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Service before Self
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134 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys.. I've written a bunch on the Ford fuel injection site, so please excuse the copy and paste as I already feel like I have carpel tunnel syndrome. No one seems to have a decent answer. I've searched here there and everywhere, so it may be long, but if you know anything about the EEC IV MAF conversion please read and let me know if you have any suggestions

Thanks Sam

Hey.. here's the basics...

88 Bronco with a 6.1L stroker motor (351w block), Running a 1993 Mustang A9L Computer, 80mm MAF meter, 24# injectors, Ported Steel Heads with 202 Intakes, 192 exhaust, Full 3/4 roller cam, Ford Racing Shorty Headers, Balanced, Blueprinted, Aeromotive Fuel Pressure Regulator.. AND 02 sensors and EGR haha..


Here's the problem. I did the MAF conversion to this truck in '97. ProFlo sold the kit (before Bob died if anyone remembers him) I had TONS of problems back then.. I was running a Paxton Super Charger with a high output impeller on a basically otherwise stock motor (except for 42# injectors..).

Anyway the kit came with a A9P PCM. Flash forward three motors later, and it is as above. I could never get the kit quite right, my main problem seemed to be HEGO location. I welded them too far away from the exhaust port first, (over 24" away) so they read cold, cold means rich and the computer melted that first supercharged engine trying to lean it out. Next engine I moved the HEGO bungs to the header collectors and got it pretty driveable. Those HEGOs however seemed to get too hot and the motor stayed a bit too rich.. The Check engine light stayed off and I never had any major problems.

When that motor lived its life out, I built the first motor I talked about. Its been in the truck for about 50k miles or so and running ok. I've always used 4 wire HEGOs although the '93 stang used a three wire HEGO....

I did a major tune up about a month ago. New Plugs, Cap, Button, 02 sensors, EGR solenoid and EVP sensor, and a bunch of other stuff that doesn't pertain to the problem I'm having now...


The check engine light started turning on and off all the time before it finally stayed on. I assumed it was a EGR problem/failure as that has been a plague of a problem from the day I installed the kit. So thats when I started the tune up with EGR parts first. No change in the light.... Pulled the codes and got a bunch of HEGO codes, EGR codes, and a BAP code.

So, I called ProFlo as they've helped a bunch over the years. They said they discontinued my kit since it was such a scab in kit and if not installed correctly, people were having tons of problems... So, after a long conversation with him, I pulled my PCM and started checking my 60 pin connector. He also told me that 4 wire HEGOS will never work with the computer that I'm running. He told me to get a wiring diagram for a '93 stang and start checking stuff. That brought me here, where I've learned alot.

After rewiring my 02 sensor harness (the old PROFLO 4 wire harness just took the 4th wire (extra return/ground) and wired it to PIN 49 (old orange wire ground) and coupled it to pin 46 (air system) so the HEGOs basically acted like three wire HEGOs.

Anyway, I made a new harness with just power (off the PCM), ground (to pin 49) and the left and right signal wires (pin 29 & 43) .. Replaced the 4 wires with 3 wires, had my HEGO Bungs moved to exactly 10" away from the center of the rear exhaust port (just below the header collectors now (shorty headers) and BAM all HEGO codes are gone.

NOW I'm getting a continuous code 32 (KOEO) and a few others (82, 85/95) Also, after running the truck I'm getting a Code 22 in the CAM but never in the KOEO test. Replaced the BAP sensor for safety. (Old one failed a few tests)

I found the flow chart here and followed ALL of the instructions. I have Voltage on my V-REF (5 volts) checked against Sig-Return Also have voltage at other sensors (checked TPS and BAP just to make sure) Also I have .29 volts between EVP and Sig-Return (so the EVP sensor is ok). Last part of the test, I pulled the PCM connector and checked OHMS of resistance between EVP signal and pin 27 Test says should be > 5 ohms. I have .02 Ohms of resistance.. Perfect wire. So, I took all connectors apart at sensors and at PCM (even though it showed no resistance, I thought maybe it wasn't making contact at the PCM, or at the EVP sensor) Cleaned, Retooled the male/female pins and used DiElectric Grease.

Rechecked and STILL GETTING CODE 32! WTF? Last step says PCM must be bad, so I went and bought a A9L which is supposed to be a better computer anyway and put it in today. Fired up sounded great, AND STILL THREW EVERY SAME ****ING CODE.

I don't understand what the issue is. I'm also still getting that ghost code 22 in the CAM but never in KOEO. I think that intermittent 22 is was is causing to turn the check engine light on and off at random (just love it jumping back and forth between closed and open loop.. gas mileage has gone from 13 to 5..)

So, I've replaced every component I can possibly replace, checked and cleaned every contact I can check, then replaced my PCM when I didn't have too (not that I mind having a spare now...)

I'm going to order a SnECC IV but he's not starting production back for a month and short of a breakout box, I have no idea what to do now.

What about the ghost 22. I've been told by quite a few people that EGR is more than just for emissions. I've been told it is written into the fuel curve and running without it can cause some driveability problems, reduction in mileage and most important for me, a loss in low end torque and mid range power. I've heard tuners say they delete EGR and use a series of resistors to fool the computer, but I bet that still hurts the mileage. I think the CEL is coming on and turning off with that ghost BAP problem...

The 32 is a code in relation to the signal from the EVP and I've checked voltage, so I know the sensor is good..Thats why I was talking about a breakout box. I could actually hook a VOM up while I was driving and watch for the code and see what is failing (V-ref, Sig Return, or Signal (pin 27) Also, isn't BAP another mandatory item? See Ford Fuel Injection -> Look down the page for the Fuel Timing and Emissions Strategies So, I guess I'll be cutting the harness open.

I've got a appointment with MPH in Cartersville, Ga. They are supposed to be one of the best tuners in the South East and they seem to think they can fix the problem with a Chip, but I'm thinking more along the lines of that somewhere in this 20 year old harness is a problem. I've cut one side apart (the old fuel injector side that is no longer used but still had the connections for TPS, Vehicle Temp Sensor and Computer Temp sensor. I found that every place I'd cut out the old injector harness connections there were bare wires (wire sheathing will eventually shrink back with heat exposure) and the power side to the injectors still had power on it with 8 exposed locations that could possibly have been touching the intake manifold or the back of the heads or anything.. (but I've never had a problem with the TPS...)

So I cut that harness completely down, removed all non working wires, soldered all ford press together connections, Cold Fusion Thermal Rubber Taped them and then used new high temp split loom. (Also, after re-routing to the top of the intake manifold from behind the engine found the harness to be about 5' too long.. oh well..) So, that only leaves one harness.. The other side has the EGR, BAP, New Injector Harness, Ignition,etc. in it.. So, maybe there is, like you said, an intermittent short or break in a wire. I ALMOST ordered a complete harness from ProFlo.. Its $550.00 but comes complete with every engine management part that you need. All you do is connect power and ground.. But I'm going to see what the tuner says first...

I could also (even though brand new and just replaced) have a bad EVP (although it passed every test) and a bad BAP (also passed every test).. So.. I will know more after my trip to the tuner Saturday...

I can no longer (and I don't know why) do ANY KOER tests. Pin 30 is somehow different on the A9L computer and I was warned to remove it as it won't work with my setup anyway.. I can still do KOEO tests, but it I attempt a KOER I run the risk of frying my new PCM... Also I'm getting the 32 in KOEO tests.. So, for some reason its not reading the voltage (.29 on the sig wire) even though the wire is good and I've checked it from the sensor to the PCM pin. I'm going to trace V-REF and Sig Return but I think my CEL turning on and off constantly is from the ghost 22, intermittent BAP disappearance.. as that is happening when the engine is running, but 32 is also happening when the engine is running or not.. (I could do KOER with my A9P, but now I can't with my A9L....) :banghead

I've also been told that RF can cause the kind of problems that I am having... I do have a 225 amp alternator that is directly connected to the batteries via 2/0 cable, a kicking stereo system, 4 or 5 two way radios of various frequencies), a liquid filled Mallory 70k volt coil, emergency lights (strobes and LEDs) a siren, and a winch.. any of these could add RF noise... :whiteflag:banghead

Thanks for all your help

Sam
 

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aka: kemicalburns
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7,860 Posts
24lb injectors sounds small for your build perhaps they arent up to the task. also is your maf calibrated properly? the A9P better then the A9L from what i have heard but either should work. it definatly sounds like you need a tune. any idea where your A/F ratio is? im sure someone will chim in with more experience then myself.
 

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Satyr of the Midwest
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17,734 Posts
It would be nice to have a frequency counter or an oscilloscope plugged into the BAP line at the PCM connector. That way you could see for yourself what it's doing. Strange that it comes and goes like that; makes me think of a broken or corroded wire.

I agree with you 100% on the EGR. People using resistors are just fooling themselves, not the PCM, and here's why: if you block off the EGR, the mappings (fuel and spark) will be wrong. If you indicate that it's always closed, you're going to be losing a lot of mileage, because now the engine must intake ONLY air and fuel; without the inert exhaust gas to take the place of air and fuel, more air will have to fill that space, and consequently, more fuel.

Heh, I'll trade you problems. I'm attempting to correctly connect a DPFE system onto manifolds never intended to suit it. Should be interesting, especially on deciding which header to bolt it onto, the subsequent piping, choosing the appropriate EGR valve, machining an adapter for it to attach to a Mustang/Lightning style EGR spacer.... :cry :D
 

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Service before Self
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134 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
24lb injectors sounds small for your build perhaps they arent up to the task. also is your maf calibrated properly? the A9P better then the A9L from what i have heard but either should work. it definatly sounds like you need a tune. any idea where your A/F ratio is? im sure someone will chim in with more experience then myself.
Strange you should say that about the computers, because I've heard the exact opposite. I've heard the A9L ('93 5.0 manual) is completely different on the inside and is a much better computer than the A9P ('93 5.0 Automatic)
Who told you the opposite?

I went from 42#'s with that S/C engine down to 24#'s when I went back to NA. I can deliver more fuel than I'll need with those 24# 's. Yup my Meter is tuned. In fact I have 3 meters on the shelf.. Two of those $350.00 75mm Chrome MAF meters (one tuned to 42# injectors and one tuned to 24# injectors and then the one I have on the truck now which is one of the nylon ones also tuned for 24#) All came from PROFLO, which is the best MAF tuner in existence in my book...

As far as running goes, this truck will BLOW YOUR MIND. For a NA Bronco on 33's it is way way way to fast, and if you have the balls and want to take your eyes off the road you can sneak a peek at my on dash fuel pressure gauge (a MUST from those S/C days) and you'll see that I never have less than 48 LBS of fuel pressure at WOT in the 5500 RPM range... So, thats not the prob either. Also, NO HEGO codes now, meaning Air/Fuel is good, and/or correctable by the computer and is within limits. Problem is the computer jumping out of close loop and constantly going back and forth, thats why I'm losing mileage, (well, I also have a small problem keeping my foot out of the radiator...) :thumbup

But as far as tuning, and I admit, I'm a Exhaust pipe smeller, the truck is doing ok. It would be perfect if the EGR was working, but it isn't running to rich or too lean (no popping/pingy lean exhaust, and no awful rich fuel smelling exhaust or black smoke).. New plugs have been pulled twice recently to check and coloration is ok too.. (gapped at 050 if your interested...)

Also left an important note out. When I had my O2 bungs moved to a correct location, while at the muffler shop, I had my pipes crossed. (running true dual 2.5" exhaust with nothing but flowmasters..) Problem is, the Left pipe runs about 4 feet further than the right. Left has to cross at the Torque converter, run down the right side passed the x-fer case then Cross back over under the driveshaft, over the rear axle and out. Right side leaves header collector, goes straight back, over the axle and it out. Which isn't too big of a deal for stock or mildly tuned engines, but if you really start flowing some air, your engine will notice, as did my left side crank bearings from my last build (A little more wear, and mic'd out a bit larger) So, I finally had the pipes crossed at the back of the T-fer case and had a small x-over pipe (H-pipe) Welded in... Now the exhaust runs equal distances and that was good for about 20 or so more HP (and you can really feel the difference through the RPM range from idle to 6,000..) Plus it made those flow masters sound even better...

Anyway, so thank you for the reply, and yes it needs a tune for max HP, but I think more I need to find the source of that weird intermittent problem with the BAP sensor and WHY it won't read its EVP sensor...

Thanks for the reply!

Sam
 

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Service before Self
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134 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
It would be nice to have a frequency counter or an oscilloscope plugged into the BAP line at the PCM connector. That way you could see for yourself what it's doing. Strange that it comes and goes like that; makes me think of a broken or corroded wire.

I agree with you 100% on the EGR. People using resistors are just fooling themselves, not the PCM, and here's why: if you block off the EGR, the mappings (fuel and spark) will be wrong. If you indicate that it's always closed, you're going to be losing a lot of mileage, because now the engine must intake ONLY air and fuel; without the inert exhaust gas to take the place of air and fuel, more air will have to fill that space, and consequently, more fuel.

Heh, I'll trade you problems. I'm attempting to correctly connect a DPFE system onto manifolds never intended to suit it. Should be interesting, especially on deciding which header to bolt it onto, the subsequent piping, choosing the appropriate EGR valve, machining an adapter for it to attach to a Mustang/Lightning style EGR spacer.... :cry :D
I think you are 100% correct that somewhere in that 20 year old harness is something broken, burned or corroded.. That still leaves the 32. Why won't the computer read the freaking EVP? The sensor is working correctly, has V-REF volts, has Sig-Return ground and the signal wire is working well. (according to my Fluke)

Yes, I'd LOVE to have something directly on the PCM pin while driving (and have asked to PreOrder a SnEEC IV) Thats the 60 pin Break out Box with the computer software to watch everything in real time... Really helps you locate problem children (wires, sensors, etc.)

I've also considered wrapping the BAP and the lines in that Aluminized HVAC tape and grounding it to see if it truly is some kind of RF interference...

Thanks for the reply, and your problem sounds MUCH more of a pain. Reminds me of all the weird plumbing I had to do when I was Super Charged... (why does this thing keep shredding PVC valves... and I DO mean shredding....)
I was looking at a few schematics for the DPFE system.. It really doesn't matter where you take your sample from does it? (your pressurized sample).. I would have concern making my exhaust uneven.. If you are running the 5.8 Lightning manifold, is it the double butterfly like mine? Where the EGR valve mounts on the front pass side of it?.. I bought FoMoCo Racing shorty headers exactly for that reason.. They are pre-plumed for my EGR...

Sam
 

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Satyr of the Midwest
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Thanks for the reply, and your problem sounds MUCH more of a pain. Reminds me of all the weird plumbing I had to do when I was Super Charged... (why does this thing keep shredding PVC valves... and I DO mean shredding....)
I had a friend with a Paxton-blown Lightning that did the same thing for some reason. Damned if I can remember why though. :banghead

I was looking at a few schematics for the DPFE system.. It really doesn't matter where you take your sample from does it? (your pressurized sample).. I would have concern making my exhaust uneven..
Theoretically, it shouldn't matter where the sample originates. It's basically using a very simple Pitot tube setup, so flow is characterized by the differential in those. I don't think I know enough information to be confident stating whether the location matters or not. I don't know sample rate, pressure linearity/deviation/cycling, etc. So I'm going to take a wild half-educated stab and say that as long as it's in a similar location to the factory calibration setup, it'll be all right. I've already welded my headers enough to not be too scared of having to weld on yet another pipe fitting. :toothless

If you are running the 5.8 Lightning manifold, is it the double butterfly like mine? Where the EGR valve mounts on the front pass side of it?.. I bought FoMoCo Racing shorty headers exactly for that reason.. They are pre-plumed for my EGR
It's exactly like a factory Mustang/Explorer 5.0L setup, but the plenum is turned 180 degrees. I'm using a 65mm throttle body, a 67mm EGR spacer (which I machined personally out of a factory Mustang one), an Explorer plenum, and a Cobra R lower manifold. I guess I should note that I'm using a PCV valve for a 1995 Cobra R as well; it seems to yield the best results as far as crankcase pressure vs. oil consumption (both of which are really great now!).

I still have to attach my air pump and valves to my engine. It was interesting that on the California PCM I'm using, air in only injected (into the collectors!) during warmup, then it's just bypassed to the atmosphere after that. :shrug Weird. Maybe they were trying to achieve better light-off characteristics or something. To that end, I welded a pipe fitting into the collector on the driver's side header so I can plumb in lines using flare fittings. I have yet to touch the passenger side. Now in hindsight, I may remove the driver's side yet again and futz with it...gonna take a little longer than a weekend, and that's about all the time I have to work on this damn rig. I work in Grand Rapids, but my tools and equipment are back in Ida. :doh0715:
 

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aka: kemicalburns
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i believe what i heard about the A9P is it had more aggressive timing curves due to being used with the auto trannys but can be run in the 5speed manuals as well.
 

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Code 22 The BAP can be set as a constant by a tuner. I do run one. Sounds like your is working fine. The code also represents a MAF that is out of range. Your after market MAF certainly has a different operating range/voltage range than the stock one the computer is looking for. A tuner can fix that by setting the proper range in the program.

The EGR system can be turned off/eliminated by a tuner. I don't run EGR

32, 82, 85 EVP, TAB, TAD and Canister purge have been eliminated, on my build, as well and it will run fine. I live with those codes. I am hoping to have some time this weekend to turn some of that shit off. I frequently check for codes and certainly check if I notice a difference in the way it is running.

I use a TwEECer to tune and have eliminated all but PCV, no emmisions testing.

As you have mentioned, A new harness form Ryan at Fordfuelinjection.com could solve some problems or, in the least, eliminate it as one of the potential problems.

The Cam may also be a problem. Look at Ryans site and his post here in the tech. section on picking a cam. The lobe separation has to be above a certain numnber, don't recall now. http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6867 An after market cam can be tuned for if it is out of the Specs Ryan suggests for the stock computer to handle. Injectors timing and spark can be changed.

You will want to take your cam specs to your tuner.

A good tune will help with mileage. My guess is the MAF which is calibrated to the injectors is just not cutting it as well as the spark timing and injector timing. The tuner can input the corrrect flow for the MAF you are using and the injector size to get best results as well as make adjustments for the cam.

I hope this helps.:beer
 

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Service before Self
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Discussion Starter #9
This is pretty interesting...


I have .28 to .29 volts koeo at the EVP between sig and sig-return. Which is acceptable according to the book (range is .24 to .67 engine off) .... I put some manual vacuum on the valve with a vaccum pump. At first I put too much vaccum on and ran the voltage over .67 and reran koeo and changed the code to a 34... but then put around 1mm/hg on the circuit and brought the voltage to around .5 (made sure to stay below .67) and viola, code gone (well still throws 82,85,95) but that made the code 32 go away. Also, put the volt meter first on V-Ref and Sig-Return for the EVP then moved it too the BAP and let the vehicle run WOT a few times, neither lost 5 volts ever....

Ran the test for 10 mins or so on both sensors, with the CEL still turning on and off, neither sensor lost voltage... Now what do you make of that?

So...

I was digging through my garage tonight and I found my original (from 1988) EVP sender still attached to my old EGR valve, so remember what I just said... I figured why not give it a try. Well, I felt the plunger push down just a bit when I installed it... plugged it up, hooked the VOM to it, turned the ignition on and viola, its putting out .338 volts, so I ran KOEO and code 32 is gone. Only throwing a 82,85,95 which I know about, so I ran the engine for awhile, CEL still flashed on and off randomly, so I rechecked KOEO and that ghost 22 was back in the CAM. I am now highly suspect of that brand new BAP sensor being bad. I'm headed to the dealer tomorrow on my way to the tuner for a new BAP sensor. Unbelievable. My 20 year old original Ford part worked better than an out of the box new part. I guess that some computers aren't happy with .24-.29 volts. Some need over .30 volts from the EVP to not throw a code. How odd.. I'll let you know what happens tomorrow when I change the BAP sensor..

sam
 

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Service before Self
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Discussion Starter #10
i believe what i heard about the A9P is it had more aggressive timing curves due to being used with the auto trannys but can be run in the 5speed manuals as well.
Seein' as I didn't need the A9L after all, I'll ask the Tuner when I'm there tomorrow.. I'll take both with me as well as all 3 MAF meters I have to see what will work best. Hope to leave with some more HP..
 

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aka: kemicalburns
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im sure you will drive away happier then you are now for sure. I would be interested in hearing what they say about the different ecu's as well.

good luck
 

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Service before Self
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Discussion Starter #13
Well I'm a happy camper...

im sure you will drive away happier then you are now for sure. I would be interested in hearing what they say about the different ecu's as well.

good luck

You are correct. Stock for stock, the A9P has a more agressive curve, but when your are having your vehicle chipped and tuned, it doesn't matter which you are running (thats straight from the tuner) So I left my A9L in it...

I had a feeling my brand new BAP sensor was bad, so I picked up one on the way out to the tuner, plugged it in and zip tied it in place :toothless.. and that ghost code 22 was gone too. So, two brand new bad sensors right out of the box (EVP and BAP). Both are going to be returned tomorrow. The Turner turned off all my air management/canister purge/thermactor system and EGR so, now my truck is happy as can be. Fuel/Air is perfect, and its running better than it ever has. Best money I've ever spent!

...And seeing that system pass code when running KOEO and KOER after all I've been through was the best feeling ever!

-Sam
 

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aka: kemicalburns
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7,860 Posts
did he hook it up to a dyno? if so what numbers did it put down?
 

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Service before Self
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134 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
did he hook it up to a dyno? if so what numbers did it put down?
Yeah he hooked it up to the Dyno.. Thats the only way to tune it right... Made about 6 passes. Kept my Fuel/Air at 12.5-12.8 WOT all the way through the curve so I don't hurt the motor....

Also, I think my rings are really getting tired. I'm getting an occasional blue puff at start up, and my rear main seal is shredded now from shifting it at 5500 too many times... I wish I would have met these guys about three motors ago when I was running my S/C. Really wish I would have done this when this motor was fresh...

I don't know if I said this or not, but

1) if you ever have the chance to go to MPH and just watch, its worth the time. Tim and his wife and everyone that works there are kind down to earth nice people. He has MILLIONS of dollars worth of the coolest mustangs I've ever seen in his parking lot. A new GT500 will be there next week, and I watched a 1000 RWHP Turbo charged Cobra (about an '07 I think) lay 1/2 mile of black marks when they made a few passes out front of the shop (sideways) testing it before it headed off to the track tonight. They have two Dynos, so next to my little ole truck was a '07 Saleen making about 450 RWHP on 4 lbs of boost. Also watched another beautiful '06 Silver Cobra get a tune and Dyno run. Anyway, the vehicles there are incredible and its fun to watch the tunes and dyno runs, even if your not having any work done... however it does make you want to get your credit card out :shocked

2) While there I met another good ole boy who just happens to have that Eddelbrock performer upper and lower that I've been looking for, also has a spacer. All I need is the Throttle body now and I have an excuse to get rid of my silly stock fuel rails. Only problem is its worth near 100 hp with the heads & cam I have and I may have to go to 30# injectors...:rockon

Also, per tuners suggestion, I'm working on an electric fan (3000 CFM) mount into my factor fan shroud so I can dump the mechanical and I need to order an underdrive crank pully.. Tuner said those two simple bolts ons will be good for 30-40 more minimum.

Anyway to answer your question (and I don't want to as I really expected a lot more for my displacement and build) I put down high two's (270's RWHP at 4500) and Middle 300's in torque (at about 3500) We guessed it had near 400 at the crank, but C-6 & transfer case is a lot of drive train loss. Also, my intake runners are so long for that 5.8 its like trying to breath through a straw... I'm REALLY looking forward to bolting on that Eddlebrock kit. I've heard some great stuff. I'll post up my print out of my best run... He's e-mailing me a BMP of it. I need to do some research on connecting everything back up as that new upper changes everything...

Sam
 
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