[pfun41]

When you wire up those new connectors, could you grab some pics?
If they are setup similarly to the ones I have... I might see if I can switch housings and just leave the soldered tips I already have installed. I like those dust-caps, especially for my plow truck that sees a lot of sloppy snow get all up in everything.

As soon as I can make a run into town, I'm picking up a $50 (coupon) 2500 lb. HF winch to replace the 3000 lb. hoist winch on my flatbed because the control box fried on the last one and HF/Badlands wanted $200 to replace the discontinued 3000 lb. control box when I called them. Not directly relevant, but thought you might like to know I had trouble with replacement parts from HF/Badland. Like most HF stuff... replacing is cheaper than fixing. Must be a Chinese mentality. :shrug

Getting any straight replacement parts for HF stuff is difficult. However they use alot of generic parts which can be found cheap if you know where to look.
You must have the remote controlled 3k lb one. Standard wired winches use a generic contactor design, new ones can be had very cheaply on Ebay.
In fact I have to pull apart the contactor for the 3k winch on my ATV. It rusted a bit inside after taking a dunk in a creek and now its sticking.

 

[BikerPepe`]

I'll apologize in advance for the hijack and just hope some of this info may be helpful to Deez at some point. Sorry Deez. :brownbag

Did your remote box die, or was it the contactors inside the box? If it's just a fried contactor, a lot of times you can replace them with pretty common off-the-shelf style relays. That's usually about all I've seen inside any of the winch control boxes that aren't remote controlled. Not much in the way of actual electronics. :thumbup Could probably save yourself a couple hundred bucks, if that's the case.

EDIT: Most winches are wired just about the same, or can be rewired to the solenoid style box. Here is a crapload of info on winch control box wiring and repair if you haven't already found it. The HF winches are pretty much going to be similar to one of the setups in that thread, since there are only a handful of control wiring styles for them ...

I hadn't found that info prior and I do appreciate it but I just got back from town and picked up the 2500 lb. winch for $50 while I was there. It's just for lifting stuff up onto the flatbed and the hoist itself is only 1500 lbs. max anyway, although I did have the main shaft sleeve re-enforced to handle more weight when I get carried away. :toothless

As for the control box... I popped it open and the connections are all still there but the tiny motherboard was burnt brown, so I assumed it was fried and any repair attempt might be more dangerous than long lasting.
The damn thing fried out on me while lifting my 500 lb. sled... so it certainly wasn't an issue of overload. Just cheap crap, I think.
I'll say more about the "other" control boxes below...

Getting any straight replacement parts for HF stuff is difficult. However they use alot of generic parts which can be found cheap if you know where to look.
You must have the remote controlled 3k lb one. Standard wired winches use a generic contactor design, new ones can be had very cheaply on Ebay.
In fact I have to pull apart the contactor for the 3k winch on my ATV. It rusted a bit inside after taking a dunk in a creek and now its sticking.

Difficult... yea, that's a word for it.
Mine wasn't a remote control one... I actually had a button wired up inside the cab and a plug-in, 5ft. (or so) hand controller mounted on the rear of the flatbed.
I checked eBay... but not being too sharp on the wiring, I didn't want to risk ordering one of those to replace the fried one and then have it show-up without any diagrams or instructions on how to properly connect it to both of the controlls I already had setup. I've ordered a few cheap things through eBay and had them show up with no instructions, parts list, warranty info, etc. So, unless they say it comes with all that... I won't bother. No point in wasting money, knowing I'll likely hook up something wrong and fry the damn thing anyway. :doh0715:
As it is... I'll have to ditch both the rear plug-in and the inner button now... since this cheap-o 2500 lb. came with the little remote control-fob. :shrug

 

[Steve83]

As for the control box... I popped it open and the connections are all still there but the tiny motherboard was burnt brown...

Pics? Maybe we can help you bypass the burned part since most winches don't use electronics anyway. (Does this belong in a new thread?)

...instructions, parts list, warranty info, etc. So, unless they say it comes with all that... I won't bother.

This is what I added to my Ramsey recently, and it's pretty straightforward & fool-resistant. :toothless
http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/1037469

But it only works on winches with relays. Some of the tiny ATV winches run the main motor power straight through the control switch, and a remote can't handle that kind of load.

 

[BikerPepe`]

all right... hijack run amok. split it off out here to make a new thread, as suggested.

I'll get some pics of the old one tomorrow. If I can save it with some help... I'll save the new $50/2500 lb. as a spare for the ol' lady's 4 wheeler. :shrug

Thanks for the offers to assist. Far be it from me to refuse help I could use. :thumbup

 

[BikerPepe`]

ok... here's some pics of what I could get to in the controller box. After digging in some and seeing how un-user friendly this thing is, I'm probably going to bag the whole thing.
Doesn't look like I can even get to the problem area and with 2 years of rust and corrosion from being under the flatbed of my plow rig... how much effort is it worth?

I did promise pics though and I'm good for my word, anytime, all the time. :thumbup

Damn shame... since the winch itself works just fine when wired directly to current, but I'm not one for tweeker-rigging something that shouldn't be.
I honestly can't even see where the actual problem is and I took everything apart that wasn't a connector. :shrug
Freakin' cheap, chinese crap... afaict. :banghead

 

[Steve83]

That's interesting... It's a polarity-reversing relay, very much like the lock & window switches in our trucks. :thumbup Someone just decided it would be cheaper to build that than to use 2 SPDT or DPST relays (like my Ramsey has), or 4 SPSTs (like some early winches used). Since it's so much larger than our switches, it should be relatively easy to run some strips of sandpaper between the contacts to clean them off & make it work like new. A little electrical grease (NOT dielectric) on them will make it last longer, if you can get it in there. You can probably remove all the nuts on the big studs, and back them out of the top to make the job easier, and to see what you're working on. It'll only take a few minutes, and you can't hurt it - it's already "ruined". But you can PROBABLY fix it.

These are the SPST starter relays used on Broncos:
http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/870435
http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/829914

Winch relays work very similarly, but they're built for continuous duty and have more contacts.

 

[BikerPepe`]

That "someone" is Badlands winch manuf. and yea... it's likely as cheap as they could find.

bigger problem is the serious rusted, tiny phillips heads on the top. I can't those little bastards to budge w/out stripping... so I didn't even try removing the nuts, assuming I can't lift the cover off without getting those little phillips screws out first. :shrug




You sure your not just messing with me Steve?
I'll give it a shot if you're serious, but if not... I've got better ways to waste my time. :goodfinge
Everything I did get off looked pretty clean and no reason visible for failure but I don't generally mess w/electrical stuff.

 

[BikerPepe`]

well... apparently I don't have any better things to do with my time.

Went ahead and got the rest of it apart. The contacts don't look that bad at all... but I suppose they could use some cleaning. Pretty sad if that's all it takes to put the control box out of action though. Really makes me reconsider going with badlands for a bigger winch for my Bronco (after I win the lotto )

Fresh pics:

 

[Steve83]

The small screws are just for the coil windings - the control/trigger portion. If, when you said the "motherboard is burned up", you meant the dark patch (post #5, third pic) on that green fiberboard (which is just a HD insulating spacer), then that heat came from the high-current contacts having too much resistance. But they don't look discolored or dirty in your pics. Are those before cleaning, or after? The critical points are where the silver "T" bars (the slugs & moving contacts) touch the copper bars (the stationary contacts).

I assumed the coils still work. If you momentarily apply 12V across each coil, will it snatch a slug inside the tube? Don't try to hold the "T" while you do that - it could pinch... And if the spring on the "T" is stout, be careful where it's pointed; when you break the circuit, it could shoot the "T" out.

Once it's clean & tested, it needs silicone grease (dielectric OR electric) on the copper shafts where they pass thru the case, on the case seam, under the small screws, and any other case penetration to make it water-resistant. And it needs electrical grease on the 16 contact points (4 on each "T" & the mating copper pads) to keep Oxygen, CO2, ozone, & Carbon away from the metal when it's hot. Avoid greasing any threads, but don't worry if there's some on them. Clean & electrical-grease the upper face (AWAY from the case) of each nut on the copper studs so it makes good contact with the heavy ring terminals.

At that point, it should be better than new, since it doesn't look like they used any grease. When you mount it, try to set it so all the case penetrations are LOW, and the airtight/watertight part of the case is HIGH so it acts like an umbrella/diving bell and drains water instead of collecting it.

You sure your not just messing with me Steve?

I might have messed with you about just general :bsing in the past, but never about something technical. And this particular item is genuinely interesting to me. I've never come across a relay like this, and I want to see it working again. opc1: I'm not guaranteeing that it'll be reliable enough for you to put back on the winch permanently, but it's really a quick/cheap process just to clean it up & check it out. If it doesn't work, we'll each be out an hour or so, but we'll both have learned about this relay. And you'll still be able to replace it with "normal" winch relays if you want. But I fully expect it to work at least as well as new with a few more minutes' effort.

That "someone" is Badlands winch manuf. and yea... it's likely as cheap as they could find.

Badlands is just a sticker that goes on junk shipped into the US. And it's one of several that all come from the same assembly line in China. There are probably several factories buying those relays for winches & other 12VDC motors, but I doubt it was designed or built in-house by the same factory that's putting it on these cheapo winches.

Here's another one I haven't encountered before:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/130839390780

In any case: it's electrically equivalent to the relays on high-quality winches, so if you want that old winch to work, and this relay doesn't, you can certainly buy a pair of common replacement relays (probably also made in China) and slap them on there.

Here's the style my Ramsey uses:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371145803325

Here's an SPST continuous-duty relay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/281154578706
It would take 4 of those to replace your original 1 polarity-reversing, or my original 2 DPSTs.

 

[BikerPepe`]

The small screws are just for the coil windings - the control/trigger portion. If, when you said the "motherboard is burned up", you meant the dark patch (post #5, third pic) on that green fiberboard (which is just a HD insulating spacer), then that heat came from the high-current contacts having too much resistance. But they don't look discolored or dirty in your pics. Are those before cleaning, or after? The critical points are where the silver "T" bars (the slugs & moving contacts) touch the copper bars (the stationary contacts).

Actually, the small screws I was talking about are the electrical connections that go the the "button" controller.
When I said the "motherboard" you are spot on and I was totally off. The "burn" discoloration I thought I saw was actually rust forming on the coil housing, just under that little "fiber board" insulator, card. That's why we don 't see any other signs of over-heating. The pics are taken before I did anything beyond taking it apart... so you can see there's still no obvious, visible point of failure.

I assumed the coils still work. If you momentarily apply 12V across each coil, will it snatch a slug inside the tube? Don't try to hold the "T" while you do that - it could pinch... And if the spring on the "T" is stout, be careful where it's pointed; when you break the circuit, it could shoot the "T" out.

So... can I just use a 9v battery to test those coils then? Or do I need to take this all back out into the cold garage to test it with a regular car type battery?

Once it's clean & tested, it needs silicone grease (dielectric OR electric) on the copper shafts where they pass thru the case, on the case seam, under the small screws, and any other case penetration to make it water-resistant. And it needs electrical grease on the 16 contact points (4 on each "T" & the mating copper pads) to keep Oxygen, CO2, ozone, & Carbon away from the metal when it's hot. Avoid greasing any threads, but don't worry if there's some on them. Clean & electrical-grease the upper face (AWAY from the case) of each nut on the copper studs so it makes good contact with the heavy ring terminals.

OK... so, it this point I haven't tested anything but before I got back and read your response, I already took some 120 grit and cleaned up all the connections on the copper bars and the "T" thingys.
Unfortunately, to get the posts to mount properly and hold it all together... I had to re-assemble and screw the casing back together, so I could get the little rubber bands (seats?) back around the posts and snugged down as much as possible with the tip of a wood screw to go round and round and finally seat the rubber against the cases as tightly as possible. Apparently, that's what they chose to hold the posts in snug and maybe resist water penetration but that would be really weak and obviously fail, sooner or later. I can take it back apart to grease though.
I have some dielectric grease out in the shop... but that's it. No electrical grease. For all the time and effort put in here and that it will take to re-install the whole thing... should I just make a quick run to NAPA tomorrow and pick up some other type of grease that will do a better job? Like I said... I've got dielectric out there and even some white lithium and blue marine grease, but no "electrical" grease. :shrug

At that point, it should be better than new, since it doesn't look like they used any grease. When you mount it, try to set it so all the case penetrations are LOW, and the airtight/watertight part of the case is HIGH so it acts like an umbrella/diving bell and drains water instead of collecting it.

It's actually mounted up, under the flatbed, inside a channel and facing the rear so any major water would shed... but I'm considering putting some type of rubber over that channel to help repel more water in the future, as it obviously didn't work as well as I'd hoped when I first mounted it under there.

I might have messed with you about just general :bsing in the past, but never about something technical. And this particular item is genuinely interesting to me. I've never come across a relay like this, and I want to see it working again. opc1: I'm not guaranteeing that it'll be reliable enough for you to put back on the winch permanently, but it's really a quick/cheap process just to clean it up & check it out. If it doesn't work, we'll each be out an hour or so, but we'll both have learned about this relay. And you'll still be able to replace it with "normal" winch relays if you want. But I fully expect it to work at least as well as new with a few more minutes' effort.

Good to know. Thank you for the help Steve. I'm going to bail to spend the evening with the little lady now but I'll check back after I put her to bed and get ready to get back at it tomorrow. Anything else you are curious about, I'll be happy to tell. I do still have to install manual from HF when I bought the thing... so I can get some info off that too. :thumbup

c-ya later! :beer

 

[Steve83]

Actually, the small screws I was talking about are the electrical connections that go the the "button" controller.

The buttons turn the relay coils on, so that's another way of saying the same thing.

...there's still no obvious, visible point of failure.

Well, that's disappointing then. I had hoped the contacts had overheated or burned, and that sanding them would restore the relay to functioning. But that would be a visible failure. The only INvisible failure inside the relay would be the coil windings. So all of this disassembly may be moot... Did you ever test the buttons & their wires? You could do that quickly with a powered meter (Ohms, diode test) or powered test light.

So... can I just use a 9v battery to test those coils then?

Theoretically, yes. But IDK how much current those coils draw, and how much your 9V can supply without overheating & rupturing. If you try it, keep it VERY BRIEF, and prepare for hot alkalai to drip or spray. It's not likely, but it's still risky. At the very least, wear glasses.

For all the time and effort put in here and that it will take to re-install the whole thing... should I just make a quick run to NAPA tomorrow and pick up some other type of grease that will do a better job?

Until you know the coils will pull the slugs in, don't spend a dime on this thing. I'd put it together dry and test it for a while before I spent a dollar on it. You may find one of those links I edited into my post above to be more worth your time & money.

 

[pfun41]

steve Im surprised you haven't seen these before. They're commonly referred to as contactors. They come with most winches nowadays.
Heres the one on my ATV.

This is the style I have.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATV-VIPER-W...Parts_Accessories&hash=item566f018460&vxp=mtr
Most of them are interchangeable, the only things different are the locations of the studs and the connectors.
Mine is currently sticking. It powers out fine but trying to power in I get a light click and have to hit the contactor with something to get it to work.

Test your contactor before putting everything back together. If the coils are shot a new one is in order.

 

[Steve83]

That's not a contactor (which is typically more complicated, has a greater disparity between trigger & broken voltage & current, and is processor-controlled); it's just an unusually-complicated relay. Yes, there's some grey area in those definitions, but this thread is about a relay, and so is your eBay link. Whoever wrote that listing clearly misuses terms because he thinks dielectric grease absorbs water. And they're not universally-interchangeable: some are 24V; some are only rated for intermittent duty; some handle more current; some are weatherproof... I don't doubt that many people call it a contactor, but many people call our starter relays "solenoids", and our Broncos "Jeeps".

I haven't bought or worked on "most winches nowadays". :shrug My first winch was a tiny 1-direction POS with a direct-power switch. My 2nd had the same relays as the Ramsey (which is my 4th). The 3rd (for my 2-post lift) was an improved version of the 1st with reversing switches, but it still crapped out. Its replacement (the 5th winch I've owned) is essentially the same, but with a few more improvements, and it still uses direct-power switches. I've only worked on a few other people's winches, and they all had the same relays as the Ramsey.

Your symptom sounds much more like burned terminals than Pepe's.

 

[huggyb1972]

I've tried to read some of this but my attention span will just not permit the rest. Does motor run directly connected to a battery?

 

[Steve83]

Does motor run directly connected to a battery?

...the winch itself works just fine when wired directly...

:twak If your attention spam isn't long enough to read the basic inforSQUIRREL!!!!

 

[huggyb1972]

I'm forced to read this little screen so give me some slack Captain electro.

 

[BikerPepe`]

I'm trying to read the thread and relax a little here and you bozo's are making me cough a lung up! :histerica

Heres the one on my ATV.

This is the style I have.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATV-VIPER-W...Parts_Accessories&hash=item566f018460&vxp=mtr
Most of them are interchangeable, the only things different are the locations of the studs and the connectors.

ok... I looked at those before and was just about to pick one up when I remembered some previous little gadgety type purchases didn't come with any useful instructions. Did yours?

Test your contactor before putting everything back together. If the coils are shot a new one is in order.

With a meter or direct current? I'm seriously clueless here.



oh yea... as a matter of full disclosure, it should be noted that when I pulled the control box after it "seized", I checked the rest of the wiring. I had previously used a smaller gauge wire to run power from the battery to the box. As a result... the 2, daisy-chained circuit breakers had gotten very hot and melted the plastic and tape I had wrapped them in for insulation because of the dangerously piss-poor design of the circuit breaker bar.

Since then... I replaced the circuit breaker that came with the winch (2 generic, 50A breakers bolted to span 2 hot connecting bars) for a properly mountable, 100A breaker with a reset switch and 8 gauge (I think? one step thinner than battery cable?) wire all the way through to the control box.

 

[pfun41]

Your symptom sounds much more like burned terminals than Pepe's.

I've opened it up once and the terminals weren't bad, cleaned them all up, greased the slugs and put it back together. Stupid me didn't test it first. One of the slugs has rust on it and instead of a full click and working like when I power it out I get a half click and have to hit it with the end of a hammer then it engages and powers in.

ok... I looked at those before and was just about to pick one up when I remembered some previous little gadgety type purchases didn't come with any useful instructions. Did yours?

Mine came with the winch and generic instructions. I'm shure a new one wouldn't though. I could label the connections if you wanted to buy one.

I made this video when I first installed it.

With a meter or direct current? I'm seriously clueless here.

Apply 12 volts to the center screw terminal and one of the outer screw terminals. (you'll need to do this with both outer terminals but not at the same time) When you do one of the coils should energize and pull It's respective slug in. If it doesn't you need a new contactor/relay (whatever you want to call it).

oh yea... as a matter of full disclosure, it should be noted that when I pulled the control box after it "seized", I checked the rest of the wiring. I had previously used a smaller gauge wire to run power from the battery to the box. As a result... the 2, daisy-chained circuit breakers had gotten very hot and melted the plastic and tape I had wrapped them in for insulation because of the dangerously piss-poor design of the circuit breaker bar.

Since then... I replaced the circuit breaker that came with the winch (2 generic, 50A breakers bolted to span 2 hot connecting bars) for a properly mountable, 100A breaker with a reset switch and 8 gauge (I think? one step thinner than battery cable?) wire all the way through to the control box.

Mine never even came with one but I bought a 100 amp circuit breaker to add to it.

 

[Steve83]

With a meter or direct current?

Either.

...greased the slugs...and instead of a full click and working like when I power it out I get a half click and have to hit it with the end of a hammer then it engages and powers in.

For the same reason that grease can interfere with hub locks, you might have created that problem.

...do this with both outer terminals but not at the same time...

It won't hurt anything to energize both. It just won't run the motor. Both are normally connected to the (-) pole. When they're energized, they connect to the (+) pole, and having both there won't cause anything to happen. The only reason not to do it is that you can't necessarily tell if they both clicked.

 

[huggyb1972]

Either.For the same reason that grease can interfere with hub locks, you might have created that problem.It won't hurt anything to energize both. It just won't run the motor. Both are normally connected to the (-) pole. When they're energized, they connect to the (+) pole, and having both there won't cause anything to happen. The only reason not to do it is that you can't necessarily tell if they both clicked.

You could be in error with your statement here the vast majority of reversing contact devices are made with a interlock be it mechanical or electric. Most are mechanical.

PePe if you use a ohm meter you are looking for an ohm reading you don't want an open circut (like if your leads are not touching anything) you don't want a dead short (like if your leads were touching each other directly)