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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
My "derrick needs a new engine" fund will be getting replenished over in Iraq in the next couple of months, and I was thinking ahead to engine projects.

Does anyone have any experience with PAW's engines? That 420(formerly 427)long block sounds pretty sweet, and is priced really well.

I've never rebuilt an engine, but it's something I definitely want to take the time to learn...So I'm not opposed to buying the necessary tools to complete the job, or anything like that.

It would be pretty nice, b/c as far as I know they come ready to assemble, with all the machine work already accomplished.

I've searched through some mustang forums, to see if anyone had anything bad/good to say about them, but I didnt come up with much.

Do you guys think it's a good route to take for a 1st ever build up?
 

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I've considered the PAW kit and know a couple people who have bought them. They look pretty good, very complete, and the price isn't bad. I found out that I could get a comparable price for better parts and machining from my local speed shop, though, so it's worth shopping around.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Larston said:
I've considered the PAW kit and know a couple people who have bought them. They look pretty good, very complete, and the price isn't bad. I found out that I could get a comparable price for better parts and machining from my local speed shop, though, so it's worth shopping around.

Did the people that you know, run into any quality control issues with the items that they bought?
 

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I haven't heard or read anything bad about PAW, when time comes to build the 408 for my 65 coupe I will probably use them...gotta build on a budget as well.

Get a book on balancing and blueprinting the engine. There are a lot of very precise actions that need to be taken so that you don't have problems down the line. If you take your time it will turn out great.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
50Gunner said:
I haven't heard or read anything bad about PAW, when time comes to build the 408 for my 65 coupe I will probably use them...gotta build on a budget as well.

Get a book on balancing and blueprinting the engine. There are a lot of very precise actions that need to be taken so that you don't have problems down the line. If you take your time it will turn out great.

Is there any books that you'd recommend? I've seen those "How to to build a small block ford" and "How to build a big inch small block ford" books, but the way you're making it sound, I'd need someting a bit more in depth. I'd like to take some reading material with me to the desert, so I can do some homework. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
 

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Buy Haynes' Ford Engine Rebuild book. Haynes is real good for helping you step by step (even those steps you learn to skip after doing it awhile) but is perfect for a first timer. If you've got basic tools, a torque wrench, and a harmonic ballancer puller you can pretty much tackle it. I used one of PAW's basic rebuild kits when I freshened up my block last time. PAW is a great company with a great catalog. I swear they list EVERYTHING they sell in it. Nice thick book. I believe the 427 is what they call a Y block which might cause you some problems in finding a way for it to bolt up if you don't fab motor mounts up yourself. If you want to go for the gusto then pull yourself a junkyard 460 and use the book described to tear it down and rebuild it. L&L products sell motor mounts so you can bolt it in. They've got adds in alot of 4 wheeling mags. I believe they also sell headers that will work. Remember that you will need to get the tranny that goes with it as the small block trans won't bolt up. You can get one off of most of the 78-81 Broncos which have 351M or 400M motors in them. A 460 has the same bolt patterns as those two engines. I had thought about a Y motor myself (I've heard the 390s chug along nicely) in the past but parts for these engines are expensive as compared to the more common small blocks and even the M motor series. If you want something to bolt up to your current trans you are stuck with a 300 6cyl, 302, or 351W. unless of course you've already got an 78-81 with an M motor. In which case the 460 will bolt right up to your trans. :thumbup
 

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Discussion Starter #7
BigNorm said:
I believe the 427 is what they call a Y block which might cause you some problems in finding a way for it to bolt up if you don't fab them up yourself. If you want to go for the gusto then pull yourself a junkyard 460 and use the book described to tear it down and rebuild it. L&L products sell motor mounts so you can bolt it in. They've got adds in alot of 4 wheeling mags. I believe they also sell headers that will work. Remember that you will need to get the tranny that goes with it as the small block trans won't bolt up. You can get one off of most of the 78-81 Broncos which have 351M or 400M motors in them. A 460 has the same bolt patterns as those two engines. I had thought about a Y motor myself (I've heard the 390s chug along nicely) in the past but parts for these engines are expensive as compared to the more common small blocks and even the M motor series. If you want something to bolt up to your current trans you are stuck with a 300 6cyl, 302, or 351W. unless of course you've already got an 78-81 with an M motor. In which case the 460 will bolt right up to your trans. :thumbup
To clarify.

The 427 that I mention is a 351w bored and stroked to a 427. IIRC theirs used a 400 crank, and required a ton of bottom end work. I have no clue why they discontinued it tho. Maybe they had some trouble with it. The 420 uses a 4340 crank, but is still a small block. I origionally thought of going the 460 route, but I recentely had my e4od gone through, to the tune of about $2300, so I'm really in no hurry to get rid of it. So the next best thing(IMO) is staying with a small block, but getting as many "safe" cubes out of it as I can.
 

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Iv never bought an engine from them but I have bought some stuff for my bogger...They were great..

If you want to see or ask questions about a 427 small block ask my buddy Randy...Heres his 67 Bronco...

http://performanceunlimited.com/photos_staff/67bronco.html

If you want ALOT!!!! of HP talk to him...Hes going to be building my next 460...Im giving him my motor & we are going to go for whatever he can get out of it in HP...Should be a fun project
 

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derrick36 said:
To clarify.

The 427 that I mention is a 351w bored and stroked to a 427. IIRC theirs used a 400 crank, and required a ton of bottom end work. I have no clue why they discontinued it tho. Maybe they had some trouble with it. The 420 uses a 4340 crank, but is still a small block. I origionally thought of going the 460 route, but I recentely had my e4od gone through, to the tune of about $2300, so I'm really in no hurry to get rid of it. So the next best thing(IMO) is staying with a small block, but getting as many "safe" cubes out of it as I can.
Oooooohhhh. You didn't mention it being a stroker. Yeah then. As you already know it would bolt up just fine. I'm not sure how you'd get it to work with your 91 electronics but I'm sure it can be done if you convert to a MAF system. Here's a link that can give you an idea to what's involved in that: http://www.abysmal.com/bronco/engine/Engine.html As far as PAW goes I've bought from them like 3 times now and every single time the service before, during, and after the sale was awsome. Their sales staff is knowledgable and very helpfull. One thing I like about PAW is they sell factory parts. I bought a set of Ford rods for a 289 once which they shot peened for me and bushed them for full floating rods. Anyway if it's got to do with engine rebuilds I always give them the first shot. I'd check out and see the cost difference between having all your own machine work done and adding the 427 stroker kit yourself and having them do it. It may be good for your own automotive knowledge to slap the parts together yourself but costwise might end up being cheaper to have it assembled already. Good luck! NORM
 

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Discussion Starter #10
BigNorm said:
Oooooohhhh. You didn't mention it being a stroker. Yeah then. As you already know it would bolt up just fine. I'm not sure how you'd get it to work with your 91 electronics but I'm sure it can be done if you convert to a MAF system. Here's a link that can give you an idea to what's involved in that: http://www.abysmal.com/bronco/engine/Engine.html As far as PAW goes I've bought from them like 3 times now and every single time the service before, during, and after the sale was awsome. Their sales staff is knowledgable and very helpfull. One thing I like about PAW is they sell factory parts. I bought a set of Ford rods for a 289 once which they shot peened for me and bushed them for full floating rods. Anyway if it's got to do with engine rebuilds I always give them the first shot. I'd check out and see the cost difference between having all your own machine work done and adding the 427 stroker kit yourself and having them do it. It may be good for your own automotive knowledge to slap the parts together yourself but costwise might end up being cheaper to have it assembled already. Good luck! NORM
Thanks for the link.

I know that SD is not up to the challenge. I'm hoping to start seeing the Mass-air swap harnesses that Ryan makes, up for sale. There used to be a date on his site as to when they'd be ready to go, but it looks like thats been removed. I think they're supposed to be sold through http://www.massairsystems.com/ but I dont see them listed anywhere. I dont know what the deal is.

I dont know too much about the engine shops around here. Maybe it's worth getting acquainted.

As far as the cost part goes. If it's a huge difference in price one way or the other, then it would make sense to take the cheaper route. If it's a reletively small amount of difference, at this point I'd rather try it myself, and gain the knowledge. To me, it's just one of those things that you should know how to do.
 

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derrick36 said:
Thanks for the link.

I know that SD is not up to the challenge. I'm hoping to start seeing the Mass-air swap harnesses that Ryan makes, up for sale. There used to be a date on his site as to when they'd be ready to go, but it looks like thats been removed. I think they're supposed to be sold through http://www.massairsystems.com/ but I dont see them listed anywhere. I dont know what the deal is.

I dont know too much about the engine shops around here. Maybe it's worth getting acquainted.

As far as the cost part goes. If it's a huge difference in price one way or the other, then it would make sense to take the cheaper route. If it's a reletively small amount of difference, at this point I'd rather try it myself, and gain the knowledge. To me, it's just one of those things that you should know how to do.
true too true. Go for the gusto and do it yourself. Find a buddy that's done an engine before and he could show you what you might not already know. You will be astounded how easy the engine build really is. It's gettin the Fuel Injection to work that's gonna be your big headache. From what I gather the guy that got it to work on his 409 had to have a few custom chips burned before he could get it to run right. Alot of guys, yours truely included would just wimp out and find a good carb setup. I'm sold on Ford 2100s but it definately wouldn't do for high rpms. I built mine for 4500rpm or less which has worked out great for me so far. I spend most my wheeling at around 1000-3000 rpm with an occasional 4500rpm mud blast. Carefull how you build it. You can have thousands sunk into a motor before you even know it. I think summit knew me by my # when I was building my 'stang. :) Take Care and good luck!
 

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Assembling a windsor stroker might be a bit much for a first time engine builder. As a word of warning, you are probably going to have to notch your block at the oil pan rails and the bottoms of the bores. You might also have oil pump & pickup fitment issues, and you might have to "modify" your oil pan.

Otherwise, a stroker windsor is pretty cool. Ford racing sells a complete 392 stroker short block for $3700. It seems like a "chunk of change", but the engine has the sportsman II racing block that accepts a hydraulic roller cam, forged pistons, etc. It is a lot of money up front, but it is complete. Add up the cost of a stroker kit, the cost of a 351W block that accepts a Hydraulic Roller Cam ($500+ used!), the cost of machine work to said block ($300), etc, and you will see that it really is not that much more.

Another option for you to consider is adapting a lightning engine to your bronc. These thing spit out 450+ rwhp and gobs of torque. You can buy a complete wrecked one and strip it, computer and all. Plus you get to use the 4R100 auto trans (Bullitproof).
 

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Discussion Starter #13
BigWheelz said:
Assembling a windsor stroker might be a bit much for a first time engine builder. As a word of warning, you are probably going to have to notch your block at the oil pan rails and the bottoms of the bores. You might also have oil pump & pickup fitment issues, and you might have to "modify" your oil pan.

Otherwise, a stroker windsor is pretty cool. Ford racing sells a complete 392 stroker short block for $3700. It seems like a "chunk of change", but the engine has the sportsman II racing block that accepts a hydraulic roller cam, forged pistons, etc. It is a lot of money up front, but it is complete. Add up the cost of a stroker kit, the cost of a 351W block that accepts a Hydraulic Roller Cam ($500+ used!), the cost of machine work to said block ($300), etc, and you will see that it really is not that much more.

Another option for you to consider is adapting a lightning engine to your bronc. These thing spit out 450+ rwhp and gobs of torque. You can buy a complete wrecked one and strip it, computer and all. Plus you get to use the 4R100 auto trans (Bullitproof).

That is what I saw as a benefit of the PAW engines. They come with the machine work already taken care of. As advertised, they're ready assemble.

This should give you an idea on what I'm talking about:
http://www.mustangandfords.com/techarticles/35939/

That engine is no longer available. It's been replaced by the 420 that I talked about in my first post.
 

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Nice. Call them up and see if they still make it. I didn't know you were going to buy the block and all as a kit. It may be cheaper to ship to you assembled. Dunno. Like I said. If all the parts are machiced properly putting it together will be pretty simple. That wiring is what's gonna get you.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
BigNorm said:
Nice. Call them up and see if they still make it. I didn't know you were going to buy the block and all as a kit. It may be cheaper to ship to you assembled. Dunno. Like I said. If all the parts are machiced properly putting it together will be pretty simple. That wiring is what's gonna get you.

I'm pretty sure Ryan will be able to help me in the wiring department.:thumbup

Edit: I should think b4 I speak. I deleted the pointless comment.

They dont make the 427 anymore.

They do make the 420(418 actually), and it uses(what I consider) better parts.
 

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You still need to find a chip that'll conform to what you are doing. If you can find someone that's done the grunt work for you then great. Once you find out then post it to help others that follow your trail. :) It's fun to be a trailblazer. :)
 

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Derrick, I've been contemplating buying a kit from PAW myself, I even have the catalog if you want to check it out (don't know if you have one or not, think mine is from 05'). But after thinking about it over the last year I've decided to buy my stuff here locally. If you're interested you should check out RPM Machine in West Jordan. They sell stroker kits plus they have the machine shop too. I've heard good things about them which is why I've picked them.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Burl Swift said:
Derrick, I've been contemplating buying a kit from PAW myself, I even have the catalog if you want to check it out (don't know if you have one or not, think mine is from 05'). But after thinking about it over the last year I've decided to buy my stuff here locally. If you're interested you should check out RPM Machine in West Jordan. They sell stroker kits plus they have the machine shop too. I've heard good things about them which is why I've picked them.

Sweeeet.

I do already have the PAW catalog(thanks for offering tho)

I will however check out RPM Machine.

Thanks for the info:beer
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Not quite the point of no return, but pretty close

Well, I've been trading PMs with 408bronco, and decided to seemingly take the plunge.

I just went over to NLOC and bought a C3P1 Lightning ECM.:chili:

Now that I've got roughly 6 months to do nothing but read, and learn, I should be able to come up with an engine combo that suits my needs.

Like most stuff I've been doing, I'm probably in WELL over my head, but that doesnt bother me too much. I like diving into projects head first.

I think there are enough people here, and I know there are enough people over there with experience using the TwEECer, that I should be ok.(knock on wood).

I guess I better prepare myself for a HUGE learning curve.

Wish me luck.:thumbup
 

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derrick36 said:
Well, I've been trading PMs with 408bronco, and decided to seemingly take the plunge.

I just went over to NLOC and bought a C3P1 Lightning ECM.:chili:

Now that I've got roughly 6 months to do nothing but read, and learn, I should be able to come up with an engine combo that suits my needs.

Like most stuff I've been doing, I'm probably in WELL over my head, but that doesnt bother me too much. I like diving into projects head first.

I think there are enough people here, and I know there are enough people over there with experience using the TwEECer, that I should be ok.(knock on wood).

I guess I better prepare myself for a HUGE learning curve.

Wish me luck.:thumbup
It's the only way you're going to learn. Keep this link going with updates.
 
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