball joint would need to be removed and would most likely be damaged in the process so it would need replaced to, and if you do the upper...do the lower...and should do both sides...coil springs too...can you see where this was going. I was not prepared for forgo this expense (I had just dropped $600 on a set of tires for my Brides '99 Stang) so, I said just align it the best you can and I'll be back when I have the funds. Really appreciate the links you have supplied, they are so info rich I feel like it’s Christmas every time I view them.


Again, thanks for all your replies, I have no problem puttin the wrench time in on this Bro, I lone range it so, even what may seem simple to those of you with great experience is a bit time consuming for me, plus it’s my DD so, when its down I have to plan my WK, my job does afford my 4 - 6 days off so it’s doable...I'm savvy with a wrench but at times ignorant to some things like the front suspension...any direction in what parts and how to ck and what to look for is great.

 

[Steve83]

...the worn cam bushing...

Camber bushings don't wear - they don't move, and nothing moves against them. Other parts wear, causing the need to change to a different bushing to return to the correct camber angle. But another option is aftermarket adjustable camber cams, which never need to be replaced again.

.

...they could not remove it even after heating it up, I asked how can it be removed and was told that the upper ball joint would need to be removed...

They're either incompetent, or lying. The cam has to come out before the BJ can be removed. And the way to release a seized cam is to back off the nut, and drive. It might take a day or two with FREQUENT checking, but eventually, the vibrations, impacts, & tapered shape will cause the bushing to slide up against the nut again, exposing the area that used to be inside the knuckle.

...would most likely be damaged in the process so it would need replaced to, and if you do the upper...do the lower...and should do both sides...coil springs too...

Doing the lower BJ while doing the upper makes sense, but since the whole steering knuckle has to come apart FIRST (see the NEXT several pics from that first thumb in this post), and since none of that is necessary to change the cam, again: incompetence or lie. And the coil springs are strictly a lie - if they're not sagging or broken, they never need to be replaced.

So all you need to do is pull the upper cotter pins, back both upper BJ nuts off about 3 turns (enough to create a visible gap between the nut & cam), and then put the pins back in. Keep the area wet with penetrating oil. When the gap disappears (and the steering gets even WORSE), tighten the nuts ~2 turns (slightly LESS than before so you don't re-stick them) and then go to an alignment shop you can trust.

But if you don't have adjustable bushings in-hand, you'll be buying hard cams. Either way, make FERDAMSURE they give you back your original bushings. If you have them install adjustables, write down each setting as soon as you pick up the truck so you can see if they're rotating (losing adjustment) and so you can set them back.

 

['84Bro]

Camber bushings don't wear - they don't move, and nothing moves against them. Other parts wear, causing the need to change to a different bushing to return to the correct camber angle. But another option is aftermarket adjustable camber cams, which never need to be replaced again.

I like the idea of never replacing again :rockon, the MOOG part# K80108 will wk on the '84 also?

. They're either incompetent, or lying. The cam has to come out before the BJ can be removed. And the way to release a seized cam is to back off the nut, and drive. It might take a day or two with FREQUENT checking, but eventually, the vibrations, impacts, & tapered shape will cause the bushing to slide up against the nut again, exposing the area that used to be inside the knuckle.

Great stuff, I'll do this...

Doing the lower BJ while doing the upper makes sense, but since the whole steering knuckle has to come apart FIRST (see the NEXT several pics from that first thumb in this post), and since none of that is necessary to change the cam, again: incompetence or lie. And the coil springs are strictly a lie - if they're not sagging or broken, they never need to be replaced.

Glad you said that, my coil spgs in all apearences seem fine.:twotu:

So all you need to do is pull the upper cotter pins, back both upper BJ nuts off about 3 turns (enough to create a visible gap between the nut & cam), and then put the pins back in. Keep the area wet with penetrating oil. When the gap disappears (and the steering gets even WORSE), tighten the nuts ~2 turns (slightly LESS than before so you don't re-stick them) and then go to an alignment shop you can trust.

Ok, I'm a little slow, backing off the nuts to the BJ and above the camber too?:shrug

But if you don't have adjustable bushings in-hand, you'll be buying hard cams. Either way, make FERDAMSURE they give you back your original bushings. If you have them install adjustables, write down each setting as soon as you pick up the truck so you can see if they're rotating (losing adjustment) and so you can set them back.

Ok, Steve83, thanks for steering me in the rt direction (pun intended)...couple questions...I see from the info you are giving that you believe my rocking issue is coming from the tie rod ends, sway bushings, and steering box, correct? So, where do the upper and lower BJ, Cam bushings, radius arm bushings, and Pivot bushings come into play? I think form what I've read the parts reflected in the two questions above encompass the whole of the front suspension but please correct me if I'm wrong...I did add shocks 'cause I already replaced them or coil spgs.
Thanks again for giving me a starting point,
I won’t be able to replace all the FRT end parts at once,
but just try and knock down the obvious 1st.

 

[clifton l]

. do you have swaybars?????? .

Check the end links, bet one is broke....

 

[Steve83]

K80108 will wk on the '84 also?

Check the Moog or RockAuto sites.

backing off the nuts to the BJ and above the camber too?

Did you look at the pics? There's 1 nut for the camber cam on each upper BJ. It's visible in this pic just above the brake shield:

...you believe my rocking issue is coming from the tie rod ends ... and steering box, correct?

No, I don't have enough info to form an opinion. But those are the first things I'd check. The sway bar has nothing to do with it.

So, where do the upper and lower BJ, Cam bushings, radius arm bushings, and Pivot bushings come into play?

They're on the list right after the first group, but remember - it was your first alignment shop that brought them up; not me.

...the parts reflected in the two questions above encompass the whole of the front suspension...

Not half.

. .

 

[Iyzak]

mine was doing that found out the entire lift was loose, had to weld some stuff together ,sorry im still learning and i didn't do any of this or i would be more descriptive

 

[drialec]

check the tie rods..

 

['84Bro]

What kind of shocks?

Just standard Gas Shocks from NAPA, don't have the part# at this time will post later.

sounds little springs and suspension is wore out. do you have swaybars?????? you need to check everything related to suspension.

I have NO sway bar...ck pics at link below.

Hold it... An alignment shop charged you for an alignment when there was THAT MUCH $#!+ wrong with your front end??? Industry standard for any professional alingment tech is to inspect the whole suspension & steering system FIRST, and only proceed after everything is fixed.It's a real term, but it has nothing to do with the front suspension or steering. Wheel hop is caused by axle wrap, which only occurs with leaf springs.

Your problem is either loose/worn suspension/steering linkage, or a worn-out steering box. Read this caption:

Ck the pics at this link:

http://www.supermotors.net/registry/24380/78757

Check the end links, bet one is broke....

Nope but, the boots on the tie rod ends are split...ck the pics at the link above.

Check the Moog or RockAuto sites.Did you look at the pics? There's 1 nut for the camber cam on each upper BJ. It's visible in this pic just above the brake shield:

No, I don't have enough info to form an opinion. But those are the first things I'd check. The sway bar has nothing to do with it.They're on the list right after the first group, but remember - it was your first alignment shop that brought them up; not me.

You are totally correct Steve83, Forgive me, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, What I ment was how do the other parts come into play in terms of the rockin' issue and steering in general. I have created a supermotors accout at the link above, please ck out the pics, I would greatly like to here your comments. I'm trying to figure out how to post them this thread.


Not half.

. .

check the tie rods..

Yep, they appear to be an issue along with other parts, ck the pics on the link above.

 

[Steve83]

This thread explains how to embed thumbs into your posts:
http://www.supermotors.net/forums/thid-5972-how-do-i-post-pictures-sounds-and-or-videos

You have the oldest-style of camber cams, so the ones in my '96 front axle probably won't work, but then again - they may fit perfectly.


You've mislabelled this pic - it's the pivot bushing for the passenger beam, so it's the passenger pivot bushing, even though it's on the driver's side of the truck.

I notice that the bolt doesn't appear to pass thru the center of the bushing, so it's probably shot. The other doesn't look perfect, so I'd put in a pair of poly pivot bushings.

The L RA bushing appears OK.


But the R one is gone - note the shiny area below it on the RA bracket, indicating a LOT of up/down movement:

So I'd put a full set of poly RA bushings in, too.

This upper joint doesn't usually go bad.

But the lower one (the rag joint) not shown in your pics is notorious. Swap in a used '87-91 intermediate shaft with molded rag joint & improved upper joint.

'84Bro[/color]]So, where do the upper and lower BJ, Cam bushings, radius arm bushings, and Pivot bushings come into play?
...in terms of the rockin' issue and steering in general.

Ultimately, the steering system pushes/pulls the steering knuckles laterally against the frame. Any lateral slop between the knuckles & frame at any point (either in the suspension, or in steering linkage) will result in sloppy steering. Slop between the wheel & steering box will result in a sloppy FEEL, but if everything else is good, the steering will track straight & smooth. So the BJs, camber cams, & pivot bushings can cause sloppy steering. The RA bushings can allow caster changes (up/down) that result in poor tracking or return-to-center, or tiny changes in thrust angle (fore/aft).

 

['84Bro]

This thread explains how to embed thumbs into your posts:
http://www.supermotors.net/forums/thid-5972-how-do-i-post-pictures-sounds-and-or-videos

Thanks.

You have the oldest-style of camber cams, so the ones in my '96 front axle probably won't work, but then again - they may fit perfectly.


You've mislabelled this pic - it's the pivot bushing for the passenger beam, so it's the passenger pivot bushing, even though it's on the driver's side of the truck.

I notice that the bolt doesn't appear to pass thru the center of the bushing, so it's probably shot. The other doesn't look perfect, so I'd put in a pair of poly pivot bushings.

Thanks for the correction, I've changed the discription on both pics.

The L RA bushing appears OK.


While taking more pic I found it to look just like the R, couldn't get a good pic.

But the R one is gone - note the shiny area below it on the RA bracket, indicating a LOT of up/down movement:

So I'd put a full set of poly RA bushings in, too.


This upper joint doesn't usually go bad.

But the lower one (the rag joint) not shown in your pics is notorious. Swap in a used '87-91 intermediate shaft with molded rag joint & improved upper joint.

Is this what your talkin about:

Ultimately, the steering system pushes/pulls the steering knuckles laterally against the frame. Any lateral slop between the knuckles & frame at any point (either in the suspension, or in steering linkage) will result in sloppy steering. Slop between the wheel & steering box will result in a sloppy FEEL, but if everything else is good, the steering will track straight & smooth. So the BJs, camber cams, & pivot bushings can cause sloppy steering. The RA bushings can allow caster changes (up/down) that result in poor tracking or return-to-center, or tiny changes in thrust angle (fore/aft).

Great info, thanks.

So I guess its a no brainer to replace the tie rod ends

and the steer arm drag link, Correct?

Here is a pic of the ball joints, should they be replaced?

How do I determine if the coil spgs need to be replaced?

I will have to do this in stages, what parts are best to replace first or does it matter?

Thanks for the input.

 

[Steve83]

Is this what your talkin about:

Yes, the rag joint is inside that plastic cover. Rotate it so the hook comes away from the hard line, then slide it rearward/up the intermediate shaft to expose the actual rag joint for inspection/photo.

So I guess its a no brainer to replace the tie rod ends...and the steer arm drag link, Correct?

No, not if they're not worn/loose. You can buy poly tie rod end boots from the same supplier as the other poly bushings, and install them on these & any future tie rod ends. They'll last (virtually) forever.

Here is a pic of the ball joints, should they be replaced?

Can't tell from a photo. Typically, when I'm checking ball joints, I use a prybar to spread the lower joint (between the knuckle & suspension arm). If the gap opens, or there's ANY movement, the joint is bad. If there's a fine red powder leaking out of the joint, or if they squeak while rotating the knuckle with the tie rod disconnected, they're bad.

How do I determine if the coil spgs need to be replaced?

If they're broken, or if they're sagging unevenly, or if a MODERN (preferrably optical) alignment machine detects that they're collapsed so far that the camber & caster can't be set. Ride height is a major alignment consideration for the TIB/TTB suspension.

I will have to do this in stages, what parts are best to replace first or does it matter?

Braking & steering are the most critical systems on a vehicle; the front end parts are involved in both systems. But the ball joints are the least likely to have a catastrophic failure, so if you have to prioritize, I'd put them low on the list.

 

[PARAFROG]

Yes, the rag joint is inside that plastic cover. Rotate it so the hook comes away from the hard line, then slide it rearward/up the intermediate shaft to expose the actual rag joint for inspection/photo.No, not if they're not worn/loose. You can buy poly tie rod end boots from the same supplier as the other poly bushings, and install them on these & any future tie rod ends. They'll last (virtually) forever.Can't tell from a photo. Typically, when I'm checking ball joints, I use a prybar to spread the lower joint (between the knuckle & suspension arm). If the gap opens, or there's ANY movement, the joint is bad. If there's a fine red powder leaking out of the joint, or if they squeak while rotating the knuckle with the tie rod disconnected, they're bad.If they're broken, or if they're sagging unevenly, or if a MODERN (preferrably optical) alignment machine detects that they're collapsed so far that the camber & caster can't be set. Ride height is a major alignment consideration for the TIB/TTB suspension.Braking & steering are the most critical systems on a vehicle; the front end parts are involved in both systems. But the ball joints are the least likely to have a catastrophic failure, so if you have to prioritize, I'd put them low on the list.

i just wanted to add one thing to the illustrious steve's info:

when adding poly bushings to your suspension:
these bushings are stiffer than the regular bushing material--they will make your suspension feel much more responsive, BUT, when adding them to only one component, they will put added strain on the other bushings on your suspension, and cause them to wear more quickly--even to the point of failure.

adding poly makes your suspension more responsive, but you must quickly replace all the other bushings in the front end with poly. i added total poly to the rear end of my nova. for a while, my nova's front end felt like my vette. but soon after, the stock, front end bushings became massively spongy, and just as i had read, the front end became looser than ever. poly is great, but i believe and have read, only as part of a total poly upgrade.


frog.

 

[WEEKEND 4 WHEELERS]

hey just for thought. i went to midas and they told me that my steering box was the cause of my truck floating when i change lanes/hit bumps in the road. they said they would not do the alignment for this reason. well i needed to get 2 new tires because the two front ones from the previous owner where worn out. and the other 2 he had bought brand new at discount tire. well i went and got 2 new 33" dura tracs and put the falkens he bought up front. ever since then this thing drives like a new truck. tires were causing all the issues.

 

[Munkeelj]

hey just for thought. i went to midas and they told me that my steering box was the cause of my truck floating when i change lanes/hit bumps in the road. they said they would not do the alignment for this reason. well i needed to get 2 new tires because the two front ones from the previous owner where worn out. and the other 2 he had bought brand new at discount tire. well i went and got 2 new 33" dura tracs and put the falkens he bought up front. ever since then this thing drives like a new truck. tires were causing all the issues.

the tires were my first thought