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Discussion Starter #1
Engine build-ups are discussed a lot on here. Most people seem to think that bigger is better. This is not always the case. A big factor is power to weight. You can over power a vehicle. For you guys thinking about massive HP under the hood think about re-gearing to keep the vehicle drivable. Basically if your Bronco performs ok and you are going to do mods that give 100 HP or less there isn’t much to worry about. Going over that you should think about different gears or larger tires or both. Think about it this way, a few years back Chevy put a selector on the Vette that would allow max acceleration without wheel spin. The end result was reduced ¼ mile times, so much so that NHRA outlawed it for racing. The same applies to a 4X4. Breaking traction is not good.

Heads seem to be a popular upgrade. Most of the aluminum heads are not designed for off road applications. The real advantage of aluminum heads is weight reduction. Weight is important to drag and street racers, not a real concern to off roaders. You can port and polish cast iron heads and put in larger valves to almost the same standards that you can get most of the after market heads for a lot less money. Aluminum heads have a greater tendency to crack when over heated too.

Electronic fuel injection has been around a long time now. It is very reliable and not hard to maintain. Why anyone would want to change over to a carb is beyond me. A carbed engine is about 60% efficient. Newer EFI engines with multiport are closer to 80% efficient. This is based on total amount of energy the gas is capable of producing.

Ignition mods are very common too. Lots of people think that an 80,000-volt coil is going to help them out. Don’t believe the hype! It won’t unless they are very bad about tune-ups, are running a very wide gap or in an out and out racing engine. The coil is capable of producing the advertised voltage but the plugs are going to fire whenever there is enough electricity to jump the gap. The 80k figure is the max output, a new set of plugs, gapped to specs will fire at far less than that, in fact somewhere around 6-20k on engines requiring a .042 gap. The real advantages that electronic ignition gave us was better cold startups and longer tune-up intervals. Most aftermarket performance distributors for Ford and Chevy are mere copies of the OEM units with impressive looking coils and wires. On the older systems they can give you a better than stock timing curve (you can get add in kits to do the same with a stock unit) but on the EFI engines the computer controls the timing and to change the curve you have to install a new chip.

I know a lot of you want to lift your trucks and put larger tires on em (I have 31s on mine). Great, each to his own. You should think about what it does to the vehicle, like changing the center of gravity and other geometrics designed into the truck. I not saying don’t do it but just to think about what it does to the overall safety of you and the truck and drive accordingly.



Just my 2 cents!
 

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Mr. Asks Alot
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gears let you feel alot more power than a bigger engine does...want more power...go lower gears
 

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Honeynut Cheerios Urine
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I know a lot of you want to lift your trucks and put larger tires on em (I have 31s on mine). Great, each to his own. You should think about what it does to the vehicle, like changing the center of gravity and other geometrics designed into the truck. I not saying don’t do it but just to think about what it does to the overall safety of you and the truck and drive accordingly.
I think everyone thinks about that..as everything they do suspension wise, shocks..coils..swaybar removal..WILL have an effect on their handling/vehicle ride, if it didnt..why bother

its cheaper to do upgrades on the drivetrain like gears than to the engine, and you'll get more "out of it", and saves your tranny some wear n tear as well



Basically if your Bronco performs ok and you are going to do mods that give 100 HP or less there isn’t much to worry about. Going over that you should think about different gears or larger tires or both.
you said not to go over 100HP without regearing? well..why not? wouldnt it depend in the application you had? Mud? cleaning out tires quickly...

where did that come from? :shrug
 

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The Anti Yam!
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oldtanker said:
Engine build-ups are discussed a lot on here. Most people seem to think that bigger is better. This is not always the case. A big factor is power to weight. You can over power a vehicle. For you guys thinking about massive HP under the hood think about re-gearing to keep the vehicle drivable. Basically if your Bronco performs ok and you are going to do mods that give 100 HP or less there isn’t much to worry about. Going over that you should think about different gears or larger tires or both. Think about it this way, a few years back Chevy put a selector on the Vette that would allow max acceleration without wheel spin. The end result was reduced ¼ mile times, so much so that NHRA outlawed it for racing. The same applies to a 4X4. Breaking traction is not good.
So if I build a verry stout 351w I should take out my 4.56:1's and put my old 3.55:1's back in becouse I may spin 38" Boggers from the line at the drag strip? WTF, verry few people on here race ther broncos at the strip and those that do know a hell of a lot more about it than you do. Many of us need those powerfull engines and low gears to tow heavy loads and counteract large tires. Also those of us that wheel need those low gears so that we have a low crawl ratio.


JoeBob1901 said:
you said not to go over 100HP without regearing? well..why not? wouldnt it depend in the application you had? Mud? cleaning out tires quickly...

where did that come from? :shrug
He is saying that if you add 100hp or more to your bronco you should gear the rear end up (numericly higher), to keep from having so much power that you break the tires loose and spin :wacko



oldtanker said:
I know a lot of you want to lift your trucks and put larger tires on em (I have 31s on mine). Great, each to his own. You should think about what it does to the vehicle, like changing the center of gravity and other geometrics designed into the truck. I not saying don’t do it but just to think about what it does to the overall safety of you and the truck and drive accordingly.
Thanks for the speach dad, I'm glad your here to tell me these things. :twak

And exactly how is this general repair and tech help?
Looks more like a rant for the Anything else forum

oldtanker said:
Just my 2 cents!
Here is mine, have a Coke and a smile and STFU :goodfinge
(j/k) :toothless


What exactly brout this rant on Mr OldTanker :shrug
I just dont understand what would cause you to just wright all this stuff down and post it in the middle of the tech forum?


No disrespect meant, just dont understand thats all
 

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Ex Navy Nuke
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oldtanker said:
Engine build-ups are discussed a lot on here.

For you guys thinking about massive HP under the hood think about re-gearing to keep the vehicle drivable.

Heads seem to be a popular upgrade. Most of the aluminum heads are not designed for off road applications. The real advantage of aluminum heads is weight reduction. Weight is important to drag and street racers, not a real concern to off roaders.

Aluminum heads have a greater tendency to crack when over heated too.

Electronic fuel injection has been around a long time now. It is very reliable and not hard to maintain. Why anyone would want to change over to a carb is beyond me. A carbed engine is about 60% efficient. Newer EFI engines with multiport are closer to 80% efficient. This is based on total amount of energy the gas is capable of producing.

Ignition mods are very common too. Lots of people think that an 80,000-volt coil is going to help them out. Don’t believe the hype! It won’t unless they are very bad about tune-ups, are running a very wide gap or in an out and out racing engine.

I know a lot of you want to lift your trucks and put larger tires on em (I have 31s on mine). Great, each to his own. You should think about what it does to the vehicle, like changing the center of gravity and other geometrics designed into the truck. I not saying don’t do it but just to think about what it does to the overall safety of you and the truck and drive accordingly.



Just my 2 cents!

Well thanks for lesson!

1- Yup engine mods are discussed a lot on here.

2- Most guys aren't thinking about massive HP they're thinking about increased torque since that what really counts for these heavy rigs. And the reason most guys are talking about engine improvements before re-gearing is because if you look at a calendar the newest Bronco is 10 years old and most of the ones owned by people on here are 15 y/o or older so it's time to refresh the engine anyway not the gears.

3- How exactly would one go about designing a head for an off road application? Yes weight reduction is an advantage to alum heads; how about the ability to run higher compression on pump gas without pinging? Yes alum heads can crack (or warp) if overheated so don't overheat, alot of other bad things can happen too. If they weren't designed for daily driving then why do so many vehicles come stock with alum heads now? Some alum heads are very competitively priced now, not much more and in some cases even a little cheaper than iron.

4- I agree with EFI over carb.

5- The guys that run upgraded ignition do run a bigger gap on their plugs, that's why they do see an improvement.

6- I think everybody that lifts their truck is aware that it changes the COG and handling characteristics. Most do it for off roading, some for looks but it their truck and do you really think you're telling us anything we don't already know? I know I'm alot safer in my truck than I would be in most other vehicles available out there. Are one of those tree-hugging anti SUV trolls here to stir up crap? If not and you're just here to show off your vast knowledge in an attempt to impress us then guess what? You didn't succeed.
 

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Practicing Infidel
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oldtanker said:
Engine build-ups are discussed a lot on here. Most people seem to think that bigger is better. This is not always the case. A big factor is power to weight. You can over power a vehicle. For you guys thinking about massive HP under the hood think about re-gearing to keep the vehicle drivable. Basically if your Bronco performs ok and you are going to do mods that give 100 HP or less there isn’t much to worry about. Going over that you should think about different gears or larger tires or both. Think about it this way, a few years back Chevy put a selector on the Vette that would allow max acceleration without wheel spin. The end result was reduced ¼ mile times, so much so that NHRA outlawed it for racing. The same applies to a 4X4. Breaking traction is not good.

I'll play !

Nice to see the NHRA actually stood up to it's biggest complainer and benefactor for once. I agree with the gearing to a point. After you pass a certin tire size a 302 and regearing puts too much strain on driveline components, IMHO. Moving to a larger engine and drivetrain, at that point, makes sense to me.

Heads seem to be a popular upgrade. Most of the aluminum heads are not designed for off road applications. The real advantage of aluminum heads is weight reduction. Weight is important to drag and street racers, not a real concern to off roaders. You can port and polish cast iron heads and put in larger valves to almost the same standards that you can get most of the after market heads for a lot less money. Aluminum heads have a greater tendency to crack when over heated too.

I'm probably one of the few people here who as truly ported heads, not just played around in the bowls, ignored the 90 and hogged out the first 3" of the intake port, like a ham fisted, cheese eating GM owner.

I agree it can be done, but outside the Chevy and Mopar motors there's not many porting templates available for Fords(certinally NONE for pure torque increases). Lets face it, even with porting templates, a first timer is only going to be in the ball park.

I, for one, am not willing to stack up my efforts against a set of state of the art, emissions legal AFR heads. Man, my pants got tighter than Paige Davis gets them when I read that 302 article on the AFR low end 165 emission heads.

Like you said HP gains ain't worth a damn in a 4X4 if they occur too high up or at the cost of low end torque loss. 100 extra of each ! at useable rpms no less ! That to me is worth the big bucks they cost !

Most of these heads actually relocate the floor and roof of the ports and reconfigure the heads to accomodate the all important 90 degree turn improvements, which no stock heads (even re-welded and re-ported) can possibly match (in the hands of an expensive professional porter).

Start adding up the machining costs of used heads; planing, hot tanking, magnafluxing ("sorry sir you just ported two anchors"), seat removeal and installation, guise instalation, spring seat machining. People don't work for free !

Now add the parts; new low-po stock(low flow); valves, seats to press in, guides to press in, springs, retainers, keepers. What about the cost of a new hotter cam (that's gonna take the motor, especially smaller V-8s, further away from reliable).

Now you're going to need all the fancy valvetrain component upgrades such as;lifters, hotter springs, possibly rockers, special pushrods and other valvetrain upgrades required.

Lets not forget your fancy ported heads are now 20 ?, 30? years old. Suddenly AFR heads are looking not so expensive when you add together all the hidden costs of rebuilding and porting existing heads.

Electronic fuel injection has been around a long time now. It is very reliable and not hard to maintain. Why anyone would want to change over to a carb is beyond me. A carbed engine is about 60% efficient. Newer EFI engines with multiport are closer to 80% efficient. This is based on total amount of energy the gas is capable of producing.

No arguement there, and I was an avid carb tuner from way back.

Ignition mods are very common too. Lots of people think that an 80,000-volt coil is going to help them out. Don’t believe the hype! It won’t unless they are very bad about tune-ups, are running a very wide gap or in an out and out racing engine. The coil is capable of producing the advertised voltage but the plugs are going to fire whenever there is enough electricity to jump the gap. The 80k figure is the max output, a new set of plugs, gapped to specs will fire at far less than that, in fact somewhere around 6-20k on engines requiring a .042 gap. The real advantages that electronic ignition gave us was better cold startups and longer tune-up intervals. Most aftermarket performance distributors for Ford and Chevy are mere copies of the OEM units with impressive looking coils and wires. On the older systems they can give you a better than stock timing curve (you can get add in kits to do the same with a stock unit) but on the EFI engines the computer controls the timing and to change the curve you have to install a new chip.

Got a bone to pick with you there. I can go about it two ways. First I can tell you I did personally witness major power and mileage increases with ignition upgrades.

The second way starts with an admission that yes my ignition parts WERE old and worn. I'd also have to say "whose aren't?". The newest Bronco is now 10 model years old and Ford, like every other manufacturer, does not sell stock replacement components as good as they were right off the assembly line, they just are not as good.

There are gains to be made by bumping the base timing ahead slightly as well. I've super tuned three 5.0 litres in three vastly different Ford vehicles using the wide gap, cheap plug, aftermarket wires and MSD coil upgrade.

There is no doubt in my mind, or the minds of the other owners,this is a vastly superior spark delivery upgrade to stock and it shows the proofin mileage and performance.

I know a lot of you want to lift your trucks and put larger tires on em (I have 31s on mine). Great, each to his own. You should think about what it does to the vehicle, like changing the center of gravity and other geometrics designed into the truck. I not saying don’t do it but just to think about what it does to the overall safety of you and the truck and drive accordingly.

Enjoyed responding to your posted opinions Old tanker

Sixlitre



Just my 2 cents!
Sixlitre
 

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well I can tell you for one I doubled the horse power out of my stock engine. Thats if I did not even go past double. maybe 2.25 times that what it was from stock. It is very usable. Changing just the gear ratios would have helped but I know I would not still be able to drive up the mountains @ 70mph on the highways with out slowing to a crawl.

Lets start there.

Oh yeah I like EFI but I love my carb. Very simple design. Easy to fix.
 

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Gacknar said:
So if I build a verry stout 351w I should take out my 4.56:1's and put my old 3.55:1's back in becouse I may spin 38" Boggers from the line at the drag strip? WTF, verry few people on here race ther broncos at the strip and those that do know a hell of a lot more about it than you do. Many of us need those powerfull engines and low gears to tow heavy loads and counteract large tires. Also those of us that wheel need those low gears so that we have a low crawl ratio.
I think you're agreeing with him Gacknar. I think, in a nutshell, what he is saying is a spinning tire is a wasted tire. It's a little hard to understand, but the way I read it you and he were saying basically the same thing. Jumping big numbers in horsepower is only really useful offroad if you're running lower gears and bigger tires. Otherwise that big engine's just gonna spin the hell out of your stock tires and gears. Correct me if I'm wrong tanker, but that's what I got from it.

You've gotta admit, some people do mod their trucks outside of the useful range of what they have. It looks and sounds nice, but at a certain point more HP is just for show unless you work on other parts too. What use is a big bullet if you've got a little gun to fire it from?

brad
 

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The Anti Yam!
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darb said:
I think you're agreeing with him Gacknar.
The part in red is called sarcasum

Gacknar said:
So if I build a verry stout 351w I should take out my 4.56:1's and put my old 3.55:1's back in becouse I may spin 38" Boggers from the line at the drag strip? WTF, verry few people on here race ther broncos at the strip and those that do know a hell of a lot more about it than you do. Many of us need those powerfull engines and low gears to tow heavy loads and counteract large tires. Also those of us that wheel need those low gears so that we have a low crawl ratio.
He is saying that if you build a hi power engine you need to put in a taller (neumaricly lower) gear in to keep from spinning your tires at launch. Becouse higher gears will not allow you to put as much tourqe to the tire as lower ones will.

Im saying we want hi power engines and lower gears (neumaricly higher) for towing and having low crawl ratios, and being able to climb up hills on the enterstate without downshifting, and most importantly counteracting big tires.

Even with a built 351 and 4.88:1 gears I would be verry impreased if somone could spin 38" boggers from a dead stop with an automatic in a strait line on pavement.
 

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TTB Hater of course
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It seems to me the talk about wheelspin is coming from a track standpoint (kinda like how old timers think the 9" holds up great on the track, so it must hold up great on the trail). For those of us that 'wheel and don't race our Broncos as Gacknar said, everything is turned on it's head. When you're on the trail you're not on a controlled surface like at a track, and oftentimes wheelspin is embraced. You often MUST HAVE wheel spin to scramble up a climb or ledge, and you want to have a motor that will provide that at the blip of the throttle. This isn't saying you want a huge motor that makes power at 5k and redlines at 9k, in fact any stock 302 or 351 fits the bill.

Compare a stock 302/351W with the usual BW1356 in low range and, say 4.10s in the diffs to a Toy w 22R, 4:1 case and 5.13s in the diffs.......and you'll find the Toy has a much harder time generating useful wheelspin (let's assume tire sizes are equal of course).

Now I know the discussion is not about Toys but this is an extreme illustration of how gearing does not make up for lack of cubes.
 

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Just my 2 cents![/QUOTE]

Something to think about.

This is all he wanted you to do guys/gals, think about it. Obviously you did, that's why you've responded so elegantly with your opinions. I think this is great, I'm learning more from all of you than I did from my old man in 15 years of living w/him, and he builds motors better than most. He just didn't have the patience to teach his kids. Keep it up. I'm very interested in these responses.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
All I said was think about it. Don’t take it the wrong way, yes I’m older but I have a lot more experience on my side too. Sometimes you can get more bang for your buck without building/buying a $3,500 engine with some engine mods and doing some stuff to the drive train and suspension. For example, a 302 EFI will pick up about 30HP with a cold air system and headers. Cost about a buck a pony. As far as engine mods go pretty cheap.

I’ve owned a truck with a 460 (loved it) and currently have an F250 with a 400 and my Bronco with the 5.0 EFI. Last week I pull a 4100 pound 72 Cougar home on a 1600-pound trailer with the Bronco, no problem with power at all. My first 4X4 was a 70 IHC Scout with a small 6 and an auto tranny. The only complaint I had was with towing power. It would mud and do everything else I ask of it.

My daughters 20 yo boyfriend lifted his 88 F150 to look cool. I have no problem with that. It’s his truck. When I ask him about drivability and the COG he had no idea. So do most of the younger people here that I know. That is why I mentioned it. IF you are doing serious off roading and need the big lift and monster tires then by all means do it.
 

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Zombie Hunter
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So...

The 1000 RWHP, 20" lift with 80" tires isn't a good idea? <just kiddin'>

I read it, it helped. There are people here that have forgotten more about Ford motors than i will ever know. Granted i know about center of gravity and handling, and Horsepower gains. But it's still nice to see one of the older members worried about the younger members, thats what really makes this a nice place to visit. You can go anywhere to get advice, but it's hard to get advice from someone that actually cares.

And i agree with MudMad, i am learned more from you guys in the last few months than i have learned from anyone in the last 30. Plus you guys make it fun, it's always a blast to go back and forth with Gacknar about Yams, or Damager about my sister, or Pepe, well that mostly goes forth, he rips on me for everything, but for some reason i still spend a lot of time here. It's fun! and a learning experience on top of it!

Thats just my 1/2 cent.
 

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oldtanker said:
For example, a 302 EFI will pick up about 30HP with a cold air system and headers. Cost about a buck a pony. As far as engine mods go pretty cheap.
Where can I get headers for $30?
 

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I am just waiting for Steve83 to weigh in on this one....he is da man you know!
 

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i do not agree that efi is better than carb. my carbed bronco is faster and gets better mileage than my friends similar equiped 86 bronco with efi and we both have new 351's with under 10,000 miles. I personally have not had good experiences with fuel injected engines and have no complaints about carbs, especially when it comes to tuning, maintenance, cost of parts, etc.
 

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bluebronco1966 said:
i do not agree that efi is better than carb. my carbed bronco is faster and gets better mileage than my friends similar equiped 86 bronco with efi and we both have new 351's with under 10,000 miles. I personally have not had good experiences with fuel injected engines and have no complaints about carbs, especially when it comes to tuning, maintenance, cost of parts, etc.
Wait til you own something with EFI.....you will never look back
 
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