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Discussion Starter #1
Ok just got back from lookin at a 80 bronco that looked like Taz resided inside it... well I didnt buy it cuz I think it has a wiped lobe on the camshaft among 1000 other problems, but I noticed it has 2 oil dipsticks... yes 2 the one on the driverside read full on oil, the other was on the front of the passenger side head running down to the front of the oil pan and read empty before start up, and empty after it was running... cept for the sludge and metal crud... Ive never seen two dipsticks on an engine, but Im not a ford guy so I dont know if that is normal or not... the owner says sometimes it reads full and the driverside dipstick will read empty... is this normal to have two? and if it is, is it normal for them to read different?
 

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Sounds like the engine was transplanted in from something that had a front sump oil pan,
that is what the front passenger side dipstick would have been for.

At least the proper rear sump oil pan has been swapped on to the engine,
which gives you the other dipstick to read from.
 

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Are you sure it was a 351 W and not a 351 M? 80 models that came with a 351 were modifieds, not windsors. I know different years of the modifieds had different dipsticks. I filled in the hole on the front of the motor and just run the one down into my pan when I had to source out a new core.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
huh well he said it was a windsor... I certainly dont know... I also didnt know that they still had the M's in 1980... are the M's considered big blocks? er what is it that makes it a modified?I guess it could have been transplanted too... I thought it was rebuilt cuz it had an almost metallic blue paint on block, heads, and valve covers, but then it had yellow paint numbers on the valve covers like it was from the factory... I should have taken a picture, but I was a bit frustrated on its condition after talkin to the guy on the phone and driving an hour to find a giant turd...
 

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Sorry about the different years in the last post. I meant different models of vehicles. I have quite a bit going on in my house right now. The 351M was in vans cars and trucks so the blocks have a provision for a front dipstick used with vehicles that have front sump pans. If you strip a truck block down you will find the provision. Somebody had to have replaced the motor with a different one in previous years. Like I said in the previous post, I had to do the same thing. I just blocked off the front provision instead of having a short dipstick that wouldn't read an oil level. I'm willing to bet the truck you looked at was a 351M because Ford used that motor until some time in lat 81 or early 82. If you buy the truck and it is indeed a 351M you will find that most parts houses will sell you 351W parts and you'll start asking for 79 Bronco when they ask you what year and model.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
yeah i just read up on them on wikipedia and according to them it was a change to the windsor mid 82 year... I think Im going to pass on it.. $600 sounded good for a running bronco and looked good in the pics, but its a turd... I was just confused bout the dual dipsticks... it was an auto anyway and I really want a manual 78-9 myself so Ill just have to let this one go to someone more desperate...
 

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I was just confused bout the dual dipsticks...
Someone probably just installed a deep sump oil pan with an in-pan dipstick, and failed to remove the old OEM dipstick that was located in the block. Maybe they thought it was cool, or couldn't find a plug.

My new Milodon 4x4 Oil Pan in my 351W (now 408W) has a Lokar Dipstick in the pan and I removed the old OEM one.







 

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Discussion Starter #8
thanks guys, I learned more than I was askin about already (351m up to 82) I must say this is the best forum Ive ever been on... so whats the the deal with the M? I know that the 351 came in cleveland and windsor of course, but whats the purpose of a third 351 modified? is it a modified C or W or is it a whole other block?
 

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From what I've been able to find out. The Modified or Midland, depending on who you talk to, are basically a modified version of the Cleveland. Ford used parts they already had to build a motor to meat the strict standards in the 70s. They're not a bad motor, you don't have a vary large aftermarket support when compared to the windsor. They're known for making their power at lower rpms. They can be made into a pretty good screamer, but their still bigger and heavier than a windsor. For my usues the modified is fine because my truck is my trail rig and I want my power in the low to mid range. The 77 F250 4x4 I bought off of one of my brothers ex father-in-laws, I called him uncle, and freind of my Grandfather went 372,000 miles without having to have the motor cracked open. Uncle Dean had a diesel repair shop years ago and bought the truck new and used it as a shop truck. The driveline was maintaned very well but the body got beat hard. Somebody had replaced that motor with one from another model of vehicle before. Since you already know the truck is no good for your plans this is all for your general knowledge.
 

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The 351M is based off the 400... You will find that when you do a swap from a 351M to a 351W you will need different bell housings and flex plates as well. I'm currently going through the swap myself...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_335_engine

Since the wiki covers more than just the M:

When the 351 Cleveland was withdrawn after the end of the 1974 model year, Ford needed another engine in the 351 cubic inch (5.8 L) class, since production of the 351 Windsor was not sufficient and the 390 FE was being retired as well. To replace the 390, Ford took the 400 engine's tall-deck block and de-stroked it with the shorter throw crankshaft from the 351 Windsor, and taller pistons, to produce a 351 cubic inch (5.8 L) engine whose components were largely compatible with the 400. This engine was called the 351M and as a back-formation the taller-deck block became known as the M-block.

The M designation is commonly referred to “Modified”, and is derived from the use of both "Cleveland" (block, heads) and "Windsor" (crankshaft) components in the same engine, a modification for the parts' intended application, so to speak.

Another origin of the M designation may have come from where the engine blocks were cast. It follows the naming convention set forth by the 351C (Cleveland) cast at the Cleveland Foundry and 351W (Windsor) where the majority of the blocks were cast at the Windsor Casting Plant. From the introduction in the model year 1975, the 351M engine blocks (which are the same as the 400 engine block) were all produced at the Michigan Casting Center (MCC) in Flat Rock, MI or at the Cleveland Foundry (CF) also known as the Cleveland Casting Plant (CCP). To help distinguish it from the other two different 351s, the logical choice was to use the Michigan Casting Center, hence the “M” designation for 351 Michigan.

The 351 Cleveland had a well known, good reputation in the public. For a few of years after the introduction of the 351M, Ford marketing called the engine the "351 Cleveland". This led to confusion as to what 351 version was actually in the vehicle.

Later, car enthusiasts incorrectly referred to this engine as a "351 Midland" presumably a reference to Midland, Michigan, a city just northwest of Saginaw or reference to an iron foundry in Midland, Texas. But the Ford Motor Company never owned a “Midland” factory.
 

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You can convert a 351M to a 400 just by swapping the crank and pistons. Other than that they are the same motor.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
right on... good info to know for future reference... Ive only run across one before, up in Curlew Washington on my buddies demo LTD.. had a 400M... his dad, the best sauced up mechanic I know, hates the M's for some reason, says they are a dog... now I know why since they are more for low end power... he races dirt track... thanks guys for all the info... now I wont be opposed to having one in the 78-9 that I hope to find in the future..
 
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