Bronco Forum - Full Size Ford Bronco Forum banner

1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
OK, I have a 93 with a 302/E4OD daily driver. Drive it about 5 or so miles a day to and from work. The problem I am having is a hard to start after initial startup. It goes like this: in the morning I crank it up and it starts like a charm. Immediately fires up after cranking. No miss, no sputter, nothing. I drive to work and there it sits for about four hours before I go to lunch. I go to start her up and she just cranks. Sometimes she sputters, sometimes she just cranks. She will do so for about a good 5-10 seconds, and it is a fast crank, not a slow, dead battery crank. Once she does fire up she reeks of raw fuel. So here is what I have done so far: most all sensors are new ( I bought her about a year ago and she was in bad shape), except the oxygen sensor. It has a new alternator, new coil, new dist cap and rotor, new sparks, new module, new map sensor, new tps, new coolent sensor, new fuel pump, new fuel filter, new fuel pressure regulator, and the injectors have been serviced. Now before I get scolded for dropping money on the problem please note that all this has been replaced over the past year when I got her either because it needed it or I figured on replacing it before it did. This problem started fairly recent. She runs great, idles great and after the ignition bump I even noticed an improvment in mpg. I figured it may be the timing so I checked it again and even replaced the timing chain to be on the safe side. I did find that my harmonic balencer was loose and shifted, giving me a bit of a false reading, but all that fixed was a slight ping I had on acceleration. If I set the timing to where it starts up warm then I have absolutely NO power what so ever. So that is not a salution. I am wondering if it is maybe the computer that is reading something falsly causing the delay in igntion? Another thing, the only codes are three inactive codes: 327 (egr) but I already replaced the position sensor so I'm not sure if that code would affect my starting, and 617/618, (1-2/2-3 shift errors) yes, my trans has a slight issue shifting in the low gears, but is minimal and can only be seen/felt in the rpms. Oh, and it does it regularly, meaning when I go to lunch and park it for an hour, it does the same thing, and when I get out of work in the evening, same thing. It does not start up right away until the morning. Please, any insight or ideas would be greatly appreciated.... its more annoying and embarassing than anything...lol. Thanks in advance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,382 Posts
Check your fuel pressure. Might be flooding engine if fuel pressure regulator is bad. Also try this, next time it's "time" for this to happen. Try pushing gas pedal all the way to the floor when starting it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
mine has the very same problem, ive come to the conclustion that its the check vavle in the filler neck. i think mine loses its fuel pressure so it take a while to start up after the morning, but same thing i touch the key in the morning and it fire right up and after a hour or more i have to crank for a good 5-15 sec sometimes and i can smell raw gas. im gunna try o-ring on the fuel injectors leme know if you fix yours and ill let youknow lol is so anoying
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
101 Posts
To me it sounds like it could be one of two things?:
1) a bad temp sensor (for the computer, not the gauge)
2) lack of fuel pressure

A bad temp sensor keeps telling the computer that the engine is at cold running temperature, regardless of where it is at. When the vehicle is cold the sensors transmitted signal is meaningless and the computer "riches" up the fuel mixture going into the cylinders, so the vehicle starts and runs normal. Usually this is done by the computer increasing the pulse length on the injectors so they stay open longer per cycle, which richens up the mix. After having warmed it still transmits a "cold" signal so the computer is dumping more fuel into the engine than what is needed so you get flooding and it won't fire up immediately. You saying it smells rich of fuel gives me this guess?

The lack of fuel pressure is the other possibility I see. You have two relays under the hood to worry about, the ECM relay (computer) and the Fuel Pump relay. The ECM relay is supposed to relay power over to Fuel Pump relay once the key is turned to the 'On' position. The Fuel Pump relay sends that power back to the Fuel Pump to pressure up the rails and injectors. If you don't hear your fuel pump 'prime' when you turn the key to 'On', then you know where to start looking. With these Ford EFI setups I have always hooked up a cheap www.SummitRacing.com fuel pressure gauge ($20-ish) to my schrader vavle (on the fuel rail) and that alone will tell you if your "engine cranks but won't start" issue is fuel pressure/pump related. I have heard of continuous cranking over of the engine can cause enough vacuum down the fuel lines to get the pump working, but I have never experienced this on a Ford, only on a TPI Chevy ... so who knows whether this is your issue?

As far as your timing, that sounds really fishy too. You need to make sure your distributor is inserted on the proper tooth, your cam and crank sprockets are aligned properly, and that your cam isn't screwy. Your whole issue could be related to timing events, as in the way it is set, it favors a cold and rich mixture?

Good Luck
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Thanks for all the responses. I have checked the fuel pressure and it is right at 45 when I turn the key on, so i know the pressure is good. I am inclined to agree with Worthy that it seems to be a sensor reading issue. I did replace the coolant temp sensor for the computer along with the harness a while back, and I am not getting any codes. So I guess I will check the readings off the sensor while the engine is cold, then when its warm. If the readings are what they should be then I will check the wiring. If all that seems good then I will have to replace the ecm as a last resort. I am convinced it is reading the sensors incorrectly, otherwise I would get a code of some sort. I will keep you posted.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Vapor lock? Do you have your fuel lines running close to your exhaust? After the truck warms up and runs, then sits when you shut it off, you could be vaporizing the fuel in the line. Then when you do finally get it started, and your fuel pump pushes the vapor out of the lines, all the built up pressure could be creating the rich or "reeking of fuel" smell. Because you've got a pocket of vapor in there, nothings coming back down the return line...

I'd check and make sure you don't have a fuel line anywhere close to your exhaust manifolds.

I would think it would run like crap all the time if you had a timing issue...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
23,549 Posts
Doubtful on vapor lock.

Verify TDC on your harmonic balancer to be sure it has not spun and leaving u with incorrect timing. U also have to pull the spout connector out to set the timing
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
23,549 Posts
Doubtful on vapor lock.

Verify TDC on your harmonic balancer to be sure it has not spun and leaving u with incorrect timing. U also have to pull the spout connector out to set the timing
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Ok.... problem took a turn for the worse. I checked for codes and sensor specs last weekend, but found nothing out of the ordinary. So the other night I left work, same hard start issue, nothing new, but then after a couple of miles she died!!!! Just bogged down with a complete loss of power at first, then as I pulled over she just died. She cranked fast, made an effort to start but nothing. Now after a bit of sitting there, I tried again and the only way I could get her to fire up was if I pumped the gas pedal really quick. She would run, but only erradically and she would ping and knock badly, like if the timing was off. I drove about a mile like this, top speed about 5 miles an hour (it was late, no traffic). She wasn't smoking, but the exhaust had a funny odor. I could not go farther so I called the wife and she came and pulled me home. The next morning I checked for fuel, it had it; pressure, it had 45lbs; I even removed the line and pumped out some fuel, it was clean. Removed the spark plugs, the were somewhat moist and carbonated, so I cleaned them. I checked the spark and it had a pretty good spark on all wires. I then checked the distributor and it was spinning, lined up with the timing as it should be. And I know the timing marks are correct because I had replaced the harmonic balancer a couple of months ago for that reason. So my next step was to remove the dist to make sure the gear hadn't spun, it hadn't. At this point I am going to remove the module and go get it checked to see if it isn't bad, and I am going to check the computer too. The whole pumping the pedal to get it to run is telling me it may be electrical. I also had checked the water and it was low, about a half gallon, so I may also have a blown head gasket. But I need to pressurize the system to check it. And yes, I had looked to see if it was overheated when it shut off and it wasn't. One note though, I had checked the compression not too far back while diagnosing the hard start and it got up to 105-110 on the cylinders, but had to crank a bit to get there, any thoughts? I will keep you all posted, and any idea's on what else to check would be great too. Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
101 Posts
Modules do go bad; I once had an ex-cop 5.0 Mustang with 150K miles, and the module went bad one day and did pretty much what you are describing. Acted like a fuel issue, running out of fuel sort of thing. Anyhow, doesn't necessary mean that is what you are experiencing, but that isn't a bad place to start.

Anyhow, I would also check for a clogged catalytic converter? A stuck valve will create a situation where a cylinder never builds compression, but a slow build of pressure is usually related to worn piston rings, valve guides and/or seals, or a blown head gasket. If it builds pressure, and maintains that pressure for a decent amount of time, then you are probably barking up the wrong tree. Wouldn't hurt to check valvetrain later on in the troubleshooting to make sure your cam hasn't done something funny?

Usually when a head gasket goes bad you lose one cylinder or two. The engine typically will still run, but not great, and usually won't just shut down. In the past I have found a consumption of coolant and overheating, but never the problem you describe ... Usually capable of speeds better than 5mph too, so I don't think that is what you've got.

If I had to bet, I would guess the Module first, and the Catalytic Converter second? This break down could also be completely unrelated to your other hard start issue?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Thanks Worthy, I'll definately have the module checked. As for the catalytic converter, it was removed a while back for going bad, and I didn't have the money to replace it. As soon as I get it going I am reinstalling it because I hate not being able to drive with the rear window down. Keep you posted.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
I purchased a bronco for cheap from a guy who misdiagnosed a bronco doing the same thing. The bronco in question had fuel pressure as well at idle, right about 45#. The deal is when you step on the gas, initially it would go up, but then it would drop off sharp down to about 15-20. Make sure you check running pressure at a couple thousand RPM's and check for this drop off before you bless off the fuel pump.

Also, check your coil for overheating and check voltage at your coil while trying to start the vehicle when the condition is present. Operation makes a coil hot, especially if your condenser has failed.

Needing to have your engine turn over a couple times to get a good compression reading is normal, however, having it peak out at 110# of compression is not normal. You should be closer to 140-160 on that motor. The spec is that all of the cylinders compression values should be within 10% of each other.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
OK, I found the problem! It was a bad map sensor belive it or not! I finally got it running well enough to run the codes, (I had mistakenly removed the battery because it died cranking and didn't pull the codes.) and it was reading low voltage. I unplugged it and viola! She ran! I got a new sensor so it is running and staying on. I now have a new problem though. She is running rough. I have replaced the armature, cap and rotor, but she is still running rough. I narrowed it down with a timing gun that the #2 and #5 cylinders are not firing. There is no spark on them what so ever..... until I accelerate it. Then they begin to spark, but the engine still runs rough and has no power. Could it be the ECC? I noticed the relay gets really hot while the key is on.
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top