167 could be operator error. Did you goose the engine when doing the KOER? If not, it would not have opportunity to read the TPS.
spout in--ping. spout out--no ping.
Hi everyone. I bought a bronco about a month ago, and decided to complete the sixlitre upgrade today. I replaced the plugs, wires, coil, and cap (ordered the wrong rotor, so didn't replace that). After replacing those parts, I went to remove the spout connector, and discovered that it was not there. After some research, I found that the spout connector is no more than a jumper wire to allow the truck to advance/retard its timing automatically. So, with the spout out--I adjusted the timing to 13.5*. I found a piece of wire to install as a temporary spout connector, then took the truck on a test drive. While doing this, i noticed a crazy amount of pinging when the engine was loaded (foot in the pedal or climbing a hill). I retarded the timing a bit, and it still pinged. I did this a couple times and the problem never went away. Eventually, I set the timing back to 10* and the pinging did not go away. THEN, i pulled the spout connector back out and ran the truck at stock timing and it never pinged. So basically, when the truck automatically controls its timing, it pings. When it's set at 10* with no varying--no ping.
In my mind, whatever it is that tells the "computer" what it needs to do to the timing is lying. Can anybody explain that system to me?
Any suggestions? I'm an electrical troubleshooter for a living, however I'm kind of green when it comes to understanding how this this whole system works. Thanks for your help.
p.s. I wonder if the person i bought the vehicle from, had removed the spout connector to "fix" their pinging issue. just a thought.
In my mind, whatever it is that tells the "computer" what it needs to do to the timing is lying. Can anybody explain that system to me?
Any suggestions? I'm an electrical troubleshooter for a living, however I'm kind of green when it comes to understanding how this this whole system works. Thanks for your help.
p.s. I wonder if the person i bought the vehicle from, had removed the spout connector to "fix" their pinging issue. just a thought.
21 - 40 of 216 Posts
go to the junkyard and get a spout plug. Then see if that code goes away. if not you probably have a wiring problem
I did hit the gas pedal pretty hard the first time i tested it, but the 2nd and 3rd times i was a little more gradual. Oreilly closed before I could go get a new tps, however i looked it over and it looks like something (im assuming fuel) has leaked between the intake manifold and where the tps bolts on to the manifold at the bottom. would fuel be up that high? whenever i perform the KOER test; does it show historical codes? if so, I wonder if the "spout circuit open" fault was caused by it running forever with the spout out. I'm prolly gonna replace the tps tomorrow. I'll let you know the outcome. I think were onto something now. :rockon
KOER test doesn't give you any history codes, its all current that is happening right then. The continous memory codes(history codes) are during the KOEO test, after the seperator blink.
What you need to understand about the codes... Just because you get a code, does not mean you need to replace that part. This rule applies to any vehicle-OBDI or OBDII. You need to run through the actual troubleshooting trees for the codes. On the KOER test, it sounds like you did not depress the gas pedal properly at the end of the test after the flash. (It is a full-throttle, quick stomp.) If the TPS was indeed faulty, you should get either a ckt open or ckt shorted code, which you do not have. I would not change it yet until you know more. You still have a spout issue. Replace the spout, then clear the computer codes (Disconnect the battery for 30 seconds minimum). I am also concerned with code 212-that could be a wiring problem or just a TFI issue.
I jumped on the 167 code because that's exactly what my truck was throwing last month. Repeated the test twice after getting the first code, just to make sure I did the test right. It was my first time ever pulling codes. Cleared codes between each test just to make sure.
Replaced the TPS, problem was solved in my case.
I agree with everyone else though. Fix the obvious first. SPOUT needs to be addressed first, then pull codes again after setting base timing per the manual. The manual for the code reader I got outlines the proper base timing procedure. Don't stop after setting timing with SPOUT off. Do the next step and check initial advance with SPOUT in, and make sure you are getting proper initial advance. The manual explains this procedure. This will tell you if the computer is actually controlling the advance curve.
Pinpoint tests from there....
Replaced the TPS, problem was solved in my case.
I agree with everyone else though. Fix the obvious first. SPOUT needs to be addressed first, then pull codes again after setting base timing per the manual. The manual for the code reader I got outlines the proper base timing procedure. Don't stop after setting timing with SPOUT off. Do the next step and check initial advance with SPOUT in, and make sure you are getting proper initial advance. The manual explains this procedure. This will tell you if the computer is actually controlling the advance curve.
Pinpoint tests from there....
I just want to start by tell you guys that you are great. Without your suggestions I would be utterly lost. However, now that i've done my KOER the correct way (smashing the accelerator all the way down), I only have one code remaining. After 3 tests, I'm coming up with the 213 spout circuit open. I would go get a spout connector however there are no junkyards with in a short drive of me. Anyhoo, I tested my whole spout circuit from the TFI/ICM to the EEC with 0 ohms of resistance showing. This tells me that my spout circuit is intact from EEC to ICM. Now what? replace the ICM? replace the EEC? Does anyone know if the spout circuit is actually tested for continuity during the KOER test or does it just assume the spout circuit is open if the EEC cant control the advance/retard? Also, I have a new symptom. After Seafoaming the engine this weekend, I no longer have cruise control function. Horn works, and there is a brand new clock spring in--so i'm sure its not clockspring. I don't know if that points us in one direction or the other. Any ideas?
Next time I go to the junkyard I will grab a spout for you and just put it in an envelope and mail it. PM me if youre interested, ill probably be going wednesday.
Updates
Well, I'm still stuck with my 213 spout circuit open/ 212 spout open or grounded. I've replaced the ignition module, and checked the continuity of the spout circuit from ECC to Ignition module with 0 ohms of resistance. I also checked out my spout circuit voltage and have read 5 to 6 volts when running. does anyone have any other ideas? I'm not exactly sure how to check my voltages to my ignition module as far as PIP, start, and ground due to not having an accurate schematic of the circuits. Does the 213 code indicate that there is an open/ground in the spout circuit? or does it just indicate that the ecc can't control the timing? Reason i ask is b/c i need to know if i need to check other circuits as well. any ideas? It seems like there's been alot of people that have had these same issues on the forums, however they never get resolved and/or they never post their findings. I'm really at a loss here. :barf
Well, I'm still stuck with my 213 spout circuit open/ 212 spout open or grounded. I've replaced the ignition module, and checked the continuity of the spout circuit from ECC to Ignition module with 0 ohms of resistance. I also checked out my spout circuit voltage and have read 5 to 6 volts when running. does anyone have any other ideas? I'm not exactly sure how to check my voltages to my ignition module as far as PIP, start, and ground due to not having an accurate schematic of the circuits. Does the 213 code indicate that there is an open/ground in the spout circuit? or does it just indicate that the ecc can't control the timing? Reason i ask is b/c i need to know if i need to check other circuits as well. any ideas? It seems like there's been alot of people that have had these same issues on the forums, however they never get resolved and/or they never post their findings. I'm really at a loss here. :barf
yo,
The code may have been set if you disconnected the battery.
Clear the code the normal way with STI wire but do not disconnect the battery.
Check codes to make sure it is gone.
Drive it then recheck codes.
DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODE (DTC) 213: CHECK FOR POWER TO PCM
Key On Engine Running 213 code:
NOTE:
Before proceeding with this Pinpoint Test, verify that the base timing check in Diagnostic Subroutine has been performed.
Key off.
Disconnect Powertrain Control Module (PCM). Inspect for damaged or pushed out pins, corrosion, loose wires, etc. Service as necessary.
PCM disconnected. (be careful, I hate to touch that connector!)
Key on, engine off.
Measure voltage between Test Pin 37 and Pin 40.
Measure voltage between Test Pin 57 and Pin 60.
Is each voltage greater than 10.5 volts?
If not;
see DTC 211 in TSB 95-15-11 for possible open/short location
Hesitation, Stumble, Stall, Miss, No Start, No Spark and/or Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) 211 TSB 95-15-11 for 93-95 (Shorts in Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) & Spark Output (SPOUT); "..The symptoms may occur during any drive mode or at idle. These concerns may be caused by the shielding drain wire (Circuit 48.) cutting through the insulation of, and shorting to, the Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) wire (Circuit 395) or the spark output (SPOUT) wire (Circuit 929) near the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) 60-pin connector. A protruding wire from Splice 145 may also cause the same concern as the wire strand shorts to the PIP, SPOUT, or the foil wrap surrounding the drain wire..."
Source: by Ford via Chilton
The code may have been set if you disconnected the battery.
Clear the code the normal way with STI wire but do not disconnect the battery.
Check codes to make sure it is gone.
Drive it then recheck codes.
DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODE (DTC) 213: CHECK FOR POWER TO PCM
Key On Engine Running 213 code:
NOTE:
Before proceeding with this Pinpoint Test, verify that the base timing check in Diagnostic Subroutine has been performed.
Key off.
Disconnect Powertrain Control Module (PCM). Inspect for damaged or pushed out pins, corrosion, loose wires, etc. Service as necessary.
PCM disconnected. (be careful, I hate to touch that connector!)
Key on, engine off.
Measure voltage between Test Pin 37 and Pin 40.
Measure voltage between Test Pin 57 and Pin 60.
Is each voltage greater than 10.5 volts?
If not;
see DTC 211 in TSB 95-15-11 for possible open/short location
Hesitation, Stumble, Stall, Miss, No Start, No Spark and/or Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) 211 TSB 95-15-11 for 93-95 (Shorts in Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) & Spark Output (SPOUT); "..The symptoms may occur during any drive mode or at idle. These concerns may be caused by the shielding drain wire (Circuit 48.) cutting through the insulation of, and shorting to, the Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) wire (Circuit 395) or the spark output (SPOUT) wire (Circuit 929) near the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) 60-pin connector. A protruding wire from Splice 145 may also cause the same concern as the wire strand shorts to the PIP, SPOUT, or the foil wrap surrounding the drain wire..."
Source: by Ford via Chilton
yo,
for:
EEC Connector Pin Outs, Bronco & Ford Truck & Van: 4.9, 460, 5.0, 5.8; miesk5 Note, see his Connector Pin Diagram Link above)
Source: by Ryan M (Fireguy50) at http://fordfuelinjection.com/truckpinouts.html
For the EEC Connector Pin Diagram
Connector Pin Diagram & Overview
![]()
for:
EEC Connector Pin Outs, Bronco & Ford Truck & Van: 4.9, 460, 5.0, 5.8; miesk5 Note, see his Connector Pin Diagram Link above)
Source: by Ryan M (Fireguy50) at http://fordfuelinjection.com/truckpinouts.html
For the EEC Connector Pin Diagram
Connector Pin Diagram & Overview
yo,
The code may have been set if you disconnected the battery.
Clear the code the normal way with STI wire but do not disconnect the battery.
Check codes to make sure it is gone.
Drive it then recheck codes.
thanks for jumping on my thread miesk5. Hoping not to sound like a d/a, what is the "normal way" to reset the code? I ground the STI wire when i do the KOER check; is that what "clears" the code? I will perform the voltage checks as prescribed tonight and follow-up with results. thanks.
mkt2488, I'm with you brother. I LOVE it when miesk5 takes interest in one of my threads, and adds his knowledge and expertise!
I believe that he is referring to the "normal way" to clear codes is this:
To clear codes from memory, simply terminate the KOEO test before all codes are finished being displayed by removing the jumper wire at the self-test electrical connector.
The alternative way to clear codes is to remove the battery cable. That will also clear the fuel trim tables. Miesk5 recommends that you do not pull the cable, and while I do not know exactly why... *I* would follow his directions.
I believe that he is referring to the "normal way" to clear codes is this:
To clear codes from memory, simply terminate the KOEO test before all codes are finished being displayed by removing the jumper wire at the self-test electrical connector.
The alternative way to clear codes is to remove the battery cable. That will also clear the fuel trim tables. Miesk5 recommends that you do not pull the cable, and while I do not know exactly why... *I* would follow his directions.
Can you clear codes by turning off your code reader before the KOEO test completes, or do you have to use the jumper wire method? My code reader suggests removing the battery cable...mkt2488, I'm with you brother. I LOVE it when miesk5 takes interest in one of my threads, and adds his knowledge and expertise!
I believe that he is referring to the "normal way" to clear codes is this:
To clear codes from memory, simply terminate the KOEO test before all codes are finished being displayed by removing the jumper wire at the self-test electrical connector.
The alternative way to clear codes is to remove the battery cable. That will also clear the fuel trim tables. Miesk5 recommends that you do not pull the cable, and while I do not know exactly why... *I* would follow his directions.
Probably... try it! Then pull codes and see if they are gone. If not then use a jumper wire and pull codes the old fashoined way. Then clear them the old fashioned way.Can you clear codes by turning off your code reader before the KOEO test completes, or do you have to use the jumper wire method? My code reader suggests removing the battery cable...
How to pull OBD1 codes in your driveway
http://www.fordforumsonline.com/for...nostic-codes-obd1-pre-1996-fords.html#post413
yo,
Yw and
thanks Joe for jumping in here!
As for the BO Box, Jermil may purchase one; I'll post the Thread here later when I find it.
But most testing can be done by figuring out what pins the box is checking such as vehicle power & Grounds
Yw and
thanks Joe for jumping in here!
As for the BO Box, Jermil may purchase one; I'll post the Thread here later when I find it.
But most testing can be done by figuring out what pins the box is checking such as vehicle power & Grounds
yo,
and another @ e bay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford...Z300554218537QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools
but cover is closed and that implies....to me.. that // is cable inside? etc.
and another @ e bay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford...Z300554218537QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools
but cover is closed and that implies....to me.. that // is cable inside? etc.
I cleared the code as directed. I also read the voltages on the EEC harness with it being disconnected from the EEC. The voltage readings from 37 to 40 and 57 to 60 were both 12.17VDC. Another tidbit of info that I'd like to add is that when I bought the Bronco from the previous owner, he stated that he had to "bypass" the theft system for some unknown reason. I'm not exactly sure how the theft systems works or how one would go about bypassing it, however I wonder if it could be tied to my issue. Any ideas?
P.S. I also checked that the pins and wires were not compromised, and they all looked clean.
P.S. I also checked that the pins and wires were not compromised, and they all looked clean.
21 - 40 of 216 Posts
- This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Bronco Forum - Full Size Ford Bronco Forum
A forum community dedicated to all Ford Bronco owners and enthusiasts including the new 2021 Ford Bronco. Join the discussion about specs, photos, news, pricing, modifications, maintenance, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Recommended Communities
