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Discussion Starter #1
I have a 1986 Ford Bronco with a 351W and a C-6 tranny. I am going to pull the engine and rebuild it or replace it with a reman. My question is this, If I remove all the smog stuff, including pump, cats, and all the associated vacuum lines and properly plug off the smog mounting holes in the rear of the heads and plug off the vaccum lines, will it negatively affect the running of the engine?
 

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MARBLE GARGLER!
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Your best bet would be to E-mail the EPA, and the DMV, Tell them what you want to do and give them your license plate no. They can give you the best advise.
 

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my 89 was smog ripped and chipped and ran fine yes its ilegal but so is adultery and im still waiting for my exwife to get arrested :histerica
 

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This is an "edited portion" from FSB member DGW1949 in a recent thread which should give you some idea of what effect emissions removal can have.......

To get the drift of WHY we have an EGR valve, ya need to have some background in emissions development as it applies to cylinder head design.

Way back when, engineers discovered that designing a wedge shape into the combustion chamber and placing the spark plug at the wide part of the wedge caused the flame-front of the burning gasses to slow down as it burned across the top of the piston during the beginning of the the power stroke. That in turn allowed for a higher compression ratio and a bit more timing advance WITHOUT detonation (AKA pinging). Such heads are said to have a high amount of "quench". Unfortunately they also produce a fair amount of unburned fuel particals which was an unacceptable condition as far as emissions goes.....hence the modern day (emissions) heads with their "fast burn", more "open" chambers.
Emissions-type, fast burn heads do a good job of reducing emissions...but....the down side is that unless a lower C/R is used or if the ignition-timing isn't reduced they also tend to detonate as engine load and/or RPM increases...hence the EGR valve. What the EGR valve does is introduce the correct amount of exhaust gas into the intake AND at the correct time so as to "dilute" the incoming fuel/air mixture which in turn slows the burn rate enough that "pinging" is eliminated without resorting to a rediculously low C/R and/or advance curve.

Ya NEED to retain the EGR system on a modern-day vehicle And it needs to function proper.

Hope this helps!


Good Luck ~ :thumbup
 

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Does this in theory also apply to gasoline engines?

- EGR deletion in diesel engines is considered justifiable by a wide range of people, including the

environmentally conscious. Although deleting the EGR system results in increased NOx level; hydrocarbon

emissions, particulates, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide are drastically reduced. Furthermore, EGR

deletion results in an increase in fuel economy as high as 25%. Exhaust gas recirculated back into the

cylinders adds wear-inducing contaminants and causes an increase engine oil acidity, which can result in an

inefficient, poorly running engine. -

I know diesel engines use a different fuel, but we are still talking about adding contaminents to our engines.
Anyone who has rebuilt their engine knows what the intake looks like, not to mention the difference
between the intake and exhaust valves.

spelling
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Your best bet would be to E-mail the EPA, and the DMV, Tell them what you want to do and give them your license plate no. They can give you the best advise.
Why are you people in CA so pissed off when someone else does something you only wish you could do? Move out of that communist state and join the rest of us in the real world. The Constitution says "By the people, For the people". Well, It'll be done by me, for me!
 

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This is an "edited portion" from FSB member DGW1949 in a recent thread which should give you some idea of what effect emissions removal can have.......

To get the drift of WHY we have an EGR valve, ya need to have some background in emissions development as it applies to cylinder head design.

Way back when, engineers discovered that designing a wedge shape into the combustion chamber and placing the spark plug at the wide part of the wedge caused the flame-front of the burning gasses to slow down as it burned across the top of the piston during the beginning of the the power stroke. That in turn allowed for a higher compression ratio and a bit more timing advance WITHOUT detonation (AKA pinging). Such heads are said to have a high amount of "quench". Unfortunately they also produce a fair amount of unburned fuel particals which was an unacceptable condition as far as emissions goes.....hence the modern day (emissions) heads with their "fast burn", more "open" chambers.
Emissions-type, fast burn heads do a good job of reducing emissions...but....the down side is that unless a lower C/R is used or if the ignition-timing isn't reduced they also tend to detonate as engine load and/or RPM increases...hence the EGR valve. What the EGR valve does is introduce the correct amount of exhaust gas into the intake AND at the correct time so as to "dilute" the incoming fuel/air mixture which in turn slows the burn rate enough that "pinging" is eliminated without resorting to a rediculously low C/R and/or advance curve.

Ya NEED to retain the EGR system on a modern-day vehicle And it needs to function proper.

Hope this helps!


Good Luck ~ :thumbup
I could have sworn the EGR was used only at part throttle cruise speeds. nothing else.
 

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Does this in theory also apply to gasoline engines?

- EGR deletion in diesel engines is considered justifiable by a wide range of people, including the

environmentally conscious. Although deleting the EGR system results in increased NOx level; hydrocarbon

emissions, particulates, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide are drastically reduced. Furthermore, EGR

deletion results in an increase in fuel economy as high as 25%. Exhaust gas recirculated back into the

cylinders adds wear-inducing contaminants and causes an increase engine oil acidity, which can result in an

inefficient, poorly running engine. -

I know diesel engines use a different fuel, but we are still talking about adding contaminents to our engines.
Anyone who has rebuilt their engine knows what the intake looks like, not to mention the difference
between the intake and exhaust valves.

spelling
my 01 diesel has no emissions junk on it from the factory.
 

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I could have sworn the EGR was used only at part throttle cruise speeds. nothing else.
X2 All the theory I have read indicate the same.
 

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MARBLE GARGLER!
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WellBucket, I do apoligize for my smart azzed post. i do not speak for the state of california as im just one guy, my reasoning on the subject is just that the hole in the ozone layer and other problems arent from us californians and our cars.... its from cars. i would love it if everything was 1967-ish when it comes to automobiles and lack of emisions, But the air quality would be unbearable by now. When people remove their smog equiptment they often render a vehicle un-saleable, un-regeserable and ultimatly condemn it- There is a guy on this board right now who has to move but his Bronco is not smogable. "Us Californians".... ill forgive that mess this time but remember, this aint a town of the people its a town of a few rich people and their money.
 

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i had almost the same set up, and when i was 21, did the same thing. it ran fine.

i am now much older, and will be looking to put EFI and emissions on it, when i next pull the engine for a rebuild.
 

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The hole in the ozone is not from cars, its from alot of things. Cars may be a very small percentage of the problem. People who modify their cars are such a small percentage of the total, it's not even worth mentioning. Think about it, most people dont ever work on their cars. So as the fleet gets newer, if the polution stuff works, it will eliminate cars as a sorce of polution.

Some polution stuff is counterproductive. Case in point is the air pump. I always thought tha it's purpose was to inject air for the cats to burn the rest of the fuel mixture. I found out it's main purpose is to dilute the exhaust with clean air before it goes out the pipe. (because they test at the pipe for parts per million of polutants) Of course, that doesnt reduce the polutants, it just mixes clean air before rather after it goes out. Because the air pump uses power, you have somewhat reduced millage. So the end result is you burn more fuel (making more polutants) with the air pump.
 

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Forward Some Money
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Why are you people in CA so pissed off when someone else does something you only wish you could do? Move out of that communist state and join the rest of us in the real world. The Constitution says "By the people, For the people". Well, It'll be done by me, for me!


It's not JUST California, although, because of their car population, and longevity of their cars, their state standards are tougher.

EPA and emissions laws are FEDERAL and carry some pretty stiff fines for removal.

I don't live in California, but I am old enough to know WHY the emissions equipment was created in the first place. Why would you think it's "ok" to violate laws intended on protecing the environment that we all SHARE?
 

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Forward Some Money
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........"and join the rest of us in the real world. The Constitution says "By the people, For the people". Well, It'll be done by me, for me!
BTW, that is probably the biggest "I got my head up my ass - It's all about "me"....." comment I have seen.
 

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The Anti Yam!
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will it negatively affect the running of the engine?
Not on a carbed engine.

However, it is a federal crime to remove an operating emissions control device on a street driven vehicle.

And when federal emissions testing is mandated, you may have to put it all back on.
 

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I could have sworn the EGR was used only at part throttle cruise speeds. nothing else.
That is correct.
In the old (carburetor) days, the EGR on a Ford worked off of a vacume switching device that used carb vacume to introduce manifold vacume at a predetermined throttle position. GM used a specific EGR-port just above the throttle plate and they continued that on their early TB injection. With today's mutiport EFI engines, we see electronic devices being used to activate manifold vacume going to the EGR. In either case, EGR vacume disapperes at WOT simply because there aint none to be had.
Considering how seldom one runs an engine at WOT though, a temporary interuption of the EGR system is almost a non-issue as far as it's overall emissions goes.

And yeah, one might can remove the EGR valve and not notice any ill effects. That's because today we have knock sensors, computerized fuel enrichment capability, default modes, etc, etc....all the things that are built into modern engine management that keep it running in as an efficent a manner as it's circumstances permit. That said, you can bet that if you have an engine which uses a smog-type head and piston design, you will not get by without an EGR valve unless SOMETHING else is done to counteract the increase in combustion temps that you'll surely cause.....be it something you do, or something that your computer automaticly does for you.

In short, this aint the 70's any more. One can't just go to ripping unwanted (or un-understood) componants off his engine and expect it run faster/better/cheaper/longer. Aint going to happen.

DGW
 

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im in the solar industry and heavily believe in preserving the beautiful and wild places for our children but last time i checked a mans truck is his and if he chooses to alter that vehicle HE BOUGHT IT this is not a political forum this is a performance forum and a pump that blows air into the exhaust so ford corp can dodge a bullet for a time being is a stupid ideas an an example of how big business gets a way with murder and we get the shaft rip it off freedom means choices, that being said i agree with the fact you need to fully understand the choices your making and their consequences both to you and your bronc
 

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The Anti Yam!
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last time i checked a mans truck is his and if he chooses to alter that vehicle HE BOUGHT IT
Correct.

However, as this states...
it is a federal crime to remove an operating emissions control device on a street driven vehicle.
He is not free to operate it on roads that receive government funds after he has done certain modifications.

this is not a political forum this is a performance forum
Wrong....This is FSB :histerica

On EEC-IV as long as the computer receives a closed signal from the EVP (There are several ways to do this) it assumes the EGR is closed and alters the A/F ration to be correct without the introduction of inert gasses from the EGR.

But unlike the old Carbed setups, there is NO reason to do this, you gain NO PERFORMANCE from removing it. The only valid reasons to remove are the following.

1. It's broke and there is no emissions testing in your area and you don't care about pollution.

2. It is a show vehicle that is driven less than 1,000 miles per year and the engine compartment must be up to showcar standards and need to get rid of every single wire and vacuum hose to achieve that "Look"

3. You deliberately WANT to create as much pollution as possible.

I do not run an Air Injection system on my Bronco, it was removed by my Dad before he gave me the Bronco. I do run an EGR and good High flow 3-way cats and I pass Georgia's emissions test's with flying colors.



My new modern cat's don't need the air injection to do there job as well as the old ones with the air injection.

My Bronco is as of this year exempt from emissions testing in the state of Georgia due to age, but strangely I have no urge to remove the EGR or cat's.
 
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