[JuiceIsLoose]

1995 XLT, 174k miles, new starter, new solenoid, new(ish) battery, so I'm wondering if the cables are setup correctly. I've found other posts on here about using the new-style starter and solenoid including wiring diagrams etc. I was wondering if anyone could give me a sanity check here so I can at least rule out a wiring issue.

Full disclosure: this might end up being a battery issue. It's 650CC and seems to have a pretty bad voltage drop (regardless of the engine temp) but I just think it's strange that after leaving the car to cool for 30ish minutes it'll start right up. Makes me think it's not a battery issue but open to suggestions. Dumping a bunch of pics below.

 

[JuiceIsLoose]

Sorry, the actual post got buried in between all of the pictures, so here it is:

1995 XLT, 174k miles, new starter, new solenoid, new(ish) battery, so I'm wondering if the cables are setup correctly. I've found other posts on here about using the new-style starter and solenoid including wiring diagrams etc. I was wondering if anyone could give me a sanity check here so I can at least rule out a wiring issue.

Full disclosure: this might end up being a battery issue. It's 650CC and seems to have a pretty bad voltage drop (regardless of the engine temp) but I just think it's strange that after leaving the car to cool for 30ish minutes it'll start right up. Makes me think it's not a battery issue but open to suggestions. Dumping a bunch of pics below.

 

[Gunfixr]

Usually, issues when hot, but not cold, end up being starter issues. The battery and solenoid are far enough away that they don't get terribly hot. Could be wiring, down at the starter end, or the solenoid on the starter.

 

[JuiceIsLoose]

Usually, issues when hot, but not cold, end up being starter issues. The battery and solenoid are far enough away that they don't get terribly hot. Could be wiring, down at the starter end, or the solenoid on the starter.

Yeah you're probably right, I have new sets of battery cables (pos and neg) but just want to verify that the current wiring setup is correct. It'll be really easy to just match everything back up the way it's set up the new cables, but if something is wrong now I'd like to fix while I'm changing all the cables if that makes sense

 

[Gunfixr]

With DC power, all too often, wired wrong does not work. Either not at all, or in the wrong direction, which means not working. Plus, it would be that way hot or cold.
But yes, I see fixing all while there.

 

[Rob_64-365]

I've had this happen on various cars & I would check the main battery ground. On my 86 Bronco the main battery ground looked fine, but once I took it off, internally it was completely green & corroded inside.

I know people go all Gung ho on making themselves a massive new ground wire out of extra thick cable, but I just used a cheap orileys replacement part for $20 & its been fine for years now. If the factory one lasted 36 years, my cheap replacement part that looks just like it should be fine for a long time too.

 

[MS88Bronc]

Also, check your ignition timing. If it's off a few degrees, it can leave compression in the cylinders, and when you go to crank it soon after turning it off (when warm), the starter has to overcome the compression to get it going. This can seem like a low battery or slow starter when it's not.

 

[miesk5]

Yo JuiceIsLoose,
As advised, and;

Voltage; "...a normal battery that is fully charged produces 12.6 volts, not just 12.0 V. (Remember, when measuring battery voltage, everything in the car should be off, or the battery should be disconnected. Voltage measurements are always "no load" measurements unless the battery is being tested for it's performance under load)..." by Gordon
⊙

Starter Motor Cranks Slowly

Loose or corroded battery cable connections. Undercharged battery. Loose or corroded starter motor connections. Malfunctioning starter motor.

GO to Pinpoint Test A.

Pinpoint Tests
NOTE: Use Rotunda Digital Volt-Ohmmeter 014-00407 or equivalent to perform electrical pinpoint tests.

PINPOINT TEST A: STARTER MOTOR CRANKS ENGINE SLOWLY OR NO CRANKING WITH RELAY/SOLENOID CLICKING OR CHATTERING
A1 CHECK CONNECTIONS AT BATTERIES

• Inspect all battery cable connections for looseness and corrosion.

Are battery connections clean and tight?

Yes	No
GO to A2.	CLEAN and TIGHTEN connections at batteries.

A2 STARTER LOAD TEST

• Perform starter load test. Refer to Component Tests in the Diagnosis and Testing portion of this section.

Did starter pass load test?

Yes	No
GO to A3.	TEST batteries. REFER to Section 14-00. If batteries are OK, GO to A4.

A3 CHECK FOR EXCESSIVE RESISTANCE

• Perform voltage drop tests. Refer to Component Tests in the Diagnosis and Testing portion of this section.

Did starter circuit pass voltage drop test?

Yes	No
GO to A4.	CLEAN circuit connection as necessary.

A4 STARTER NO-LOAD TEST

• Perform starter no-load test. Refer to Component Tests in the Diagnosis and Testing portion of this section.

Did starter pass no-load test?

Yes	No
Slow cranking is caused by excessive engine drag.	REPAIR or REPLACE starter.

." by Ford in 96 Bronco/ F Series Workshop Manual partial @ 1996 Bronco/F-Series

Check both battery posts, cables, connectors & major GROUND cables for looseness and corrosion. If you see corrosion on a cables' wires strands between connectors or lugs and leading into the insulation, peel back the insulation to see how far back it reaches.

by El Kabong @
"Cheesy clamp on end. Do not use for a long term repair. Only to get you home when nothing else is available. If you have one of these, suspect it before anything else" El Kabong @ Common Replies to FAQs

Check starter relay for looseness or rust to the inner fender. It's ground is through its body to the inner fender.
Check that starter is mounted securely and connectors are clean and tight

CHECK GROUND CABLES to frame, block etc.
Slow Cranking or a Grinding Noise; "... Problems with the negative battery cable is a major cause of starting problems in Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury vehicles. Bad battery cables can cause slow cranking or a grinding noise when trying to start an engine. ..,the wire connection inside the battery terminal connector corrodes easily. This will cause a voltage drop in the cable and result in low voltage being supplied to the starter. You can check for voltage drop in the cable using a digital voltmeter. Connect the negative probe of the voltmeter to the negative battery post (not the battery terminal connector). Then connect the positive probe to the starter case and crank the engine. The voltage reading should be less than .5 volts. A higher reading means there is resistance in the cable or the battery terminal connector. Clean the cable end and the battery terminal connector and test again. If the voltage reading is still higher than .5 volts, replace the cable and the battery terminal connector..."
Source: by genco1.com

Ground Location, Frame from Battery pic in a 94 5.8;

"...Frame ground just inboard of the R spring tower. The black battery wire goes from the front bolt of the engine mount (on the block) to this tab & up to the battery post, where a smaller black wire goes to the core support, providing a continuous ground path between the engine, frame, battery, & body..."
Source: by CodysBigBlueBronco (how much $???)

Frame Ground location (Passenger side Cross member above
engine mount)

by jowens1126

Intake Manifold to Block Strap on oassenger side Location pic in a 96 5. by bossind

Inspect STARTER RELAY GROUND; relay located on PASSENGER FENDER LINER, near battery, see Starter Relay pic in a 95

Source: by Shane C. (BigBlue, bigbluebronk)

"Long crank times may be traced to a sticking Idle Air Control (IAC) valve"
View attachment 181763

Al

 

[BroncMom]

I also had this problem with my 82. How close is the starter to the hot pipes? If you can't fit a fist between them the problem could be heat soak. The starter gets too hot when the truck is hot resulting in long crank starts. I solved it by going to a mini pmgr starter and replacing all starting system wires with 1/0 welding wire including the grounds (yes I'm one of those who went with ridiculously oversized wires) but she starts strong and consistently now every time hot or cold after a year of fighting with her trying to figure it out.
We really overestimate the continuity of 30+ year old wires. People assume because the casing looks good that everything inside is good when in reality it's probably more like little brittle bits of wire holding hands. Definitely replace...

 

[MS88Bronc]

I also had this problem with 82. How close is the starter to the hot pipes? If you can't fit a fist between them the problem could be heat soak. The starter gets too hot when the truck is hot. I solved it by going to a mini pmgr starter and replacing all starting system wires with 1/0 welding wire including the grounds (yes I'm one of those who went with ridiculously oversized wires) but she starts strong and consistently now every time hot or cold after a year of fighting with her trying to figure it out.
We really overestimate the continuity of 30+ year old wires. People assume because the casing looks good that everything inside is good when in reality it's probably more like little brittle bits of wire holding hands. Definitely replace...

I'll second this also - it's shocking how far corrosion can creep up a cable under the insulation. I've seen it go as far as 12-14" from the cable end.

 

[JuiceIsLoose]

Well I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I recently replaced the thermostat housing and thermostat due to a coolant leak and the temp gauge getting higher than I liked under load (probably 2/3rd or 3/4 of the way up to H). While replacing all of that I found that the coolant temp sensor was snapped in half. I replaced everything including the sensor, and have since not been able to get the engine temp up to the halfway point while driving (seems to stay between the N in normal and dead center).

The interesting part is that I have also not had the issue of the slow crank when the engine is hot ever since the temp sensor and thermostat were replaced. In fact I notice that the truck starts up a lot faster in general now, it almost sounds like a new car starting whereas before there was always a bit of drag on it.

The problem is that it's been crazy cold here recently and I'm wondering if that's helping keep the engine cool which helps it start up normally, I guess I won't know for sure until I can take it for a long drive in the warmer weather. Still going to replace the pos and neg battery cables as some of you suggested because I have new ones and the old ones look like they might be original. Appreciate all the help. Also has anyone ever done the thermostat housing replacement? The second bolt on that thing is a real SOB to get off and I want someone to share in my misery 😂

 

[BroncMom]

I replaced everything including the sensor, and have since not been able to get the engine temp up to the halfway point while driving (seems to stay between the N in normal and dead center).

That's about where mine sits most times when I drive it, but like you mentioned in this cold I'm lucky if I can get it past the first hash mark on a half hour drive.

What thermostat for you use? A 190°?

 

[robbz28]

That's about where mine sits most times when I drive it, but like you mentioned in this cold I'm lucky if I can get it past the first hash mark on a half hour drive.
View attachment 205990
What thermostat for you use? A 190°?

@BroncMom, looks like its time to give those needles a fresh coat of paint....i raided my wifes nail polish and found some Broadway Nails "bora bora" looked pretty darn good if i say so myself. For reference, the PRNDL Needle is the factree color. I only mention because i know you have been fairly meticulous in your build.

Also that little dab of rust on your shift lever can be cleaned up really fast with a squirt of Fast Orange hand cleaner on a damp paper towel...look like new.

 

[BroncMom]

@BroncMom, looks like its time to give those needles a fresh coat of paint....i raided my wifes nail polish and found some Broadway Nails "bora bora" looked pretty darn good if i say so myself. For reference, the PRNDL Needle is the factree color. I only mention because i know you have been fairly meticulous in your build.

View attachment 205996

Also that little dab of rust on your shift lever can be cleaned up really fast with a squirt of Fast Orange hand cleaner on a damp paper towel...look like new.

Was unaware they were supposed to all be orange 😂 I kinda like em light the cause it makes them easier to see at night until I replace the bulbs with LEDs... But honestly I'm scared to death to even touch them 🙁...And thanks for the tip on the rust...I was wondering how to tackle that... Was probably just gonna use a little naval jelly...👍

 

[robbz28]

Was unaware they were supposed to all be orange 😂 I kinda like em light the cause it makes them easier to see at night until I replace the bulbs with LEDs... But honestly I'm scared to death to even touch them 🙁...And thanks for the tip on the rust...I was wondering how to tackle that... Was probably just gonna use a little naval jelly...👍

I bought a harley several years back the previous owner had neglected his chrome, it was all speckled with rust, about like your shifter and that helped me get a really good deal on it as i argued a lot of the chrome would need replacing. I got it home and tried a few things on it that worked but i had to rub like the devil to get it to work. THen i tried an inconspicuous spot on my exhaust with a wet blue shop towel and a dab of fast orange hand cleaner and it cleaned that stuff off with minimal effort and did NOT scratch the chrome one single bit. I sat down on my stool and cleaned all the rust on that bike with a 6 dollar jug of fast orange and a roll of blue shop towels. It's now my "go to" cleaner when i come across rust or anything that needs a little grit to shine up. I wish i had taken a before picture...

 

[paul rondelli]

Does she stumble.... have a slight hesitation ..... when running at full to medium throttle when warm?

These OBS Broncos have the PIP sensor mounted on the side of the distributor. The sensor gives RPM data to the ECU. When the distributor starts to wear out ( from spinning at 2,000 rpm for 20 years) it starts to send bad data once the PIP heats up.

My ran fine when cold .... once she was running for a while .... she would stumble at full throttle.

I replaced the distributor, and she has run like a top ever since.

It really drives you crazy because it only happens when it heats up .... and never throws a check engine code.

Something to think about once you verified grounds and connections.

Here is a quote I pulled form a very old thread.

(15) 96 Bronco cranks, no start --- NO SPARK! | Page 2 | Bronco Forum - Full Size Ford Bronco Forum (fullsizebronco.com)

Big money on the PIP. I've had this go out on mine twice.

Here's the diagnostic key (Steve83 I think clued me in). When it DOESN'T start, look at the tach while cranking. If the tach needle is dead, there's a problem with the PIP because they are on the same circuit.

Mine would not start randomly for weeks, I'd replace everything with no success until I tracked it down correctly with the tach trick. I replaced the entire dist, since replacing the PIP only is a PITA, plus you are probably due for a new dist anyway...

It's good money too... PIP is $17 and couple of hours of time. Dist is $100 and about 20 min (plus replacing other key components in the ignition system).

good luck

 

[Gunfixr]

Well I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I recently replaced the thermostat housing and thermostat due to a coolant leak and the temp gauge getting higher than I liked under load (probably 2/3rd or 3/4 of the way up to H). While replacing all of that I found that the coolant temp sensor was snapped in half. I replaced everything including the sensor, and have since not been able to get the engine temp up to the halfway point while driving (seems to stay between the N in normal and dead center).

The interesting part is that I have also not had the issue of the slow crank when the engine is hot ever since the temp sensor and thermostat were replaced. In fact I notice that the truck starts up a lot faster in general now, it almost sounds like a new car starting whereas before there was always a bit of drag on it.

The problem is that it's been crazy cold here recently and I'm wondering if that's helping keep the engine cool which helps it start up normally, I guess I won't know for sure until I can take it for a long drive in the warmer weather. Still going to replace the pos and neg battery cables as some of you suggested because I have new ones and the old ones look like they might be original. Appreciate all the help. Also has anyone ever done the thermostat housing replacement? The second bolt on that thing is a real SOB to get off and I want someone to share in my misery 😂


View attachment 205988 View attachment 205989

So, your starting issue is fixed. Do you have heat? If you're getting warm air from heat and defrost, i'd leave it alone. Both my '93 and '89 run on the low side of "normal", especially when it's cold out, but I get heat.
The only way to know true temps is with an ir thermometer on the hoses, or an analogue temp gauge installed.

 

[mustangGT90210]

I bought a harley several years back the previous owner had neglected his chrome, it was all speckled with rust, about like your shifter and that helped me get a really good deal on it as i argued a lot of the chrome would need replacing. I got it home and tried a few things on it that worked but i had to rub like the devil to get it to work. THen i tried an inconspicuous spot on my exhaust with a wet blue shop towel and a dab of fast orange hand cleaner and it cleaned that stuff off with minimal effort and did NOT scratch the chrome one single bit. I sat down on my stool and cleaned all the rust on that bike with a 6 dollar jug of fast orange and a roll of blue shop towels. It's now my "go to" cleaner when i come across rust or anything that needs a little grit to shine up. I wish i had taken a before picture...

That's a crazy thing to read! I also have some rust on my shift lever, and also the front bumper. Ill give that a shot and report back!

 

[N2 Bronco's]

I just got a newer style starter out of the junk yard and it had a heat shield on it. You may wish to get one to keep your starter healthy. It’s cheap insurance.

 

[JB96]

I tried everything including all new wiring that was extra fat. The one thing that seemed to make a huge difference was to take one of grandma’s old oven mitts cut off the closed end and snake that thing on to the starter. I even tried a professional fiberglass wrap designed for starters and it lasted less than a year. The oven mitt is still going strong.