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Master Bater
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Discussion Starter #1
This may not be the right forum, and if so, move it please.

I have a few thoughts on both as I am planning this winters upgrades, but would be interested to see what everyone else has to say about these two. For arguments sake, lets leave it to comparisons of the following only:

Atlas ( either 3.8 or 4.3)
Klune (2.72 version) into a 205.
203/205.

Behind an auto or stick, or preferably both (as in: running an auto now, going to stick down the road, or vice versa). Why do you feel one is better than the other, please site examples or reasons.

Some considerations to discuss are cost, ratios, simplicity of install and use (sychro'd vs not, less "optiopns is osmetimes easier,etc), durability, fitment/length with various trannys (particularily the E40D), driveshaft considerations( i dont think i have seen 1350 options for the atlas, but could be wrong)

Post up what you know, your opinion, facts as to length, cost, weight, etc, etc.

PLEASE, dont turn this into a "whats a doubler post" for those that dont know. Just read and learn
 

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Cadillac of Men
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i would take the extra gear options of the doubler/klune over an atlas any day, especially since both are the same price or cheaper than an atlas. as for klune vs doubler...i havent decided myself yet.
 

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Master Bater
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Discussion Starter #4
yeah, but sometimes options can be overwhelming and not used. Afterall, you have multiple gears on your tranny, so even if you were always 4.3 to 1, you could shift to second or third.

just playing devils advocate to spur conversation.

a doubler is just a repeat of the same gears. Thats what I dont like. you get to 2 to 1 from either the 203 or 205, and then 4 to 1. So you really get 2 to 1's. Whereas with a klune, you get 1, 2, 2.72 to 1. Better "options" like you stated.
 

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Okay I'll tell you about my experience with the atlas as that is all that I know.

Advantages:
1) Dual sticks- gives you the ability to run just on the front which I have used a couple of times.

2) the thing is realitively light and very compact - I don't remember exactly but off the top of my head I would say it is about 4 inches shorter than the borg warner I replaced and this helps reduce driveline angle. It is not as thick as the stock case so it sits higher in the frame, giving a little more ground clearance.

3) Very low - low range in mine is 4.3 and I have never been in a situation where it would not easily spin all 4 locked tires. I'm behind a C6 auto. Like the auto trans myself.

Disadvantages:
1) There are some situations (mud) where high range is too high and low seems too low. I run mud in drive on the auto and low on the t-case and the engine really spools up with the trans in high gear. I don't think I ever get going more than about 30-35 mph with the engine racing around 5 grand. I have plenty of horses to generate a little more wheel speed but in low that is all it will give me. If I go into mud in Tcase high range and the trans in low the finial ratio is taller than the stock truck was with the tcase in low so it bogs a little if the mud is really thick (Oklahoma red clay) I just don't like bogging down the motor. I could use another ratio in the middle.

2) Cost - not only is the atlas expensive but It requires driveshaft modifications and mount fabricating. Not the cheapest way to go.


If I was to do it again I think I would put a Klune v (1.9) in front of the atlas, which would add a couple of inches to overall length because the klune v replaces the trans tail adapter. I believe my crawl ratio is about 58:1 now plus I get more slip in the auto trans. So far I haven't seen the need to go any lower (if I doubled the ratio again my truck would only go like 5 mph at redline in the lowest gear) but as I said it would be nice to have another ratio in the middle.

When ordering the t-case from atlas they will hook you up to run whatever size u-joints you want. I have a 1410 on the front of mine and a double 1350 on the rear. I had them upgrade the front output shaft from the regular 28 spline to a 32 spline. No problems with durability so far but have heard of one guy breaking his in Oklahoma city. (his truck was in the Top truck challenge) Hope this helps.
 

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I killed Kenny...again
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i dont know a whole bunch on the topic, but i understand doublers, Klunes, and Atlas's. gut reaction says Atlas for simplicity. i dont know how much you'd have to modify your driveshaft, if any, b/c i would think the atlas would be around the same width as the stock t-case. plus, its twin stick, so you can run 2wd, low range, front wheel drive. the combinations are just awesome. a doubler would take a lot of room, though not as much as a Klune to t-case, i think. that would mean shortening your d-shaft and/or having a custom one made. just my .02
 

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jrdbronco said:
i dont know a whole bunch on the topic, but i understand doublers, Klunes, and Atlas's. gut reaction says Atlas for simplicity. i dont know how much you'd have to modify your driveshaft, if any, b/c i would think the atlas would be around the same width as the stock t-case. plus, its twin stick, so you can run 2wd, low range, front wheel drive. the combinations are just awesome. a doubler would take a lot of room, though not as much as a Klune to t-case, i think. that would mean shortening your d-shaft and/or having a custom one made. just my .02





Dude if you realy think that a atlas would be the same length as a BW, than that only shows how much you really have not looked into it.

lets use your post as a example of what in put is not needed.

now will some one who has good first hand expeirence or some real tech infor post up!




Look D it only took 4 posts :thumbup
 

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Master Bater
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Discussion Starter #8
good info Hulk.

Things to consider
1. you would have to change shaft length with a doubler setup also
2. the klune only comes as a 2.72 (goliath) or 4 (david)

Does anyone know if Atlas will warranty there tcase when used in a fullsize? someone told me they do not.


JRD, as hulk stated, the atlas is signifcantly shorter than a BW case
 

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Well Done Man!
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Not a fan of the Atlas in a fullsize.
After you get 32's splines front and rear, your looking at 2500$
Also Atlas's are known to have oiling issues when used on long drives. (go buy a trailer :flipoff2: )
Klune 2.72 to 205 is a good route, cheap, about 1600 out the door for the klune, and 205's are almost free
 

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Master Bater
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Discussion Starter #11
OK, so a klune could be had for cheaper (dont forget adapters) if it will fit with no other mods. I have yet to see anyone that has gotten one in with an e40d and a sterling. That Kuss guy is close, but no one has verified it works.
If this is the case, you would need either a different tranny, relocate the axle which may need gas tank relocation, or moving the motor forward (least attractive idea).

I know there are a few working on it, but to date, I dont believe that anyone has been succesful.

Now, I have heard a few people say that the Klune eliminates the intermediary between the tranny and the bw case. I do not understand that to be correct, can anyone prove me wrong?

While the atlas may be more expensive, it sure goes in a lot easier with the E4OD tranny, and tranny swaping egates the savings of the klune
 

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Master Bater
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Discussion Starter #13
there is no adapter between the e40d and the bw tho, its just the intermediry that covers the output shaft and supports the tranny. I must be missing something here, or using the wrong terminology, because I have gone around with this a few times.

IF, what you are saying is right Mark, then a klune and 205 would fit easily. That adapter is about 5 inches IIRC. I will go measure and take a pic so we are all on the same page here.



OK, here is the pic. The intermediary is about 4.75 inches long


 

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I would call that a tail housing that comes on all trannies.


I dont like the atlas warranty. It would suck to have to remove your broken atlas send it in, and than wait to have them fix it or tell you nope sorry not warrantied. Thats alot of down time. 6 months thats nothing. Not when you pay 2500 bucks for it. If thats the case, I would get a 205 for 100 bucks, twin stick it for 200 bucks including the twin shifters, and add a 3.0 kit for what 1200. Bingo a atlas but much stronger and 1,000 less cash.

But thats only 3.0. Which is not much more than the BW. A BW 2.69 or 2.72?


mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm klune is looking better
 

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I am pretty sure that the Klune does not replace the tailhousing of the transmission. Even if it did, what would that buy you? The transmission tailshaft still sticks out 7", so losing the tailhousing doesn't buy you anything.

In fact, you can see that the Klune has the standard 6-bolt pattern in the link that Mark posted.

The "advantage" of a twin-stick on the Atlas is moot. The Klune/205 and 203/205 both would have that advantage. Similarly, none of the cases listed are synchro'd. You can shift them high/low with the truck moving at a pretty decent speed (clutch in, 10-15mph works most of the time), but you're meshing the teeth by hand -- there's no synchro there to do the job for you.

Damon, I can tell you that (so far), I don't use the 4:1 for climbing much. It's great for crawling down off of things or repositioning the truck, but there's no bumpage down there. Well, to be perfectly honest, I usually run both cases in low and the 435 in 2nd. 1st gear is straight cut and a bit noisy, so I use the helical cut gears in the tcases instead.

I can't see wanting to have a lower crawl than what I have now (105:1). That opinion might change over time, but it's plenty low for now. I *can* see wanting a 3:1 gearset for the 203 (or a Klune, etc), for the added versatility. The 435 gears are all roughly 2:1... so 1st/high/high is the same as 2nd/low/high and 3rd/low/low. 6:1 might be somewhat useful, but the 2:1 vs 3:1 would be very nice.

And yeah, Norm was looking at an Atlas behind a warmed-over big block. He said Advance told him that if it broke, there wasn't anything they could do about it... and they couldn't promise that it wouldn't break.

The Atlas is very similar to a 300... some would say unbreakable, but people break 205s all the time. I understand that the Atlas uses the same countershaft bearing setup that the 300 uses, too... (never been inside of one myself) so it's just some roller bearings and thrust washers there. The 205 uses conical bearings there, so it's obviously more durable in a couple of critical areas. Good enough for most applications, sure.... but hardly the strongest thing going.

The Klune is shorter... and probably close in price vs. a 203 doubler with a 3:1 kit... the only disadvantage really is that you can't call any-old-driveline-shop and get bearings for it.
 

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Here is a good link for Klune.
Klune V

You can read just about everything on the site but it doesn't have all the model specific details. I considered the Klune and called for specific application questions.

I think I can answer your last question by stating that the Klune goes in in place of the item you are describing as the intermediary. (I don't know the right term and just call it the tailshaft of the trans). Your t-case will end moving back about 3 inches. If I remember correctly they have parts to bolt right up to AOD, E4OD, C6 or anything ford makes. Like I said earlier, if I was to do it again I would still get the atlas but I would have put a 2.0 goliath in front of the atlas.
 

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Hulk said:
I think I can answer your last question by stating that the Klune goes in in place of the item you are describing as the intermediary. (I don't know the right term and just call it the tailshaft of the trans). Your t-case will end moving back about 3 inches. If I remember correctly they have parts to bolt right up to AOD, E4OD, C6 or anything ford makes. Like I said earlier, if I was to do it again I would still get the atlas but I would have put a 2.0 goliath in front of the atlas.
From the link you posted:

The "standard bolt pattern" designed into the Klune-V Extreme Underdrive is the most common bolt pattern used on American made transfer cases. It is a 6 bolt circular pattern, used on all New Process 231, 241, 208, 207, 242, 249 Transfer cases. One or another of these cases are used in almost all Jeep, Dodge, and Chevy 4WD vehicles since 1987. This bolt pattern is used on 1980 and later Chevrolet NP205s. It is used on the Jeep Dana 300 case. It is used on the Ford and Dodge NP205s. It is also used on most of the Borg-Warner transfer cases used in late model Fords.

If your rig has one of these, or one of many other transfer cases that use the same bolt pattern, the bolts will line up between the transmission and transfer case without further adapters. Other applications, such as Dana 18/Dana 20, or early Chevy NP205 T-cases, will require adapters. Adapters are available from Klune-V for many possible combinations.


So? The tailhousing stays put.
 

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TTB Hater of course
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I've argued this before until I'm blue in the face, so I won't do it here. The mis-info can continue to fly.

But Damon, that's just a tailshaft housing. Never heard it called an intermediary, but it's all semantics I suppose. Some call it a t-case adapter, which seems just as accurate because it allows the t-case to bolt up, and 2wd models still have something which could be considered a tailshaft housing, but it's long and conical (in most cases) to accomodate a slip shaft.

Now, having cracked a stock E4OD tailshaft housing, and having had mine off, I've got a little experience there. First, the park gear lives back there. It needs a little bit of lubrication, so there's a small hole in the back of the E4OD to allow some ATF back there. There's also a "wall" built into the adapter which comes up almost to the tailshaft


I assume this is to keep the park gear fluid in place and also prevent it from seeping into the t-case (despite the fact that the front input seal on the BW1356 is a dual seal, ie keeps fluid in and out). Of course I'm sure some spills over while climbing, but if all is working well you never have all that much fluid back there.

What does this mean? Well, it means *if* a Klune replaced the tailshaft housing, it would need to be clearanced for the park gear and somehow allow some fluid back there (ie the Klune would need to have a cavity which accepts fluid from the tranny).

'Nuf said
 

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Oh, also worth noting: I drove Berne's truck with the C6 and doubler. I didn't notice the 4:1 as being SO low with his truck. His first gear is something like 2.46:1, which through the torque converter probably feels about the same as my 3.34 2nd gear.

Point is, the 4:1 would probably get a lot more use in an auto trans truck. Your transmission gears aren't as low, you still have plenty of bumpage, and the extra tcase gearing keeps the transmission temp down.
 

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seboh said:
Oh, also worth noting: I drove Berne's truck with the C6 and doubler. I didn't notice the 4:1 as being SO low with his truck. His first gear is something like 2.46:1, which through the torque converter probably feels about the same as my 3.34 2nd gear.

Point is, the 4:1 would probably get a lot more use in an auto trans truck. Your transmission gears aren't as low, you still have plenty of bumpage, and the extra tcase gearing keeps the transmission temp down.
Not having a auto, I was thinking that with a doubler on a auto it would help with temp so are you sure of this? Its a good thing if so, since tranny temp is so impartant on a auto.

Also help me understand what you mean by "bumpage"
 
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